Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

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MageTankTech
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Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:21 am

Cl/Mk/ED with levels of 21/4/5. I'm looking to make a healer/tank with decent versatility. Stat focuses will be Dex/Con/Wis/int with int having 18 for skill variety.

I'm not concerned about damage output as that isn't a priority. I would like to get the skills I need without going to 18 on Int but I am not familiar enough with the skill mechanics and variety of equipment available to feel confident enough to try short changing myself on skillpoints. That said, I have done some research on the matter so I am not entirely ignorant. For instance I only need concentration up to 23 because I intend to use defensive casting and since it doesn't require a hard use of skill points like tumble does for bonus AC I can just take 10-15 based on gear and stats.

I plan to grab epic transmutation but no other epic spell focuses. I will take Planar Turning for the Epic spell feat.
Right now I'm debating between Greater Spell focus Evocation to help the DCs of my main offensive options and Improved Expertise in order to double down on the defense and ensure High AB isn't a problem. I'm already kind of settled on my other feat choices.

I am looking for advice regarding this build in case there are details I haven't considered. Feel free to offer counter options or build suggestions as well as give ideas for what feats I should take or what might be a good distribution of skillpoints.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by Sincra » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:17 pm

Just a few things to note with your level and stat spread:
Your Caster level leaves you open to dispels.

You will get 4+Int on all those classes so it will sit you at 8 skills with 18 int (4 hard modifier).

Casting exits expertise.

I may be wrong but I don't believe you can be in expertise and combat casting simultaneously.

You can however mix defensive stance with expertise, from personal experience.

Your ab is going to be pretty low, 40's outside divine power I'd estimate, not really a big issue given your reqs but is something to consider.

Make sure to take 4 EKD pre-epic for 16 bab if you intend to melee, this is especially true if you aren't using a monk apr weapon.

As a healer you are however much more free to do as you please on any of the above, except dispels.
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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MRFTW » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:29 pm

I think skimping on concentration on a build that can be very easily dispelled is asking for trouble, personally. I would try to make one or the other better in some way.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:09 pm

Sincra wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:17 pm
Just a few things to note with your level and stat spread:
Your Caster level leaves you open to dispels.

You will get 4+Int on all those classes so it will sit you at 8 skills with 18 int (4 hard modifier).

Casting exits expertise.

I may be wrong but I don't believe you can be in expertise and combat casting simultaneously.

You can however mix defensive stance with expertise, from personal experience.

Your ab is going to be pretty low, 40's outside divine power I'd estimate, not really a big issue given your reqs but is something to consider.

Make sure to take 4 EKD pre-epic for 16 bab if you intend to melee, this is especially true if you aren't using a monk apr weapon.

As a healer you are however much more free to do as you please on any of the above, except dispels.
I am aware of the dispel concerns. If an enemy prioritizes dispels on me I will adjust my strategy.

I am aware casting exits expertise. However, if I go with expertise over Greater spell focus evocation it is unlikely that I will be casting while under fire as the DCs will be kind of low to justify the risk. My main concern at that point would be archers.

Also it is defensive casting not combat casting although the point that it doesn't work with expertise holds true.

To clarify, I wish to have options. As opposed to having a single strategy for the build which is employed in every fight. Sometimes it will be expertise and defensive stance when I intend for my character to be in the middle of a brawl with the intention of holding the line. Sometimes it will be defensive casting with my character running around providing support.

Around the 40s in AB is correct. And yes I don't mind it being low.

Sorry, I am not a build vet, could you clarify what 4 EKD means?

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:14 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:29 pm
I think skimping on concentration on a build that can be very easily dispelled is asking for trouble, personally. I would try to make one or the other better in some way.
As I understand it, defensive casting does away with concentration concerns as long as I meet the minimum for the spell level in question.

From what I saw on the PGCC a level 9 spell required a concentration check of 24 to succeed which means that if my concentration is at 22 I would auto it as long as I don't roll a 1.

The trade off is that Defensive casting can cause a spell to fail even if I am not under fire.

If I am not understanding this correctly then please feel free to correct me on it.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by Sincra » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:42 pm

Sounds like you had this pretty thought out which is always good, always wise to be aware of the weaknesses.

EKD is ED, Earth Kin Defender/Earthkin Defender. A personal habit!
Also my bad on the combat casting stance, made an assumption.
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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:10 pm

Sincra wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:42 pm
Sounds like you had this pretty thought out which is always good, always wise to be aware of the weaknesses.

EKD is ED, Earth Kin Defender/Earthkin Defender. A personal habit!
Also my bad on the combat casting stance, made an assumption.
No need to apologize, it's not like I gave all of the details of the build when asking for general advice.

Also, do you have any recommendations for Cleric Domains? I'm kind leaning on War/Healing at the moment.
War for the Aura of vitality so that I can hit the soft cap for Str/Dex/Con/Wis and more flexible divine power options.
Healing for more flexible spell slot usage in general.
With lower levels and lower durations I want to be sure I don't run out of slots on any specific circle so that I can grab all of the mandatory buffs while still being able to cast healing and offensive spells as needed.
At the moment I only plan to grab Extend Spell from the metamagic feats.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by fading » Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:55 pm

MageTankTech wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:10 pm
Sincra wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:42 pm
Sounds like you had this pretty thought out which is always good, always wise to be aware of the weaknesses.

EKD is ED, Earth Kin Defender/Earthkin Defender. A personal habit!
Also my bad on the combat casting stance, made an assumption.
No need to apologize, it's not like I gave all of the details of the build when asking for general advice.

Also, do you have any recommendations for Cleric Domains? I'm kind leaning on War/Healing at the moment.
War for the Aura of vitality so that I can hit the soft cap for Str/Dex/Con/Wis and more flexible divine power options.
Healing for more flexible spell slot usage in general.
With lower levels and lower durations I want to be sure I don't run out of slots on any specific circle so that I can grab all of the mandatory buffs while still being able to cast healing and offensive spells as needed.
At the moment I only plan to grab Extend Spell from the metamagic feats.
I would suggest Knowledge/Moon for premonition if you're aiming to make a tank.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by dallion43 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:42 am

21 lvls of CL means you probably don't want to count on GSF:Tran+aura+zoo for stats.
Gearing 3 stats will limit your SPs on gear, probably, to only having +2 disc on most gear.

Maxed concentration protects you from spell failure on taking direct(not AOO) hits(damage) to some extent.
Since you mentioned being a tank(getting hit often when needed), I believe this is relevant.

Check your final SPs count on lvl 30 and see if that covers the skills you need/want.(disc, conc, heal?+, tumble, SC, spot?-, lore?-, etc)
Usually leveling the build on PGCC to 30 couple of times ensures that your calculations are correct. For the 14/16/18 Int choice.

With AC being your primary tanking option, on a PC that plans to tank sometimes, skipping imp.exp can be detrimental. Imho.

4 ED pre 20 will help with ab/apr/ubab/saves. No reason not to take this route.

I assume your AC partially comes from monk wisdom(with relevant gear restrictions). Maybe consider the healer path(cleric class).
Maybe consider looking into summons buffing.

P.C
Also, this is an imho of course, like the rest above, but such a build probably means you play close to peak times and can find party
easily, otherwise it might be slightly difficult at times due to low CL and somewhat limited offensive capabilities.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 pm

dallion43 wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:42 am
21 lvls of CL means you probably don't want to count on GSF:Tran+aura+zoo for stats.
Gearing 3 stats will limit your SPs on gear, probably, to only having +2 disc on most gear.

Maxed concentration protects you from spell failure on taking direct(not AOO) hits(damage) to some extent.
Since you mentioned being a tank(getting hit often when needed), I believe this is relevant.

Check your final SPs count on lvl 30 and see if that covers the skills you need/want.(disc, conc, heal?+, tumble, SC, spot?-, lore?-, etc)
Usually leveling the build on PGCC to 30 couple of times ensures that your calculations are correct. For the 14/16/18 Int choice.

With AC being your primary tanking option, on a PC that plans to tank sometimes, skipping imp.exp can be detrimental. Imho.

4 ED pre 20 will help with ab/apr/ubab/saves. No reason not to take this route.

I assume your AC partially comes from monk wisdom(with relevant gear restrictions). Maybe consider the healer path(cleric class).
Maybe consider looking into summons buffing.

P.C
Also, this is an imho of course, like the rest above, but such a build probably means you play close to peak times and can find party
easily, otherwise it might be slightly difficult at times due to low CL and somewhat limited offensive capabilities.
Why would I not want to count on those buff spells for stats? Aura is the only one listed which isn't hours per level. Also I am aiming for ESF not GSF as the intent is to get my stats up to 11 with those buffs and just grab some gear to cover the missing 1 point.

I had no intention of casting while tanking. If I needed to cast or heal I would fall back behind my summons/allies. Defensive casting and concentration were mostly on my mind for dealing with archers. Also what is AOO?

I have remade this build several times on the PGCC. At 16 Int I don't quite meet the hard skillpoints I want for Concentration and Discipline. Specifically, I fall about 30 points short which is why I am looking at 18 Int. I was mainly curious whether or not there were a few good gear sets out there with high skill point boosts. I've seen a few pieces with +5 increases to multiple skills before.

I don't want to skip Imp.Exp but I also feel like leaving my offensive spell DCs too low will make them kind of useless in the late game. I'm a bit torn honestly. Also I double checked the build and realized I have one free feat floating around. I was debating putting it into Mobility in case I absolutely had to use a Potion or cast a spell during combat. Since I will have Lvl 5 ED I won't have to worry about losing my AC from Flanking or being flat footed at least. If you have any better suggestions for where that free feat should go I would be grateful for alternative ideas.

Out of curiosity why does taking 4ED pre level 20 help with saves? I'm guessing Number of attacks is based on having a certain amount of BAB by the time you reach certain levels but I'm not sure about the rest.

Yes to Monk AC with the plan to grab full wis gear for max spell slots as well, yes to Healer path and yes to summons via the Planar Turning epic feat and the intention to use Golems.

You keep emphasizing low CL but outside of the obvious lower durations/DCs/spellslots is it really that detrimental? Honestly the weakness to dispels is my biggest concern and from my experience npcs using dispel is not a hugely common thing. Note, I am not arguing the point I am simply asking for clarification as if it starts feeling like too much of a weakness I may reconsider the build.

Thank you for the advice so far. If you have any other suggestions/tidbits please feel free to share as they are both welcome and appreciated.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:43 pm

For reference on general defenses for the build it had:

686 HP from Overheal.
72 AC from buffs, Defensive Stance and Imp.Exp.
40 Fortitude
32 Reflex
44 Will

Evasion to allow for no damage if the reflex save is passed.
Defensive Awareness 2 to prevent loss of AC from Flanking or being caught flatfooted.

Main issue I am seeing right now is the duration of the short term buffs is a bit rough.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by Sincra » Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:02 am

Aura of Vitality: Duration increased to 3 rounds/level with Greater Transmutation Focus. With Epic Transmutation, duration increases to turns/level.
(Wiki: Spell changes)

So duration isn't a huge issue, as stated the CL is your only concern, and yes while rare, dispels become more common on higher level content, rarity will never make up for that one time it hits and strips a team mates wards, effectively consigning them to death in an epic dungeon.

AoO is attack of opportunity.

The skills you want to max:
Discipline (33)
Tumble (30, 6 AC)
Sensory (Spot/Listen 33)

Skills you can skip on or be lower:
Spellcraft (31 + 4 int mod = 35, always aim for a multiple of 5)
Lore (11 + 4 int mod for identifying, You're already a caster and potions exist for most things you can't do, see shadow conj mage armour)
Heal (30 - wis mod - 3 for kits, you can hit take 20 and heal 50 per purchased +3 kit kit, alternatively, and I do not endorse doing this but others do, use crafted bandage rolls)
Concentration (27 - Con mod, I personally never go above 27 concentration (skill + con mod) as you can enter defensive casting stance and succeed without fail. This obviously leaves slight room for damage concentration fails but that's an all or nothing solution. You're probably not going to stop a 100+ crit stopping you casting and you will be likely to have some gear with concentration by virtue of being a caster to stop non-crits easily enough.)

Any mention of the mod above is for where you're likely to have it sit when buffed.
Int is an exception I specifically stated 4 as you probably? Won't buff it, if you do, adjust accordingly to reach a multiple of 5 on base + gearing for spellcraft.

Any other skills are up to you.

As for the free feat, if you are getting tumble you should instead consider a craft feat or something more utility.
As stupid a question as it is, did you already take blindfight?

And on saves, taking EKD is the same two primary stats as cleric but you get 2/0/2 on the first level and 4/1/4 by level 4. Add that to 16 from Cleric 10/5/10 and you are 2 up on fort and will.

Your APR is tied to 6/11/16 BaB, Cleric is 3/4th progression and so 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 do not give BaB.
Basically treat it as 0.75 base attack bonus per level and snip any decimal.
As a result you end up on 15 BaB which is 1 below 4 attacks.
4 EKD is 4 BaB as it is a 1:1 class, so taking 16 cleric and 4 EKD gives 2 fort, 2 will saves and 1 BaB.
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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Mon Nov 29, 2021 5:57 pm

Sincra wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:02 am
Aura of Vitality: Duration increased to 3 rounds/level with Greater Transmutation Focus. With Epic Transmutation, duration increases to turns/level.
(Wiki: Spell changes)

So duration isn't a huge issue, as stated the CL is your only concern, and yes while rare, dispels become more common on higher level content, rarity will never make up for that one time it hits and strips a team mates wards, effectively consigning them to death in an epic dungeon.

AoO is attack of opportunity.

The skills you want to max:
Discipline (33)
Tumble (30, 6 AC)
Sensory (Spot/Listen 33)

Skills you can skip on or be lower:
Spellcraft (31 + 4 int mod = 35, always aim for a multiple of 5)
Lore (11 + 4 int mod for identifying, You're already a caster and potions exist for most things you can't do, see shadow conj mage armour)
Heal (30 - wis mod - 3 for kits, you can hit take 20 and heal 50 per purchased +3 kit kit, alternatively, and I do not endorse doing this but others do, use crafted bandage rolls)
Concentration (27 - Con mod, I personally never go above 27 concentration (skill + con mod) as you can enter defensive casting stance and succeed without fail. This obviously leaves slight room for damage concentration fails but that's an all or nothing solution. You're probably not going to stop a 100+ crit stopping you casting and you will be likely to have some gear with concentration by virtue of being a caster to stop non-crits easily enough.)

Any mention of the mod above is for where you're likely to have it sit when buffed.
Int is an exception I specifically stated 4 as you probably? Won't buff it, if you do, adjust accordingly to reach a multiple of 5 on base + gearing for spellcraft.

Any other skills are up to you.

As for the free feat, if you are getting tumble you should instead consider a craft feat or something more utility.
As stupid a question as it is, did you already take blindfight?

And on saves, taking EKD is the same two primary stats as cleric but you get 2/0/2 on the first level and 4/1/4 by level 4. Add that to 16 from Cleric 10/5/10 and you are 2 up on fort and will.

Your APR is tied to 6/11/16 BaB, Cleric is 3/4th progression and so 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 do not give BaB.
Basically treat it as 0.75 base attack bonus per level and snip any decimal.
As a result you end up on 15 BaB which is 1 below 4 attacks.
4 EKD is 4 BaB as it is a 1:1 class, so taking 16 cleric and 4 EKD gives 2 fort, 2 will saves and 1 BaB.
I wasn't really planning around the idea of buffing other players although it is a possibility and is certainly a concern.

With regards to the skills I was planning around having a high lore and wasn't sure how many of them would be punished for not having hard skill points put in them like Tumble with AC. If I go with what you suggested though I could just grab an Int buff spell and stick with 16 Int instead. Having said that I wasn't planning to take Heal since I was considering using a Healer Path Cleric with Healing Domain. The regenerate/Overheal alone would cover alot of casual damage and if worse came to worse I could stock a few heal potions if I ran out of spell slots for things like Heal/Mass heal.

When I tested Defensive Casting on the PGCC the highest DC I saw was 24 for a 9th circle spell. Why do you suggest 27 out of curiosity?

I was thinking about Scribe Scroll so that I don't have to search near and far for specific spell scrolls. Like if I wanted to stockpile 20 Word of faiths.

Given that my AB with a Cleric staff when fully buffed and using Improved expertise was somewhere in the 20s I didn't really take Blindfight into consideration. After all who cares if I can't hit invisibility when I won't hit without a 20 roll anyway? Seeing as you called it a "stupid question" though I'm guessing there is something innately useful about it that anyone and everyone should consider. Personally I was just planning on carrying a Faery Fire scroll if something proved too difficult to kill since I would be relying on summons and allies alot for damage anyways.

I still don't understand why the 4Ekd levels have to be taken "before" level 20 as opposed to after to get the bonuses but alright.

Thank you for the information given so far. It is giving me a number of things to consider. If you are still willing to help then feel free to keep it coming.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by Sincra » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:09 pm

So I'll start from the bottom and work back up here,
You can only get BaB and non-epic saves pre-21. (epic saves are based on character level and not class, they total 5)

Blindfight actually is twofold in that it is offensive but also defensive.

"Specifics: This feat grants the character the ability to fight well, even if blinded or against invisible creatures. The character gets to re-roll its miss chance percentile one time to see if it actually hits. Furthermore, invisible creatures get no bonus to hit the character in melee."
(From NWN wiki)

Defensive casting is 15+spell level+4 if in combat for the DC and does not have combat casting feat, since it cannot fail on a 1, 27 is the minimum (15+9+4 = 28).

"Defensive casting mode allows casting without triggering an attack of opportunity. However a concentration skill check (DC 15 + spell level) must be made or else the spell is lost. There is a -4 penalty (increasing the DC) if there is an enemy within 4 meters and the caster does not have the combat casting feat."
(From NWN wiki)


As a cleric you have to luxury of spontaneous conversion for healing spells iirc, so forgoing heal as a skill is also fine but just make sure that's what you want!
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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:27 pm

I believe I know how I want to handle this build now.

I would like to take a moment to thank everyone who helped me in figuring this out and for taking the time to explain alot of topics I did not fully grasp. I can go at this with alot more confidence in my decisions now so again, thank you.

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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by Mattamue » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:51 pm

MageTankTech wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Why would I not want to count on those buff spells for stats? Aura is the only one listed which isn't hours per level. Also I am aiming for ESF not GSF as the intent is to get my stats up to 11 with those buffs and just grab some gear to cover the missing 1 point.

I had no intention of casting while tanking. If I needed to cast or heal I would fall back behind my summons/allies. Defensive casting and concentration were mostly on my mind for dealing with archers. Also what is AOO?
Before you call this good and create the character, I am chiming in to double and triple-warn you about buffs.

With just 21 caster levels, you are very susceptible to dispels. If a Greater Dispel or Mordenkainen's Disjunction is cast on you, that is up to a 70% chance for each of your buffs to be dispelled. These dispel spells will be cast by opponents in PVP, and by NPCs. This isn't just a PVP consideration.

To clarify, being dispelled doesn't mean you'll lose 70% of your buffs or not. Being dispelled means that each buff gets a separate 70% chance to be dispelled. That is a very very high chance to lose everything and you will almost always lose a significant portion of your buffs when dispelled. It is also a very high chance to lose very important non-breach-able buffs that you do not want to lose, like death ward.

So what that means is that, if you are dispelled, it doesn't just mean that you'll have to move back behind allies and summons. It means your summons will be dispelled. It means you will lose the "zoo" spells and other buffs that make you an effective tank, while you are in combat. It means that you may need to rest again -- mid dungeon -- to replenish your spell slots so that you can re-buff. That might not seem like an annoyance to do one time, but there are dungeons where NPCs will be casting dispels every other encounter.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by dallion43 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:08 am

MageTankTech wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 pm

Why would I not want to count on those buff spells for stats? Aura is the only one listed which isn't hours per level. Also I am aiming for ESF not GSF as the intent is to get my stats up to 11 with those buffs and just grab some gear to cover the missing 1 point.

I had no intention of casting while tanking. If I needed to cast or heal I would fall back behind my summons/allies. Defensive casting and concentration were mostly on my mind for dealing with archers. Also what is AOO?

I have remade this build several times on the PGCC. At 16 Int I don't quite meet the hard skillpoints I want for Concentration and Discipline. Specifically, I fall about 30 points short which is why I am looking at 18 Int. I was mainly curious whether or not there were a few good gear sets out there with high skill point boosts. I've seen a few pieces with +5 increases to multiple skills before.

I don't want to skip Imp.Exp but I also feel like leaving my offensive spell DCs too low will make them kind of useless in the late game. I'm a bit torn honestly. Also I double checked the build and realized I have one free feat floating around. I was debating putting it into Mobility in case I absolutely had to use a Potion or cast a spell during combat. Since I will have Lvl 5 ED I won't have to worry about losing my AC from Flanking or being flat footed at least. If you have any better suggestions for where that free feat should go I would be grateful for alternative ideas.

Out of curiosity why does taking 4ED pre level 20 help with saves? I'm guessing Number of attacks is based on having a certain amount of BAB by the time you reach certain levels but I'm not sure about the rest.

Yes to Monk AC with the plan to grab full wis gear for max spell slots as well, yes to Healer path and yes to summons via the Planar Turning epic feat and the intention to use Golems.

You keep emphasizing low CL but outside of the obvious lower durations/DCs/spellslots is it really that detrimental? Honestly the weakness to dispels is my biggest concern and from my experience npcs using dispel is not a hugely common thing. Note, I am not arguing the point I am simply asking for clarification as if it starts feeling like too much of a weakness I may reconsider the build.

Thank you for the advice so far. If you have any other suggestions/tidbits please feel free to share as they are both welcome and appreciated.
I assume the main goal is PvE. even then, 21 CL means you will be dispelled relatively often in high lvl content. Due to mechanics and reasons explained above.
So if we have +11(effectively +12) soft stat bonus from spells, that equals high chance to lose +6 saves, 6*30hps, 6AC+6AC, ~~wiz bonus to spell slots on dispel.
If we have +7(preferably/optionally +8) soft stat bonus from gear and the rest comes from spells, we only lose +2save/60hp/4ac/~WbSS on dispel. (AB as well, gear bonus is non dispelable).
While it doesn't help with the rest of the spells(including summons, immunities, other bonuses to AC, saves, etc) being dispelled, it can be a difference between a bad and a terrible post-dispel situation.

Concentration success vs direct damage covers any direct damage to the PC during the cast from what I recall, and the formula is consistent with the wiki. On a unlucky roll the damage can be relatively low and still result in spell disruption.
https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Concentration
How relevant it is for what you described? Depends on your relationship with Murphy :p.

+2DC vs +5 non dispelable AC(situational), for a caster(dedicated DC/cast burst DPS, etc), the AC is less important. But for a low CL secondary tank/primary heal, I would go with imp.exp.

Mobility is replaced by 30 tumble. Heal is useful, especially on a wiz build, you can simply heal-kit the main tank the whole battle and stay very useful long after you emptied your spell book on a long run with no rest. He will buy and carry the kits and be happy you are there.
It is somewhat hard to recommend something(feat/skills) without seeing the lvl by lvl breakdown of the build.
Maybe zen archery and monk throwing weapons for the ab bonus and ubab gain, since if I get it right your primary stat is wiz and not dex. The damage will be very low, but existent behind a summon.

It is hard to say if low CL is too much of a weakness. It depends on a lot of factors. Generally if one fully understands the build weaknesses and are fine with them, knows how to counter them or simply wants to play it, then it is good enough.
I played for quite a while with someone with a loremaster build and since the person was charming (+the RP lvl was much higher than mine) the build itself had 0 difference to me/that person, it could have been level 1 commoner or whatever else, mechanically wise.
If I could pull off the same with that build? Definitely no.

Hopefully the above imho helped a bit.

MageTankTech
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:20 pm

Mattamue wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:51 pm
MageTankTech wrote:
Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Why would I not want to count on those buff spells for stats? Aura is the only one listed which isn't hours per level. Also I am aiming for ESF not GSF as the intent is to get my stats up to 11 with those buffs and just grab some gear to cover the missing 1 point.

I had no intention of casting while tanking. If I needed to cast or heal I would fall back behind my summons/allies. Defensive casting and concentration were mostly on my mind for dealing with archers. Also what is AOO?
Before you call this good and create the character, I am chiming in to double and triple-warn you about buffs.

With just 21 caster levels, you are very susceptible to dispels. If a Greater Dispel or Mordenkainen's Disjunction is cast on you, that is up to a 70% chance for each of your buffs to be dispelled. These dispel spells will be cast by opponents in PVP, and by NPCs. This isn't just a PVP consideration.

To clarify, being dispelled doesn't mean you'll lose 70% of your buffs or not. Being dispelled means that each buff gets a separate 70% chance to be dispelled. That is a very very high chance to lose everything and you will almost always lose a significant portion of your buffs when dispelled. It is also a very high chance to lose very important non-breach-able buffs that you do not want to lose, like death ward.

So what that means is that, if you are dispelled, it doesn't just mean that you'll have to move back behind allies and summons. It means your summons will be dispelled. It means you will lose the "zoo" spells and other buffs that make you an effective tank, while you are in combat. It means that you may need to rest again -- mid dungeon -- to replenish your spell slots so that you can re-buff. That might not seem like an annoyance to do one time, but there are dungeons where NPCs will be casting dispels every other encounter.
Sorry, I suppose I should have clarified what I planned to do so that you did not waste your time trying to warn me further.

I gave it some thought and realized, between the large number of buffs I needed in addition to the limited durations and as you have stated the risk of losing everything from one dispel that it simply wasn't too feasible to have such a low CL level. As such I decided to remove the ED levels and only include Monk. It is a bit less interesting this way but there really was too much risk from the dispels and tediousness from having to re-apply buffs so often.

I do appreciate you going out of your way to try and ensure I didn't make a decision I would regret though and sorry for not being more clear with my last message.

MageTankTech
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: Cleric/Monk/EarthkinDefender Build advice requested

Post by MageTankTech » Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:10 pm

For those curious the new build fully buffed though maybe not with the absolute best gear and with only Cleric buffs aside from Barkskin potion/ioun stone potion is:

Cleric/Mk 26/4

HP Overhealed: 666
AC/AB after Improved expertise: 70/38
Saves:
Fort:35
Reflex: 30
Will: 40

Skills:
Con: 28
Disc: 39
Hide: 40
Lore: 16
MS: 42
Sail: 45
Spellcraft: 36
Spot: 45
Tumble: 40

Feats:
Extend Spell
Greater Wisdom 3
Weapon Finess
Blind Fight
Armor Skin
ESF Transmutation
Planar Conduit
Improved Expertise

Feel free to critique it as you like.

Once again, I am grateful for all of the help offered thus far.

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