Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

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Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:10 am

EDIT UPDATE: Finished buid here.
--------------

Hi! I've never rolled a 'deep' paladin before, and the update seemed like the perfect opportunity to give one a try. Specifically, I wanted to see if an Oath of Vengeance paladin could be built into big smiting.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything important, or if there's anything I'm getting wrong. I'm not terribly interested in peak optimal (see: making a smiter paladin), but I'd appreciate being functional!
Human Oath of Vengeance Smiter (26 Paladin / 4 Divine Champion)
14 STR > 16 Gift
8 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
17 CHA > 19 Gift

Stat Upgrades: All CHA
Levels:
1-19: Paladin
20-23: Divine Champion
24-30: Paladin

1 Pal <Power Attack, Expertise>
3 Pal <Divine Shield>
6 Pal <Imp. Expertise>
9 Pal <Weapon Focus>
12 Pal <Improved Critical>
15 Pal <Exotic Weapon Proficiency>
18 Pal <Blind Fight>
21 DC <Epic Weapon Focus and Armor Skin (DC Bonus Feat)>
23 DC <Epic Prowess (DC Bonus Feat)>
24 Pal <SF: Abjuration>
27 Pal <GSF: Abjuration, Great Smite II (Paladin Bonus Feat)>
30 Pal <Great Smite III and Great Smite IV (Paladin Bonus Feat)>

Divine Might, Extra Smiting, and G-Smite I feats provided for by Oath of Vengeance
Improved Turning feat gained for free at Paladin 21.

AB: 47 Passive AB (25 BAB + 9 STR + 4 Feats + 3 Paladin Oath T3 + 5 Bless Weapon + 1 Bless)
Smites: +14 AB (hard), +60 potential damage modified by alignment
AC: 44 Long-Term AC, 58 Divine Shield AC, 62 AC Hasted/Divine Shield. Add Expertise as necessary. (10 + 12 Sanctified Plate + 7 Serpent Aegis Shield + 1 Dex + 1 Boots + 3 CC Tumble + 2 armor Skin + 1 Mage Armor + 4 Barkskin + 3 Helmet)
Base Saves: 44/32/30 with Stat Buffs + Good Hope
HP: 540 with max soft +12 CON.
Skills: Leadership, Discipline, Lore, Taunt, Cross-Classed Tumble, Spot (or Listen)
Gearing: STR/CON/CHA (eventually with Disc/Detect) to top off Aura of Glory. Remaining Slots will be STR/CON/Save to push REF/WIL to high 30s).

Wind-up: Haste-> Div Feats + Holy Sword. Start smiting.
Effortlessly gets +50 leadership, giving everyone else in the party +1 AB.
Lay on Hands Healing: 420 HP.
Full Potency Holy Sword Dispels.
Last edited by Nintendo Entertainment System on Wed Feb 02, 2022 4:20 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by ZombieDuck » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:32 am

You might want to take 20th level as DC to get few more saves(+1 Fort, +2 Reflex).
The build seems pretty solid, I like how with the Oath of Vengeance the windup can be shortened to just casting Holy Sword since it activates Divine Might/Shield.
What weapon were you thinking of using?
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:36 am

ZombieDuck wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:32 am
You might want to take 20th level as DC to get few more saves(+1 Fort, +2 Reflex).
The build seems pretty solid, I like how with the Oath of Vengeance the windup can be shortened to just casting Holy Sword since it activates Divine Might/Shield.
What weapon were you thinking of using?
That's a good point! More reflex saves would certainly be welcome.

The optimal weapon choice will likely be 1h Edge for the martial weapons with the biggest crit range. Going 2H edge is an option, especially if I replace Spell Focus with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, letting the paladin use a bastard sword / shield for tanking, or a big weapon (falchion?) for doing the biggest smite damage.

Could also go Exotic Weapon Proficiency with a 1H focus to use either the Orcslayer or the Bec de Corbin. I'm very undecided about weapon choice at this point.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Good Character » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:39 am

ZombieDuck wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:32 am
You might want to take 20th level as DC to get few more saves(+1 Fort, +2 Reflex).
The build seems pretty solid, I like how with the Oath of Vengeance the windup can be shortened to just casting Holy Sword since it activates Divine Might/Shield.
What weapon were you thinking of using?
Wind-up literally just got changed. lol

Requires using Holy Sword + one of the divine feats to activate everything you want.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:48 am

Good Character wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 12:39 am
Wind-up literally just got changed. lol

Requires using Holy Sword + one of the divine feats to activate everything you want.
It's true, though it's still a lot better than it used to be. I recall having to activate Shield and Might individually, then add Divine Favor and Holy Sword.

Now it's a one-turn wind-up with haste into both divine feats at once and holy sword, for serious encounters at least. For most common PvE encounters, a paladin will just need to hit one of the divine feats and then be good to go. The reduced buff-time is a big reason I'm more interested in playing one now.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Good Character » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:02 am

Oh yeah absolutely. I was personally thinking of a paladin/EKD myself.

As far as your build, I would dump Abjuration. Pick up Exotic. Use a Bec de Corbin for an extra +5 damage from Bless Weapon.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 3:24 am

Good Character wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:02 am
As far as your build, I would dump Abjuration. Pick up Exotic. Use a Bec de Corbin for an extra +5 damage from Bless Weapon.
Enhancement damage stacking like that does move it to the top of the list! My first impulse was to go with something with a wide crit range, given how much a crit would multiply the big smite damage. But occasionally getting a 400~ damage crit-smite off of a one-handed weapon feels like it would make for some memorable moments.

I edited the OP to shuffle Divine Champion levels up a bit and net extra saves as per ZombieDuck's suggestion.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:13 am

There's +4 ab in there from Oath of Vengeance but the bonuses from greater and epic oath dont stack, the +1 becomes +3. so your total passive ab there is 47, which is still surprisingly decent for a cha based build. Just a minor correction.

Over all this build seems good. More than just functional tbh. Although I havent tested this new smite mechanic yet, I lean to believe the idea behind the design of Oath of Vengeance is to go strength based and enjoy free G.smite 1 on your "standard" strength pally, with more passive ab (and about the same smite total smite ab since it's a shift from cha to str basically), and then it frees you epic feats to take even more str feats and/or gsf abjuration if you want to go Holy Sword dispel on hit build, and it would also help this build if it had arcane defense abjuration because 26 CL to me is a bit scary to walk around with in this server so I personally lean towards a strength build with abjuration feats or str feats instead of the g.smites. I think a more potent G.smite build would have 20 cot levels and no holy sword.
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Good Character » Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:54 am

Paladins should continue to get +3 dispel CL at level 21. He should be fine on that end.

@OP: You are missing epic feats. The feats from your general level progression which are: 21, 24, 27, 30. It appears you accounted for the level 21 feat with Epic Weapon Focus but none of the others.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:13 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:13 am
There's +4 ab in there from Oath of Vengeance but the bonuses from greater and epic oath dont stack, the +1 becomes +3. so your total passive ab there is 47, which is still surprisingly decent for a cha based build. Just a minor correction.
Didn't know this! I'll have to correct that. Technically, I could make it up by using the free Aid provided for in Sanctified Armor, but I don't want to count that as part of the build's AB. Anyone can drink an Aid potion.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:13 am
Over all this build seems good. More than just functional tbh. Although I havent tested this new smite mechanic yet, I lean to believe the idea behind the design of Oath of Vengeance is to go strength based and enjoy free G.smite 1 on your "standard" strength pally, with more passive ab (and about the same smite total smite ab since it's a shift from cha to str basically), and then it frees you epic feats to take even more str feats and/or gsf abjuration if you want to go Holy Sword dispel on hit build, and it would also help this build if it had arcane defense abjuration because 26 CL to me is a bit scary to walk around with in this server so I personally lean towards a strength build with abjuration feats or str feats instead of the g.smites. I think a more potent G.smite build would have 20 cot levels and no holy sword.
There's a few things here I disagree with. First, GSF abjuration has been removed from the paladin feat list as per the update post here:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25&start=775#p281534

The only path GSF Abjuration on a paladin now is specifically the Oath of Inquisition. That's the one I should be taking if I want a fully potent Holy Sword dispel effect. For this build, I'm going for smites!

Second, Paladins get +3 CL versus dispels. 29 CL versus dispels is pretty good in my book.

Third, the Oath of Vengeance Tier 3 perk specifically synergies with Great Smites. Holy Sword hits, according to the update notes, can refresh Great Smite uses, meaning I'll get more than 3 smites over the course of a fight. That's a pretty big deal for a smite-centric build. I don't think Oath of Vengeance is really 'meant' to be one thing or another, and building into a CHA-based smitadin with it seems as valid as the STR route. A STR route paladin with a dispel-focused Holy Sword seems better served by Inquisition and GSF Abjuration.

Good Character wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 9:54 am
@OP: You are missing epic feats. The feats from your general level progression which are: 21, 24, 27, 30. It appears you accounted for the level 21 feat with Epic Weapon Focus but none of the others.
Ah! Thanks for posting out that I'm missing feats. As it turned out, I did use the general feats but I totally forgot about adding Paladin Bonus Feats for 23 and 26.

Now the character can fit in G. Strength I and II, for additional AB and damage. Alternatively, a couple of Epic Skill Foci. I'll update accordingly.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 10:18 am

Well, with the corrected T3 bonus at +3, and the STR bonus now at 10, it still ends up at 48 AB. Funny how that works out.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Good Character » Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm

For GSF: Abjuration you can definitely still take it for a General Feat, as it's just been disabled for paladin bonus feats.

I say it's not absolutely important for what you're accomplishing, though, as 1. You have a ridiculously high AB with smite, and 2. It's divine damage so it can't be ignored. Unless Divine Smite procs your Holy Sword dispel, I would give the GSF: Abjuration a pass for this build.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Dec 21, 2021 7:40 pm

Good Character wrote:
Tue Dec 21, 2021 1:18 pm
For GSF: Abjuration you can definitely still take it for a General Feat, as it's just been disabled for paladin bonus feats.

I say it's not absolutely important for what you're accomplishing, though, as 1. You have a ridiculously high AB with smite, and 2. It's divine damage so it can't be ignored. Unless Divine Smite procs your Holy Sword dispel, I would give the GSF: Abjuration a pass for this build.
Thanks for the correction! That certainly changes things, if GSF is still available to all paladins as general feats but not bonus feats.

So from my limited experimentation with Smite, it seems to proc an entire new attack in addition to your standard attack array. But I'll have to play with it further. I suppose the easiest way to test would be to go on the PGCC, make a spellsword with divine champion levels, and see if a smite procs a saving throw for an on-hit effect.

If smites do proc Holy Sword, I'd consider dropping improved expertise for GSF. Or just sticking with one SF and not going exotic prof.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:11 pm

21 ewf, armor skin (bonus cot)
23 bonus cot epic prowess
24 sf abjuration
27 gsf abjuration, g.smite (bonus paladin)
30 g.smite x2 (bonus paladin)
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:01 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:11 pm
21 ewf, armor skin (bonus cot)
23 bonus cot epic prowess
24 sf abjuration
27 gsf abjuration, g.smite (bonus paladin)
30 g.smite x2 (bonus paladin)
Imp. Expertise and Exotic Weapon Prof is worth the 1 AB/damage, I think. Good suggestion!

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:15 pm

Since the effect of smite is now capped at 20 CL and your build no longer has 30 CL smite I feel obligated to suggest an alternative to the admittedly very interesting idea you brought up with the 4 cot dip. Go 27/3 Bard or Rogue. You will be giving up 2 unisave and 2 feats which will be gsf abjuration, but you will get UMD and +3 ac from tumble. Everything to do with your smite and the rest of the build will remain the same.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:21 am

It's true, the original reason I went with the DC dip - a full 30 character levels contributing to smite calculations - is now moot. A more traditional dip likely serves this build better.

I haven't gone and built this character yet, which might be a good thing as I'm honestly not sure whether going Great Smite is worth it as it stands. Multiple epic feats and 25 CHA is a steep investment for what amounts to 10 circumstantial damage per feat every other round against a specific alignment.

Even if one sticks to the stat spread and goes high CHA, it seems almost better to use two of those epic feats for Great STR and +1 ab/dmg generally, and use the third to either squeeze in GSF Abjuration or grab GSF: Discipline. Especially given that smite would then only have a 7 second cooldown on a build that can refresh smite uses, which means higher DPS on anything that isn't CE. (And maybe even against CE! Haven't done the math.)

In short, I'm probably still going to do a deep paladin at some point. But I don't think Great Smite is worth it right now, so I'll likely do a different flavor of deep paladin.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:04 pm

GSF abjuration is better than 1 ab damage for you. ESF discipline is also much more important than 1 ab/damage. Priorities.

As for the question of whether or not to go for a Smiter at all or just go str based... both are good really. It's a question of play style and theme more than anything. mechanically I think maybe smiters have a bit of an edge over none smiters in pvp but then you're also relaying on your enemy being far from you alighment-wise, so there's plenty of pros and cons for both paths and that's great. I personally prefer deep pally as str based and 20 cot for smiter because I think that's the best mathematical use of these classes because of feat allocation and the passive ab that scales with cha, and divine wrath, etc. There's also the fact cot gets a ginormous influx of saves and can gear discipline on every single gear piece almost, so cot can drop ESF discipline, where paladin shouldnt. But the most important thing to say here is that both ESF discipline and GSF abjuration are more important than great str x2 here, on your current smiter build.
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:33 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 3:04 pm
GSF abjuration is better than 1 ab damage for you. ESF discipline is also much more important than 1 ab/damage. Priorities.

As for the question of whether or not to go for a Smiter at all or just go str based... both are good really. It's a question of play style and theme more than anything. mechanically I think maybe smiters have a bit of an edge over none smiters in pvp but then you're also relaying on your enemy being far from you alighment-wise, so there's plenty of pros and cons for both paths and that's great. I personally prefer deep pally as str based and 20 cot for smiter because I think that's the best mathematical use of these classes because of feat allocation and the passive ab that scales with cha, and divine wrath, etc. There's also the fact cot gets a ginormous influx of saves and can gear discipline on every single gear piece almost, so cot can drop ESF discipline, where paladin shouldnt. But the most important thing to say here is that both ESF discipline and GSF abjuration are more important than great str x2 here, on your current smiter build.
I've played heavy CoTs before, which is the biggest reason I wanted to try out a deep paladin and make smite work on it. Novel experiences and all that.

I do think the gearing is a wash (aside from the fact that CoT does get huge bonuses on saves both passively and through Divine Wrath). Aura of Glory plus the new paladin hat means you only need CHA on a couple pieces of gear, so you've got a lot more room for STR/CON/Unisave + Discipline/Other Skill gear. So I think you can still fit on plenty of discipline on a deep paladin's gear set.

The deep CoT version also gets the same number of epic feats and has to buy Great Smite I, so it ends up losing out on Epic Prowess most of the time. Factoring in Bless and Aid being lengthy buffs when cast from the Paladin Spellbook, the AB comes out roughly on par - even accounting for Divine Wrath. I feel like the deep paladin smiter has better longevity and stability for roughly the same performance, whereas the CoT smiter has to win with three smites. And the nature of holy sword means the paladin's position can get stronger as the fight goes on. I can be convinced otherwise though!

Still, I might give it a try regardless and see how a deep paladin smiter works with a traditional dip and the benefits of evasion / full tumble AC / UMD. I haven't made it yet since an existing character had a surprising extension of their story arc, but a deep paladin is definitely next on the list.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:54 pm

This is what it'll look like with a dip, probably. I just used specialist here as an example of something that gets big Discipline.
Human Oath of Vengeance Smiter (27 Paladin / 3 Specialist)
14 STR > 16 Gift
8 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
17 CHA > 19 Gift

Stat Upgrades: All CHA
Levels:
1-27: Paladin
28-30: Specialist

1 Pal <Power Attack, Expertise>
3 Pal <Divine Shield>
6 Pal <Imp. Expertise>
9 Pal <Weapon Focus>
12 Pal <Improved Critical>
15 Pal <SF: Discipline>
18 Pal <Blind Fight>
21 Pal <Epic Weapon Focus>
23 Pal <Armor Skin>
24 Pal <Epic Prowess>
26 Pal <Great Smite II>
27 Pal <Great Smite III>
30 Spec <Great Smite IV, ESF Discipline (Specialist Bonus Feat)>

Divine Might, Extra Smiting, and G-Smite I feats provided for by Oath of Vengeance
Improved Turning feat gained for free at Paladin 21.

AB: 48 AB (25 BAB + 9 STR + 4 Feats + 3 Paladin Oath T3 + 5 Bless Weapon + 2 Bless / Aid), 49 AB if using a 2H Weapon for Big Divine Might Damage
Smites: +14 AB (hard), +60 potential damage modified by alignment
AC: 46 Long-Term AC, 60 Divine Shield AC, 64 AC Hasted/Divine Shield. Add Expertise as necessary. (10 + 11 Adamantium + 7 Serpent Aegis Shield + 1 Dex + 1 Boots + 6 Tumble + 2 armor Skin + 1 Mage Armor + 4 Barkskin + 3 Helmet)
Base Saves: 41/28/28 with Stat Buffs + Good Hope
HP: 540 with max soft +12 CON.
Skills: Leadership, Discipline, Lore, Taunt, Tumble, Detect Skill or Spellcraft for Extra Saves, 25 UMD (accounting for CHA)
Gearing: STR/CON/CHA (eventually with Disc/Detect) to top off Aura of Glory. Remaining Slots will be STR/CON/Save to push REF/WIL to high 30s).

Wind-up: Haste-> Div Feats + Holy Sword. Start smiting.
Effortlessly gets +50 leadership, giving everyone else in the party +1 AB.
Lay on Hands Healing: 376 HP.
Last edited by Nintendo Entertainment System on Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:20 pm

Nintendo Entertainment System wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:33 pm
I do think the gearing is a wash (aside from the fact that CoT does get huge bonuses on saves both passively and through Divine Wrath). Aura of Glory plus the new paladin hat means you only need CHA on a couple pieces of gear, so you've got a lot more room for STR/CON/Unisave + Discipline/Other Skill gear. So I think you can still fit on plenty of discipline on a deep paladin's gear set.
That's fair.
Nintendo Entertainment System wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 6:33 pm
The deep CoT version also gets the same number of epic feats and has to buy Great Smite I, so it ends up losing out on Epic Prowess most of the time. Factoring in Bless and Aid being lengthy buffs when cast from the Paladin Spellbook, the AB comes out roughly on par - even accounting for Divine Wrath.
Iirc the difference in ab was minor, in favour of Cot, but the selling points are mostly the substantial DR boost and +10 damage from wrath and epic weapon spec where the pal's gets in turn get extra +2 damage to their div might. Also, Bless is back to being round/lvl now for everyone except Healer, as it had been for quite a while until a period of time it wasnt, and I'm not seeing any memo in the update thread about paladin getting special treatment like Healer so I wouldnt factor this into the ab calculation. Aid is fine but some would argue that the Aid(8) on the Cot armor means that the Cot can factor Aid all the same.
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by ZombieDuck » Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:31 pm

I would personally not recommend Great Smiting(Which in my opinion now has high requirement for the benefit) for the build anymore.
The high Cha requirement is a lot comparing to what Str gives, but it is a comparison between AB or AC/Saves with both granting dmg, divine dmg not being reduced dmg immunities/resistance but only on when you have divines on.
As far as using Smite just casually goes, I've noticed it's very nice way to just get another extra high AB/Dmg attack per round which is not a small thing considering the Holy Sword of the Vengeance oath can refresh Smite charges.

The mentioned 27/3 builds are very typical and comfy.
3 Rogue gets Evasion/Skillpoints/2d6 sneak/Uncanny Dodge(Save that 1 dex AC while flat-footed) and Thieves Cant.
3 Bard gives 1 AB/AC/Saves song and access to Mass haste/Day harps.
3 Specialist gives Epic Skill Focus but requires normal skill focus feat.
And all 3 give access to Tumble/UMD with Bard/Specialist giving access to Spellcraft aswell.

Then there's the option of 4 Fighter/Divine Champ/Cavalier for feats mainly(Even with Fighter you'd probably want to skip weapon specilization for other feats).
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Dec 25, 2021 9:14 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:20 pm
Iirc the difference in ab was minor, in favour of Cot, but the selling points are mostly the substantial DR boost and +10 damage from wrath and epic weapon spec where the pal's gets in turn get extra +2 damage to their div might. Also, Bless is back to being round/lvl now for everyone except Healer, as it had been for quite a while until a period of time it wasnt, and I'm not seeing any memo in the update thread about paladin getting special treatment like Healer so I wouldnt factor this into the ab calculation. Aid is fine but some would argue that the Aid(8) on the Cot armor means that the Cot can factor Aid all the same.
DR Boost is nice, it's true! But the damage difference isn't actually substantial, even accounting for EWS. T3 Paladin also gets +3 Divine Damage passively now, so it's +5 divine damage of T3 Vengeance versus the +4 of Wrath. Holy Sword is 2d6 versus evil, which is 1 point average more than EWS when you're fighting evil opponents - which is the big draw of a smite build. You also get a lot of weapon choice freedom when it comes to using Bless Weapon. A CoT ends up using a +3 keen'd meta weapon or a flavorful +4 off-meta weapon, both with a significant cost. But a Paladin can, like, effortlessly get a +5 keen Falchion if it wants to, for example. So there's potential for a substantial damage boost based on what kind of weapon chassis you use for Bless Weapon.

(Not to mention DR bypassing.)

Edit Addendum: You could also fit EWS on a deep paladin smiter if you really wanted to. 26 Paladin gives you room for 4 Fighter and you have the feats to spare.

I'm including Bless and Aid because, when cast by a 27 Paladin, both buffs have a 27 round duration. That happens to be the same duration of a 20 CoT's Divine Wrath if they have a 14 CHA Mod. You can extend both spells if you have the feat, too. Or just cast them again. It's lengthy enough that I feel comfortable including both in the AB calcs.
ZombieDuck wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:31 pm
I would personally not recommend Great Smiting(Which in my opinion now has high requirement for the benefit) for the build anymore.
The high Cha requirement is a lot comparing to what Str gives, but it is a comparison between AB or AC/Saves with both granting dmg, divine dmg not being reduced dmg immunities/resistance but only on when you have divines on.
As far as using Smite just casually goes, I've noticed it's very nice way to just get another extra high AB/Dmg attack per round which is not a small thing considering the Holy Sword of the Vengeance oath can refresh Smite charges.

The mentioned 27/3 builds are very typical and comfy.
3 Rogue gets Evasion/Skillpoints/2d6 sneak/Uncanny Dodge(Save that 1 dex AC while flat-footed) and Thieves Cant.
3 Bard gives 1 AB/AC/Saves song and access to Mass haste/Day harps.
3 Specialist gives Epic Skill Focus but requires normal skill focus feat.
And all 3 give access to Tumble/UMD with Bard/Specialist giving access to Spellcraft aswell.

Then there's the option of 4 Fighter/Divine Champ/Cavalier for feats mainly(Even with Fighter you'd probably want to skip weapon specilization for other feats).
Yes, I'm starting to feel that Great Smite is a bit of a trap. I might try it for the fun novelty, but going hard STR like a traditional deep paladin might be the way to go.

Or just a high CHA paladin that makes use of its epic feats in other ways.

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Dr. B
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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Dr. B » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:13 pm

Great Smite seems most suited to CoT heavy builds.

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Re: Build Feedback - Oath of Vengeance Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:29 pm

Dr. B wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 10:13 pm
Great Smite seems most suited to CoT heavy builds.
I don't know, I personally prefer a deep vengeance paladin to 20 CoT when it comes to building for Great Smites. And I'm a person that loves wedging CoT into everything. But building a deep paladin for Great Smites seems like a lesser option compared to other, better uses of a deep paladin's stats and feats.

I just don't think great smite itself is a good option atm.

Extra Smites on the other hand... add that onto every build you can.

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