Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

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Senshi
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Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Senshi » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:20 am

Most places I search suggest two handed weapons are not worth losing out on the other options available.

Is this true? Or does arelith has modifiers that make them work well?
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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Wethrinea » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:11 am

Large weapons (Excluding double weapons for some strange reason), give +2 to AB, and recieves extra dmg from Barb Rage.

That is pretty much it. In exchange, you loose out on a shield, a second weapon, and the stat slots that come with it.

There are generally few two-handers around for that reason.
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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Good Character » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:33 am

Generally, AC > AB. Unless you have HP to tank and/or massive damage to take the approach of "best defense is a good offense", it's not worth it.

Barbarian, palemaster, monk, and weaponmaster make the most out of 2-handers.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Senshi » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:45 am

Thats a shame.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Drowble Oh Seven » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:24 pm

Just an aside - If, like me, you're in love with the look of two handed weapons then the bastard sword has you covered. It counts as a two-handed weapon for weapon focus purposes, but can itself be one-handed and used with a shield. The result being that y'can grab exotic proficiency, take all your weapon focus/specialization feats in two-handed, and swap freely between using a bastard sword / shield when you need AC and whatever outlandish 2H weapon you want when you've got something to absorb damage for you. Losing a feat to do it isn't exactly optimal, but it's certainly manageable on most builds.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by ZombieDuck » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:27 pm

Generally two-handers lose the 6 AC(+3 Tower shield/+4 Large shield) in favour of +2 AB and a bit more dmg(Which at 14 STR mod is typically 7+1d4) compared to one hander/shield, but as mentioned there are some builds that can use them and have high enought AC without taking too much dmg.

Melee Palemaster tends to have low AB/Dmg and high AC/Defense(From Crit/Sneak/Stun/Hold/Paralyze immunity), so to them +2 AB and more dmg might be worth it.

Barbarians can just go all in with their high HP(+Temp HP and possible regenation from rage), Damage Reduction and the fact that their offense goes so high that everything tends to die very quickly.

Some Divine builds can also go two-handing becouse they get AC from Divine Shield and the divine dmg from Divine Might, which gets the x1.5 treatment that Str gets(Also Dmg from Divine Might goes through all DR/Damage Immunity).

The safest way to go two-handing is to be Cavalier to get access to Bastard Sword/Katana or take Exotic Weapon Profiency and not go WM. This will place your weapon focus group to those two one-handers and plenty of two-handers, so you can switch as needed.http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Weapons#Weap ... mary_Chart
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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Deryliss » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:36 pm

This is basically what I've been doing on my hexblade. B-Sword and Shield for solo, Falchion for group play. Also allows me to use Steelbreaker Sledge and Gravekeeper's Repose when facing the kinds of enemies those weapons are good against.

It still doesn't make 2H weapons *optimal*, and honestly for this kind of play I should probably be doing Polearm (Spear and Shield for AC, Halberd/Scythe/Trident for Damage), but I really wanted access to Steelbreaker and Repose as part of my character's specialty.

Worst part is, damage isn't even all that great. The only thing 2H weapons have over 1H is a bit more base damage (higher dice, netting about +2 or +3 damage on average) and 50% more damage from strength (which usually means +7 or +8 damage at max), along with the Arelith-Unique +2 AB.

Meanwhile there are so many ways to get flat bonuses to your damage that the gap becomes less significant. Add in things like monk dips for flurry of blows on some weapons, dual wielding, etc in order to increase APR and things don't look good for two handed.

As mentioned before, the premier build for 2 handed is Barbarian. The extra 2h damage while raging is nice, and +1 APR from Thundering Rage is <3. Throw in Weaponmaster and you have a blender.

Sadly this is also the reason why we're unlikely to see any buff/change to make 2H more appealing. Anything that could make barbarian builds better needs to be handled with care. Maybe we'll see more 2H specialty weapons in the future like Steelbreaker and Repose to give 2H users more of a toolbox that may be worth the incoveniences.
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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Barkoneus » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:02 pm

Over in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=33867

I propose adding a 2H damage bonus to deep fighter (to offset the fact that 2H fighter doesn't take advantage of deep fighter's shield AC bonus).

Since the fighter bonus damage doesn't kick in until 23, this would be a way to help 2H fighting out (albeit for only deep fighters), without buffing barbarian any more.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Archnon » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:02 pm

Let's not forget the polearm Prof which eta you quarterstaff/spear+shield/halberd or trident. It is a great way to go for versatility.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Jagel » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:51 pm

With weapon groups two-handing is a thing without giving up AC.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Curve » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:09 pm

The answer is complicated. As stated above there are weapon groups that benefit characters that are not WMs and that is a lot of builds. You also have to consider -guard's effect on PvE making the lack of AC and boon of extra damage a zero loss if you have someone to level with. Not everyone can find a leveling buddy of course, but a lot of people can and do. Then consider tactics in PvP, the power of heal potions, and pray, and greater restro, damage reduction and percentage immunity, and potentially having a cleric pal. I'd say that two handed weapon users are in a really good spot. The skill ceiling is much higher for two handed weapon users than a lot of folks think.

All that being said if you are soloing it kinda sucks past level 18ish with a two hander.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:14 am

Sorry I might be a noob but when I wield a two handed weapon it shows only +1 bonus ab, but why the post there assumes they get +2?
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:55 am

Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:14 am
Sorry I might be a noob but when I wield a two handed weapon it shows only +1 bonus ab, but why the post there assumes they get +2?
because they get +1 not +2

2h sacrifices defense for offense which can be devastating if built properly. classes that can get away with less or no ac ( barbarians, hexblades, palemasters ) etc. it's a lot easier to play a 1h ac character and a lot more forgiving hence why its logical for it be less popular, but the options for 2h are absolutely there. ultimately if you are to choose to play a 2h it's best done in a group since your friends can make up for your reduced defense both in pvp and pve.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Arienette » Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:11 pm

Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:14 am
Sorry I might be a noob but when I wield a two handed weapon it shows only +1 bonus ab, but why the post there assumes they get +2?
Because when this post was made (well over 1 year ago, you got a +2 AB bonus with a 2handed weapon.

At some point in the last year, this was reduced to a +1 bonus.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:50 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 7:11 pm
Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:14 am
Sorry I might be a noob but when I wield a two handed weapon it shows only +1 bonus ab, but why the post there assumes they get +2?
Because when this post was made (well over 1 year ago, you got a +2 AB bonus with a 2handed weapon.

At some point in the last year, this was reduced to a +1 bonus.
I see, thank you for explaining it to me, there must be a good reason to turn it to +1 AB I guess.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Arienette » Mon Sep 05, 2022 4:17 pm

There was concern about “AB bloat” where people were running around with 55 AB and just wrecking everyone.

Several things were nerfed at that time including the 2hand AB.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:56 pm

To make 2h great again, i think of two ideas:
1) It would be cool if Power Attack gives double bonus for two-handed weapons, like they are in nwn 2.
2) make tower shield -1 AB because the way you wield it will hinder your attack, also make it not just purely upgrade from large shield, but a trade off from offensive to defensive side.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Good Character » Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:14 pm

While yes you cannot play a 2-hander with every class, 2-handed weapons remain fantastic and the keystone of PvP S-tier 1v1 builds. They possess the 1.5x STR modifier; that usually means another 7 damage for builds that use 2-handers.

They hardly need a buff when you account for the classes that cater to them.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:45 am

Good Character wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 4:14 pm
While yes you cannot play a 2-hander with every class, 2-handed weapons remain fantastic and the keystone of PvP S-tier 1v1 builds. They possess the 1.5x STR modifier; that usually means another 7 damage for builds that use 2-handers.

They hardly need a buff when you account for the classes that cater to them.
Excluding Barbarian, I don't think trading 7 damage for 6 AC is a good choice at all because AB/AC gain is noliner, you either get it as high as possible or you leave it at low and use other method to boost your survivability. Since i haven't touched PvP, mind elaborate why 2h weapons is the keysword of many PvP builds?

Also I think my advice about power attack and tower shield is reasonable:
1) trading 5 AB to 5dam is pretty bad idea and seldomly worth it, so 3.5e changed it so 2h weapons get 10dam instead of 5 (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Power_Attack);
2) tower shield is too good and shall get a malus but not as much as they did in 3.5e (they are -2 ab there https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tower_Shield)
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Good Character » Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:11 pm

Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:45 am
Excluding Barbarian, I don't think trading 7 damage for 6 AC is a good choice at all because AB/AC gain is noliner, you either get it as high as possible or you leave it at low and use other method to boost your survivability. Since i haven't touched PvP, mind elaborate why 2h weapons is the keysword of many PvP builds?

Also I think my advice about power attack and tower shield is reasonable:
1) trading 5 AB to 5dam is pretty bad idea and seldomly worth it, so 3.5e changed it so 2h weapons get 10dam instead of 5 (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Power_Attack);
2) tower shield is too good and shall get a malus but not as much as they did in 3.5e (they are -2 ab there https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Tower_Shield)
Even a single AB is huge and it's why the bonus was lowered from +2 to +1, and as mentioned, the STR bonus that comes with it. Additionally, Improved Disarm (which favors larger weapons) further bumps your AB against certain weapons while against most it's a free CC that flat-foots for a second and removes a person's weapon from their hand. Third, large weapons inherently do more base damage one-handed weapons. Lastly, all this damage is open to being enhanced by critical strikes.

In PvP, it's solely about who dies first: is it the build that's hitting someone consistently for about 60-90 HP maybe once per round yet has to eat through their temp HP, DR/DI or massive sustain, or the build hitting someone for 120-180HP every attack?

Other builds that benefit from 2-handed play:
Seeker cleric.
Warpriest cleric.
Fighter/weaponmaster.
DEX pathless spellsword 2hander.
Barbarian.
Blackguard.
STR ranger.
Certain Divine Champion builds.

Why your ideas are frankly bad:
1. If we ever get to the point where people are openly trading 5 AB (essentially a 30% lower chance to hit someone) for 10 damage, we have a serious issue. It's either ganking someone unprepared, or that build is extremely overloaded with AB.

2. Tower shields are not the source of the highest AC in the game. They're usually a desperate attempt to grab more AC. There's no need to apply such a random nerf just to make two-handed weapons stronger. To give you some insight: the best shield was the Adamantine Shield for years, yet they added in the Woe Aegis which was another +1 AC.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:45 pm

Good Character wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:11 pm
2. Tower shields are not the source of the highest AC in the game. They're usually a desperate attempt to grab more AC. There's no need to apply such a random nerf just to make two-handed weapons stronger. To give you some insight: the best shield was the Adamantine Shield for years, yet they added in the Woe Aegis which was another +1 AC.
I'm not quite sure about this... sorry for not playing on the server for long time if i'm incorrect. Do you mean tower shield (adamantine) when you say adamantine shield? because adamantine large shield is 2+3=5ac and adamantine tower shield is 3+3=6 ac, tower shield is still a superor choice towards large shield because the extra 1AC i think?
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Good Character » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:48 pm

Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:45 pm
Good Character wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:11 pm
2. Tower shields are not the source of the highest AC in the game. They're usually a desperate attempt to grab more AC. There's no need to apply such a random nerf just to make two-handed weapons stronger. To give you some insight: the best shield was the Adamantine Shield for years, yet they added in the Woe Aegis which was another +1 AC.
I'm not quite sure about this... sorry for not playing on the server for long time if i'm incorrect. Do you mean tower shield (adamantine) when you say adamantine shield? because adamantine large shield is 2+3=5ac and adamantine tower shield is 3+3=6 ac, tower shield is still a superor choice towards large shield because the extra 1AC i think?
Tower shield. Adamantine gets 6 AC like you mentioned but Woe Aegis is 7.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:50 pm

Good Character wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:48 pm
Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:45 pm
Good Character wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 3:11 pm
2. Tower shields are not the source of the highest AC in the game. They're usually a desperate attempt to grab more AC. There's no need to apply such a random nerf just to make two-handed weapons stronger. To give you some insight: the best shield was the Adamantine Shield for years, yet they added in the Woe Aegis which was another +1 AC.
I'm not quite sure about this... sorry for not playing on the server for long time if i'm incorrect. Do you mean tower shield (adamantine) when you say adamantine shield? because adamantine large shield is 2+3=5ac and adamantine tower shield is 3+3=6 ac, tower shield is still a superor choice towards large shield because the extra 1AC i think?
Tower shield. Adamantine gets 6 AC like you mentioned but Woe Aegis is 7.
Yeah i'm not thinking about Aegis, just tower shield in general because it's just purly better than large shield, therefore SRD gives them -ab malus to balance large/tower shield i think, whch i think shall be implemented here too.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Good Character » Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:55 pm

Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:50 pm

Yeah i'm not thinking about Aegis, just tower shield in general because it's just purly better than large shield, therefore SRD gives them -ab malus to balance large/tower shield i think, whch i think shall be implemented here too.
Large shields aren't objectively worse. Some classes are incapable of using a tower shield without maluses, but because their class abilities would be too strong with the extra AC. Also, Enchanted Shield is as good as an Adamantine Tower Shield.

You would seriously have to put up some numbers (i.e. average AB 1-hand vs. 2-hand, average AC w/ shield vs. no shield vs. DEX, average damage 1-hand vs. 2-hand, etc.) to justify these nerfs, and it would have to be for all classes.

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Re: Are two handed melee weapons worth it?

Post by Helsing » Sun Sep 11, 2022 5:07 pm

Good Character wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:55 pm
Helsing wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:50 pm

Yeah i'm not thinking about Aegis, just tower shield in general because it's just purly better than large shield, therefore SRD gives them -ab malus to balance large/tower shield i think, whch i think shall be implemented here too.
Large shields aren't objectively worse. Some classes are incapable of using a tower shield without maluses, but because their class abilities would be too strong with the extra AC. Also, Enchanted Shield is as good as an Adamantine Tower Shield.

You would seriously have to put up some numbers (i.e. average AB 1-hand vs. 2-hand, average AC w/ shield vs. no shield vs. DEX, average damage 1-hand vs. 2-hand, etc.) to justify these nerfs, and it would have to be for all classes.
I cannot find enchanted shield on wiki, is it a random loot or just not shown on wiki? if it's a random loot imo it shouldn't be count because there's no steady way to get it... Also you remind me of the fact that parrying with one-hand weapon is just worse than wielding tower shield because you invested 30 parry to only get same or less AC if wielding normal tower shield(or aegis), so it make more sense to give tower shield -1 ab.
Hazard wrote: Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

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