Crossbow Assassin?

[Void]

I'd like to know if it is possible to make a crossbow assassin character in a sane way.

Human or Tiefling, High int, High Dex, minimum multiclassing.

I played something like that in nwn2, but it looks like on arelith everything is designed against idea of a sniper assassin with a crossbow.

No HiPS, no manyshot, rapid shot does not work with crossbows, -assassinate does not work with ranged weapons, hidden danger does not apply to crossbows... maybe there's a more.

Thoughts?

A basic rogue/assassin will likely "sorta" work, but may be weaker than a rogue(30) with a shortbow, due to loss of bombs, hitpoints and skillpoints.

[Watchful Glare]

I've played a ranged assassin. It can be good for RP, but mechanically? If you're looking to, as it is put sometimes, 'be competitive' against optimized builds?

You're better trying something else, because your experience is going to be a frustrating one. Anything with damage resistance and defensive essences (which anyone prepared for PvP or invested in a long-term character will have) will nullify your character completely. I don't mean 'mitigate' or 'diminish', I mean nullify it. They would be able to stand still and use a healkit every now and then while you plink them for 5~10 damage, emoting a yawn at you.

Using a drow crossbow you will be able to pierce DR which will make you mildly threatening to any mage that's not a divination specialist, but mages are always almost certain to have a cast of Energy Buffer on them even if they don't have defensive essences, buffed with Abjuration focuses, which will take your elemental damage from crafted bolts away, which is half of the sources of your damage if not more.

As a consequence you have no kill pressure against anyone that's prepared. From that point on, they can timestop and Hellball/Gruin/Avascular/IGMS you to death in one go, because you won't be having more than 400~500 HP at most. Or timestop and walk away from you. Your AC will also be lacking, meaning any summoned creature is going to hit you, making you need to avoid getting pinned down not to be killed.

Your poisons will not work with ranged weapons.

You will be able to take on a mage when you catch him off guard, or other folks with no damage resistance or defensive essences when you catch them off guard if you show up buffed. But then again the same can be said of any other archetypes in the game with the exception they'd also be able to stand more of a chance in a fully warded vs fully warded situation.

Also, leveling will be a pain. Since your AC is low and you're using a ranged weapon mobs will disengage and try to target you. Even if someone uses guard on you, and you stand beside them, ranged attack accrues attack of opportunity and they will smack you anyways.

If you're close enough, and someone else is attacking them and you can get sneak attacks off, then that would make it more effective but it's almost a necessity. Cornersealthing too, otherwise.

My advice is... You're going to have a bad time. But your mileage may vary. Perhaps you'll have a different experience or play it differently.

[Void]

I've played a ranged assassin. It can be good for RP, but mechanically? If you're looking to, as it is put sometimes, 'be competitive' against optimized builds?

I've leveled rogue 30 archer pickpocket before so I'm not really looking to get into pvp scene (it pretty much does not exist for me anyway). But that archer was VERY weak, only ever shone as a support, and relied heavily on grenades, which will be nowhere as efficient on assassin, as assassin does not get the bomb buff.

So I'm mostly looking for PVE, radiant quest system or maybe pretending to be diablo archer npc again.
And occasional death attack, given that assassin no longer gets HiPS.

Worst case scenario, I'll either give up or maybe make another boring dual-wielder.

[Waldo52]

I've played a ranged assassin. It can be good for RP, but mechanically? If you're looking to, as it is put sometimes, 'be competitive' against optimized builds?

You're better trying something else, because your experience is going to be a frustrating one. Anything with damage resistance and defensive essences (which anyone prepared for PvP or invested in a long-term character will have) will nullify your character completely. I don't mean 'mitigate' or 'diminish', I mean nullify it. They would be able to stand still and use a healkit every now and then while you plink them for 5~10 damage, emoting a yawn at you.

Using a drow crossbow you will be able to pierce DR which will make you mildly threatening to any mage that's not a divination specialist, but mages are always almost certain to have a cast of Energy Buffer on them even if they don't have defensive essences, buffed with Abjuration focuses, which will take your elemental damage from crafted bolts away, which is half of the sources of your damage if not more.

As a consequence you have no kill pressure against anyone that's prepared. From that point on, they can timestop and Hellball/Gruin/Avascular/IGMS you to death in one go, because you won't be having more than 400~500 HP at most. Or timestop and walk away from you. Your AC will also be lacking, meaning any summoned creature is going to hit you, making you need to avoid getting pinned down not to be killed.

Your poisons will not work with ranged weapons.

You will be able to take on a mage when you catch him off guard, or other folks with no damage resistance or defensive essences when you catch them off guard if you show up buffed. But then again the same can be said of any other archetypes in the game with the exception they'd also be able to stand more of a chance in a fully warded vs fully warded situation.

Also, leveling will be a pain. Since your AC is low and you're using a ranged weapon mobs will disengage and try to target you. Even if someone uses guard on you, and you stand beside them, ranged attack accrues attack of opportunity and they will smack you anyways.

If you're close enough, and someone else is attacking them and you can get sneak attacks off, then that would make it more effective but it's almost a necessity. Cornersealthing too, otherwise.

My advice is... You're going to have a bad time. But your mileage may vary. Perhaps you'll have a different experience or play it differently.

I know I'm not the OP but I've got a question: if ranged assassins are so bad, are ranged rogues just as crappy? I was planning on playing a rogue 25 archer ranger 5 with a buddy soon.

[Void]

I know I'm not the OP but I've got a question: if ranged assassins are so bad, are ranged rogues just as crappy? I was planning on playing a rogue 25 archer ranger 5 with a buddy soon.

Like I said, I played rogue bowman before. Rogue with a shortbow from 1 to 30.

There's not much point in having archer levels, because you'll lose a turn of blinding speed and that can hurt. Blinding speed is great and you'll want to have as much of it as you can. You'll get longbow access, sure, but longbow is not a rogue weapon, so you don't get any bonus ab to it. You'll also want a bow and not a crossbow, because rapid shot does not work on crossbows, and rapid shot means two high ab attacks instead of one, which almost doubles your damage on sneak attacks. It is a ranged version of dual-wield, pretty much. Two attacks instead of one, at -2 ab.

Rogue 30 or a deep rogue is gonna be dependent on consumables, and if you find a shop that sells certain cheap consumable once you figure out how amazing that thing is, you'll be carrying 50 or 100 of it, and use it to turn over a battle in your favor. This stuff is easier in UD, amusingly.

Rogue bowman is amazing when you're paired with a melee or high ac character that can -guard you. If you do that, you'll become Diablo 2 archer girl. Alone - you'll be relying on grenades (and not the ones from shady deals, mind you, those are overpriced) to the point where you you'd probably want to build a shrine to the god of grenades and worship grenades fervently. All hail the grenades.

Basically, solo you won't be bulldozing through dungeons by yourself, instead you're likely to end up carefully studying enemy positions, and picking them off one by one, then running away to hide behind a corner. It is challenging and not for everybody.

Oh, and by the way, ranged sneak attacks triger at close distance only. 10 meters or so. You'll stay out of the melee range, but you won't be sneak attacking half way across the map.

---------

So, long story short - with a buddy it is gonna be fun, especially if the buddy can -guard. Without a buddy it will be a sad experience, because you'll be able to go anywhere with high sneak, but would have hard time fighting things personally. Anything that gets into melee range takes eternity to kill, by the way, even if you decide to take Improve Expertise as a backup. You also can't really advance using pickpocket xp, because you only get a small fraction of combat xp for pickpocket attempts.

[Eyeliner]

The best crossbow sniper is probably going to be a zen archery cleric, ideally drow or evil elf with the drow xbow, and with divine power. I wouldn't mix assassin levels with that though, monk is ideal or possibly ranger if alignment is an issue.

Maybe something like 21 ranger/4 fighter/5 assassin could work for a sniper and rely on favored enemy damage over sneak attacks but it's a build I'm so uninterested in I can't comment further.

A ranged assassin isn't out of the question but you're way better off with sling or throwing weapons for the hidden danger bonus. You can basically cast endless darkness clouds and be a death attack turret in PVE and it works pretty well. No -assassinate of course but with high assassin investment you can get a death attack that will paralyze fairly often. Myself I would still focus almost entirely on melee and take a single throwing or missile weapon feat to make my own ammo so I'd have that as an option but not my main "thing".

[Void]

The best crossbow sniper is probably going to be a zen archery cleric, ideally drow or evil elf with the drow xbow, and with divine power. I wouldn't mix assassin levels with that though, monk is ideal or possibly ranger if alignment is an issue.

Maybe something like 21 ranger/4 fighter/5 assassin could work for a sniper and rely on favored enemy damage over sneak attacks but it's a build I'm so uninterested in I can't comment further.

A ranged assassin isn't out of the question but you're way better off with sling or throwing weapons for the hidden danger bonus. You can basically cast endless darkness clouds and be a death attack turret in PVE and it works pretty well. No -assassinate of course but with high assassin investment you can get a death attack that will paralyze fairly often. Myself I would still focus almost entirely on melee and take a single throwing or missile weapon feat to make my own ammo so I'd have that as an option but not my main "thing".

Knife thrower from darkness? Interesting. Not quite what I had in mind, but could work, and I see the point about hidden danger bonus vs speciality weapons.

The amusing thing that I just noticed i that wiki on rogue page says that "Rogue speciality weapons" receive bonus only for finesse weapons, while I'm 100% sure it also worked with shortbows.

[Curve]

I would look at Assassin as a dip on a crossbow build. 3 levels if you don't care about the guild, 5 levels if you do.

Builds I find interesting and think I could really clean up with,
-21Ranger/6Fighter/3Assassin (21/4/5 if you want to use the guild.)
-23Ranger/4BG/3Assassin (21/4/5 if you want to use the guild.)
-17BG/10Fighter/3Assassin (17/8/5 If you want to use the guild.) Summons and arrows.

Solo'ing would be hard, sure. But, if you have a pal to guard you it will be cake. Hell, with the way writs work now you could level just fine by just being careful what writs you take. I would take any of these builds into PvP without any worries. I don't really know what some of the above posters are talking about.

I could come up with some more if you are interested and I'm happy to help you build them through PMs. People get all weird on the forums and I generally don't want their input on builds. So uh- yeah, shoot me a PM and I'll happily help you build what you want.

[Void]

I would look at Assassin as a dip on a crossbow build. 3 levels if you don't care about the guild, 5 levels if you do.

Builds I find interesting and think I could really clean up with,
-21Ranger/6Fighter/3Assassin (21/4/5 if you want to use the guild.)
-23Ranger/4BG/3Assassin (21/4/5 if you want to use the guild.)
-17BG/10Fighter/3Assassin (17/8/5 If you want to use the guild.) Summons and arrows.

Solo'ing would be hard, sure. But, if you have a pal to guard you it will be cake. Hell, with the way writs work now you could level just fine by just being careful what writs you take. I would take any of these builds into PvP without any worries. I don't really know what some of the above posters are talking about.

I could come up with some more if you are interested and I'm happy to help you build them through PMs. People get all weird on the forums and I generally don't want their input on builds. So uh- yeah, shoot me a PM and I'll happily help you build what you want.

Thanks for the offer.

The combo with blackguard is something I did not consider and it could fit.

However I was looking for non-archer assassin, as I've played plenty of rangers, archers included. And it would be more intersting to me to try a "deep assassin" with high level investment.

[Eyeliner]

Deep assassin dual wielder who also picks up a sling or darts can definitely work... Like 8 fighter/3 rogue/19 assassin if you want rogue synergy or 8 swash/6 fighter/16 assassin for more damage. Neither is a top tier build but I think assassins are meant to be a little underpowered, considering.

[Void]

Deep assassin dual wielder who also picks up a sling or darts can definitely work... Like 8 fighter/3 rogue/19 assassin if you want rogue synergy or 8 swash/6 fighter/16 assassin for more damage. Neither is a top tier build but I think assassins are meant to be a little underpowered, considering.

So, basically, using fighter levels to get more feats to have both dual wield and archery?

[Eyeliner]

I myself would put all the feats in melee plus take a single focus in missile or throwing weapon to make my own ammo to spam. Melee would be for pvp and tough fights so put all your feats into that... Missiles would be for fun in pve, you'll have enough AB and damage that you don't need to fully invest there.

I basically played something along these lines and spamming missiles from darkness clouds works well in PVE (as long as the enemy is vulnerable to sneak/death attacks) especially when you lay some traps about too... but you want maximum attacks and -assassinate damage when it counts.

Standard disclaimer, this is just what I would do, it's recommended as best possible build advice.

[Void]

Standard disclaimer, this is just what I would do, it's recommended as best possible build advice.

I believe there was darkness nerf which also affected true flames which used similar tactic (spam spells from darkness). So, depending on how long ago you played assassin, things might've changed (as in some critters will be randomly able to see through darkness). The nerf was some time ago, however, possibly a year or two.

Either way.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

It is a pity that I can't make a long range crossbow sniper, but now at least I see a plausible direction. I'll see if it is possible to shoehorn enough feats to make a hybrid character with rog/ftr/assassin.

[Eyeliner]

It was after the nerf. In a group of enemies you'll have a couple see through but most still won't. Still works well enough, it's just not a complete slaughter like darkness allowed before. When your death attack DC is in the 30s the paralysis will help a lot too (and that does work at range, though not long range).

I'm not really trying to sell you on it though... It's just an option.

[Hazard]

Does shortbow get rogue bonuses at all?

[msterswrdsmn]

My old assassin was a ranger/rogue/assassin, with most of his levels in assassin levels.

It was easy-ish to use in PVP, with darkness, traps, and a focusing in slings/throwing weapons. The basic premesis of the build in PVE was find a good position, drop darkness, and spam ranged attacks from the darkness cloud. Poison, paralysis, and just general AI screwy-ness helped at times as well.

This didn't always work, as undead are 100% unaffected by darkness, and other enemies will randomly ignore it. Some enemies will randomly ignore stealth too (something like a 20% chance), so things like animal empathy and traps were necessary when soloing to distract enemies. Worked fairly well regardless though. Especially once I got blinding speed and could kite things with impuny.

I can't imagine this would work well in pvp though.

[Void]

Does shortbow get rogue bonuses at all?

It does (or rather, it did, on my rogue), although wiki page implies that it shouldn't. As it is not technically a "finesse" weapon but a dexterity weapon instead. I'm talking about SPecialty Weapon bonus that grants +1 at combined rogue levels 19 and +2 at combined level 24.

I'd recommend to test this on pgcc first if you're planning to go for it.

[Hazard]

Does shortbow get rogue bonuses at all?

It does (or rather, it did, on my rogue), although wiki page implies that it shouldn't. As it is not technically a "finesse" weapon but a dexterity weapon instead. I'm talking about SPecialty Weapon bonus that grants +1 at combined rogue levels 19 and +2 at combined level 24.

I'd recommend to test this on pgcc first if you're planning to go for it.

Okay, thanks!

[Waldo52]

I know I'm not the OP but I've got a question: if ranged assassins are so bad, are ranged rogues just as crappy? I was planning on playing a rogue 25 archer ranger 5 with a buddy soon.

You'll also want a bow and not a crossbow, because rapid shot does not work on crossbows, and rapid shot means two high ab attacks instead of one, which almost doubles your damage on sneak attacks. It is a ranged version of dual-wield, pretty much. Two attacks instead of one, at -2 ab.

Isn't there the ashwood repeater crossbow that gives you another attack if you have rapid shot?

[Void]

I know I'm not the OP but I've got a question: if ranged assassins are so bad, are ranged rogues just as crappy? I was planning on playing a rogue 25 archer ranger 5 with a buddy soon.

You'll also want a bow and not a crossbow, because rapid shot does not work on crossbows, and rapid shot means two high ab attacks instead of one, which almost doubles your damage on sneak attacks. It is a ranged version of dual-wield, pretty much. Two attacks instead of one, at -2 ab.

Isn't there the ashwood repeater crossbow that gives you another attack if you have rapid shot?

There is, but it is the only one, and it has level requirement. Now compare this to ability to rapid fire ANY bow starting with level 1.
Because it is a craftable, you also won't be able to enchant it much.

[Eyeliner]

Rogue is probably better with a sling anyway so they can carry a shield, it's worth losing a little damage for +4 AC. Unless the bow really fits your concept. But they can all work if you find one particularly appealing. I happen to love throwing weapons but they are not optimal (and are kind of clunky to maintain)