Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

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Void
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Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by Void » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:49 pm

ARelith wiki lists this build:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WbJ ... sp=sharing
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Character_Builds

The thing is, this build picks knockdown at levels 15 and 18, and lacks expertise/improved expertise.

Is there a good reason to do things this way?
Rogue 30

Human

STATS:

STR: 13
DEX: 17 (+2 Gift) (+7 Level)
CON: 14
INT: 14 (+2 Gift)
WIS: 8
CHA: 8

Skills:

Max 12.
Cross Class Discipline
Hide
Move Silent
Bluff
Spot
16 Use Magic Device
17 Set Trap
Tumble
Search
Heal
Lore
15 Open Lock
18 Disable Trap

+1 more skill at 33.

Skills are flexible. I've tried to select the more core "rogue experience" skills here to help out. Substitutions could be made, such as for Appraise, or to max out Set Trap.

Feats: [Bonus Feats are in Brackets]

1: Ambidexterity, [Two Weapon Fighting]
2: [Weapon Finesse]
3: Weapon Focus: One Hand Edge
4:
5:
6: Blindfight
7:
8:
9: Improved Critical: One Hand Edge
10: [Improved Evasion]
11:
12: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13: [Defensive Roll]
14:
15: Knockdown
16: [Slippery Mind]
17:
18: Improved Knockdown
19: [Crippling Strike]
20:
21: Epic Weapon Focus: One Hand Edge
22:
23:
24: Armor Skin, [Epic Skill Focus: Hide]
25:
26:
27: Epic Prowess
28: [Blinding Speed]
29:
30: Epic Dodge

NOTES: This build is designed around being the stereotypical two handed dual wielding rogue. Feats could be moved around if a more sword and shield style is desired, but without multiclassing, you will need to take Shield Proficiency as a feat. Being a pure 30 rogue, it has maximum power in all bombs, in traps, and an almost permanent uptime on Blinding Speed, as well as all the other rogue toys. It is not as good as the 24 rogue 6 fighter, but offers a very basic chassis for someone hoping to stay pure classed.
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ZombieDuck
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by ZombieDuck » Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:57 pm

It's probably there to make use of the Sneak attack, especially when combined with Stealth - KD - Hopefully enought dmg in a round to finish someone off.

Choosing Expertise/Imp. Exp over KD/IKD(Could also go KD + Expertise) is largely about what you specifically think you are going to need.
KD is good for the combo I mentioned because you get bonus AB exiting stealth + Flank(+2 AB), giving you chance to KD someone/something when they are flat-footed(their AC is at the lowest) and your dmg is at the highest.
Expertise is obviously good for survival, but this build doesn't even have a shield profiency, so its AC is a bit low and you'll be largely relying on E. Dodge + 50% conceal to survive.

What exactly are you looking from the build? Looking to do PvP or PvE?
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by Void » Sat Dec 11, 2021 9:49 pm

ZombieDuck wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:57 pm
What exactly are you looking from the build? Looking to do PvP or PvE?
I don't really PVP, which means PVE. I was looking for possible ideas for a new character. A pure rogue is one possibility.

The thing is from my experience of playing Pure Rogue ARCHER before, when you get swarmed, going into ICE is a way to survive (yes, the archer had ICE and could switch to a Rapier. No, it wasn't a good idea), even though with low AB it'll take forever to finish off the enemy. So I was wondering why did the author ignore ICE completely in the build. I'm aware that knockdown means sneak attacks.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by ZombieDuck » Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:48 am

24 Rog/6 Fighter(16/4 pre-epic) is pretty stable build for high rogue levels.

Misses out on extra skill points from 6 Rogue levels compared to Fighter, 1 epic Rogue bonus feat, Permanent Blinding Speed(The Fighter variant has Blinding Speed with 1 turn CD) and 3 extra DC on Grenades.

Fighter variant gains Shield Profiency, Martial weapon profiency, 4 Attacks Per Round, +1 AB/AC, tiny bit more HP, 4 feats from Fighter(Including Weapon Specialization and the Epic Variant).

Starting with 3 Rogue and then taking 4 Fighter and picking Ambidexterity, Two-weapon Fighting and Weapon Specialization results in fairly easy start for a dex build too.

Another benefit of having 4 APR with +2 from Dual-wielding and +1 from Haste(Blinding-speed, which can be activated without breaking stealth since it's a free action) means your first flurry from Stealth will have 3 attacks, giving more chances to hit that KD or just more dmg.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by Void » Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:10 am

ZombieDuck wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 1:48 am
24 Rog/6 Fighter(16/4 pre-epic) is pretty stable build for high rogue levels.

Misses out on extra skill points from 6 Rogue levels compared to Fighter, 1 epic Rogue bonus feat, Permanent Blinding Speed(The Fighter variant has Blinding Speed with 1 turn CD) and 3 extra DC on Grenades.

Fighter variant gains Shield Profiency, Martial weapon profiency, 4 Attacks Per Round, +1 AB/AC, tiny bit more HP, 4 feats from Fighter(Including Weapon Specialization and the Epic Variant).
Hmm. It is possible that I'll end up with that if I decide to play, although permanent blinding speed and high grenade dc was really nice when I had it.

Thanks for the info.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by Skibbles » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:08 pm

I think I'd also go knockdown for a pve pure rogue, buddy up with a tank (or feylock) as the Gods intended, and plow through enemies. Very killy I bet.

Though I'd really swing for the mentioned 24/6 and get both, as well as that extra attack too which probably more than equalizes the few sneak die lost.

Either way sounds like a grand time.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:32 pm

Its a tough one actually.
This isnt pvp, and a smart pure rogue wont pvp much or at all. So lets talk about pve. Both these feats are very useful to a pure rogue. You have just about enough ab to KD mobs from stealth and sneak them to death, so KD improves solo clear speed. On the other hand you have expertise, which makes you a better tank and I like this option more for this reason. If you're soloing, you benefit from either KD or expertise about equally I think, but if you're in a party that lacks a frontline you can fill that niche with expertise and your epic dodge, and if the party already has a solid frontline, then that frontline can -guard the rogue and ensure the rogue lands their sneaks without having to KD. All and all, I think expertise is the better option here.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by xf1313 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:30 pm

I would say, go shadowdancer! 3 lvl at least, gives you consistent sneak attack, there’s no need for expertise at all.
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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by TurningLeaf » Tue Dec 21, 2021 4:44 pm

You could instead get janky expertise-adjacent functionality via skills, with Parry. You won't be tanking mob groups but it could help get the aggro off you if you're in a party.

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Re: Rogue 30: Knockdown vs Expertis

Post by Cabarcos » Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:38 am

I have a would-be 24 Rogue / 6 Ranger, level 29 at the moment at it's working pretty well.
With the ranger levels, you can level up Discipline and Animal Empathy.
If you get Parry you can get a +6 shield AC at level 29.
It provides some strengths and interesting RP options: 4 attacks, track, to use Poisons, to Dominate Animals, Animal Language...
It really depends on what you want to do with the character.

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