Arelith

Hello folks,

I'm wondering if there are any standard / meta builds that use IB early?

I'd like to be able to use it while levelling and not feel obliged to save it for a late-epic tumble dump. I played and loved rogue / IB / SD before it was changed, using IB to get the extra BAB as well. If possible, I'd like something with reasonable solo ability, I've levelled solo pure rogue before so more or less playable solo than that would be absolutely fine!

I looked at fighter 8 IB 3 SD 19, which uses IB to take SD required skills and it was a nice soloist and all rounder on the PGCC, but it also seemed like a strict downgrade from fighter 8 rogue 3 SD 19, which gets +5 weapons via rogue stuff, or even fighter 6 rogue 5 SD 19, for the level 24 breakpoint for all of the nice things. Swashbuckler worked fine instead of fighter in all above builds, but still straight upgraded by not taking IB and taking rogue instead.

Thank you for your considerations, I understand the answer might simply be "no, just play rogue" but I'm wondering if there's a gem in the rough that I hadn't thought of.

Best is probably rogue 19 / fighter or swash 8 / IB 3?

Could sub assassin for rogue and not get the +5 weapon but do get 20+ assassin damage, it's probably not better but would be fun.

Otherwise I think you're looking at majority ranger or barbarian with a late game IB dip as the most ideal use of the class.

The most important take here is this.

Eyeliner wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:43 pm

majority ranger ..... with a late game IB dip as the most ideal use of the class.

But really, the IB class is just not good right now, no matter what you do with it. just to clarify.

Having played one I think it's okay (not overpoweringly great, but okay) tacked on to 19 rogue as the wound stacks add some nice damage when you can't sneak attack and rogues have enough AC to hang in there while the stacks add up, but I don't think it's worth basing a character around that and it's more of a PVE than PVP thing. In the end I relevelled as a 24/6 with all the grenades and didn't miss the IB levels much.

Crippling throw isn't really worth trying and arcane bleed is pretty good situationally. Eviscerate seems never worth using, just better to keep attacking. It's certainly an enticing class and appealing idea so hope it'll get some attention again .

Thank you for your replies, I'll see what the future brings for IB.

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

Appreciate being asked but it's difficult to say without knowing what abilities or benefits a 5 level version would bring.

Make it 6 levels then so you can pick between IB goodies or fighter feats in the 24 rogue builds.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:28 am

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

I'd play a ftr 6 IB 5 EKD 19 under old IB, new IB would require 7 ftr minimum.

4 levels of IB allows for a late epic tumble dump while still using the class for levelling, 5 levels allows it to be used to enable 16 BAB as well as the late epic tumble dump, like I did previously with a rogue 10 IB 4 SD 16.

Old IB used to give improved sneak attack feats, which stacked up to 10 with SD, but nowadays you'd be able to go full 19 SD without being penalised by IB.

If the bleed became somewhat better I would love to try some kind of improved expertise whirlwind attack epic dodge type build. Like a distraction tank to pull aggro, could work well in conjunction with sneakers.

Eyeliner wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:38 am

Appreciate being asked but it's difficult to say without knowing what abilities or benefits a 5 level version would bring.

What if they don't offer much mechanically beyond being a tumble/skill dump levels and having an extra sneak dice?

All the essential mechanical stuff is offered by the 3rd level of IB.

Looking for feedback and approaches such as this:

MRFTW wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:20 pm

I'd play a ftr 6 IB 5 EKD 19 under old IB, new IB would require 7 ftr minimum.

4 levels of IB allows for a late epic tumble dump while still using the class for levelling, 5 levels allows it to be used to enable 16 BAB as well as the late epic tumble dump, like I did previously with a rogue 10 IB 4 SD 16.

Old IB used to give improved sneak attack feats, which stacked up to 10 with SD, but nowadays you'd be able to go full 19 SD without being penalised by IB.

Perhaps not so much as 5 but an extra level? With the possibility to choose from a small list? ...say improved sneak, an extra (1) bleeding point, or something defensive? The bleeding seems* hard to balance because a few points can look like a small addition, but after 6 APR it begins to be a meat grinder.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:01 am

What if they don't offer much mechanically beyond being a tumble/skill dump levels and having an extra sneak dice?

When you talk about tumble dump it sounds like a warrior archetype but the class flavor sounds rogueish. But then ranger who is also warrior/rogue and would have good synergy, is penalized in the feat reqs. I dunno man what is this class even supposed to be

Kenji wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:01 am

What if they don't offer much mechanically beyond being a tumble/skill dump levels and having an extra sneak dice?

All the essential mechanical stuff is offered by the 3rd level of IB.

I mean, what are you thinking because you seem to have some builds in mind that take more creativity than 19 rogue/3 IB/8 fighter or swash or 27 ranger/3 IB which I think are probably the IBs being played most right now and neither would be improved by a 5 level dip?

I doubt anyone would take 25 rogue/5 IB for example as it has no discipline. I don't usually go for divine dips so I'm sure there's something I'm not considering along those lines? I'm all for making more of the class but I'm not getting the advantage at the moment. The EKD example is kind of interesting but I do think it's already a class with limited appeal so hopefully any change wouldn't limit best options to certain races too.

Also think it's currently a class that seems like it should be for dexers but might actually be much better for strength concepts, so doubling down on the benefits to the latter seems conceptually the wrong way to go (to me). Like in the example above, EKD and IB seem thematically opposed (stereotypical EKD is a heavy armor dwarf rooted in place, stereotypical IB is cloth wearing and a flurry of blades) and if they have accidental synergy, okay, but in my mind IB really ought to be complimenting swashbucklers and rogues and finesee weaponmasters... I dunno.

Trying not to sound negative here just not quite getting it, thanks!

Kenji wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:28 am

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

I still think that even under that circumstance 27ranger 3IB is the only thing I would even consider looking at. IB is all about TWF, and currently no class should be doing that except ranger. The best thing that can happen for IB is that Dual-wield Mastery gets nerfed to +1 ab while the penalty for everyone is reduced to -1.

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:36 pm

Kenji wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:28 am

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

I still think that even under that circumstance 27ranger 3IB is the only thing I would even consider looking at. IB is all about TWF, and currently no class should be doing that except ranger. The best thing that can happen for IB is that Dual-wield Mastery gets nerfed to +1 ab while the penalty for everyone is reduced to -1.

You really think TWF is useless on non-rangers?

I play a dual wielding rogue and sure the penalty to hit is awful but I always assumed the volume of attacks made up for it .

Waldo52 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:47 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:36 pm

Kenji wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:28 am

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

I still think that even under that circumstance 27ranger 3IB is the only thing I would even consider looking at. IB is all about TWF, and currently no class should be doing that except ranger. The best thing that can happen for IB is that Dual-wield Mastery gets nerfed to +1 ab while the penalty for everyone is reduced to -1.

You really think TWF is useless on non-rangers?

I play a dual wielding rogue and sure the penalty to hit is awful but I always assumed the volume of attacks made up for it .

Yes, I think it's currently still not worth on none-rangers. Rangers not only has a *bonus* feat for off-setting the -2 ab, rangers also get +3 ac when dual-wielding and then +1 ac skleen for 4 ac. On top of that your vamp regen scales with ab and apr basically - the more you hit. These reasons are why Ranger wants to Dual-wield while quite literally everyone else is better off with 2h or sword+shield. I dont know what you're playing but a TWF deep rogue should have very very low ab, relatively low ac too compared to your average meta div cots et cetra, and low saves. What you do get that is cool, is crippling strike build with two-sided sword and a wonderful set-up being a shred machine when guarded in pve, but no, I dont think anyone should dual-wield except ranger right now, when speaking about end-game pvp.

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:36 am

Waldo52 wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:47 pm

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:36 pm

I still think that even under that circumstance 27ranger 3IB is the only thing I would even consider looking at. IB is all about TWF, and currently no class should be doing that except ranger. The best thing that can happen for IB is that Dual-wield Mastery gets nerfed to +1 ab while the penalty for everyone is reduced to -1.

You really think TWF is useless on non-rangers?

I play a dual wielding rogue and sure the penalty to hit is awful but I always assumed the volume of attacks made up for it .

Yes, I think it's currently still not worth on none-rangers. Rangers not only has a *bonus* feat for off-setting the -2 ab, rangers also get +3 ac when dual-wielding and then +1 ac skleen for 4 ac. On top of that your vamp regen scales with ab and apr basically - the more you hit. These reasons are why Ranger wants to Dual-wield while quite literally everyone else is better off with 2h or sword+shield. I dont know what you're playing but a TWF deep rogue should have very very low ab, relatively low ac too compared to your average meta div cots et cetra, and low saves. What you do get that is cool, is crippling strike build with two-sided sword and a wonderful set-up being a shred machine when guarded in pve, but no, I dont think anyone should dual-wield except ranger right now, when speaking about end-game pvp.

Good to know.

I do a blackguard 5 rogue 25. I never wanted to be overly optimal with my build because it's a little mean spirited for a notorious thief and madman to be overpowered. But I did (perhaps incorrectly) assume TWF was a powerful option. That said I've noticed that the AB with TWF is pretty sad at level 30.

My experience in high level PvP has been an extremely mixed bag, but I'm pretty much commited at this point because Ambidexterity and TWF were my first two feats. I Find that this fighting style really helps me against low AC opponents, especially those crippled by traps or grenades. Against the right target at the right time it feels incredible, but otherwise it's just a lot of missed attacks.

Dual wielding is still good on a rogue and preferable in some situations like doing max damage ASAP against enemies who don’t have crazy high AC. Mages for example probably wont have 70 AC in most cases and you will want to put them down as quickly as possible.

You can switch to 1H and shield when AB matters most and it doesn’t have to be either or. Though if you’re a divine rogue the feat crunch may be too much to do everything.

Eyeliner wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:53 pm

Dual wielding is still good on a rogue and preferable in some situations like doing max damage ASAP against enemies who don’t have crazy high AC. Mages for example probably wont have 70 AC in most cases and you will want to put them down as quickly as possible.

You can switch to 1H and shield when AB matters most and it doesn’t have to be either or. Though if you’re a divine rogue the feat crunch may be too much to do everything.

Yeah!!!!

Now I feel better about myself.

Kenji wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:28 am

Let's assume IB levels are expanded to 5 levels, how would any of you build your characters then?

SS with early tumble dump - basically going from 25 SS/SB to 25 SS/IB - I tried going 23 SS/4 SB/3 IB with the three IB being from 16th-18th, but the loss of 2CL hurt too much imo. The IB abilities aren't -great- even if the 2 min CD breach is nice, but having things light up in a cloud of blood did amuse me greatly.