Is Archery Underpowered?

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Waldo52
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Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm

Flavor is flavor but from a raw power standpoint is archery even decent? Let's exclude the arcane archer from this discussion, we all know the damage and AB there is pretty sweet.

A melee fighter can coat his weapons in poison, has more attacks with two weapon fighting than a bowman has with rapid shot, gets more reliable access to weapon enchantments that don't dissapear upon use like ammunition, can use knockdown, doesn't provoke AoO's just for fighting and can use crippling strike if he's a rogue. An archer seems much more limited.

Are archers in general kind of weak or do you think the ability to fight from a distance is just that good?

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Edens_Fall
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:32 pm

LMAO . . . . No.

AA is one of the best PvP dmg builds there are.

High stealth
High spot
High hide
Edodge
Blinding speed
AB around 61
Arrow templates for dmg
Range
Can attack while moving

They are not very good for solo grinding, but in PvP or groups they are heavy hitters. Glass cannons sums it up.

Sombricimos
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Sombricimos » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:11 pm

Let's exclude the arcane archer from this discussion
AA is one of the best PvP dmg builds there are.
Someone didn't bother reading the first line

I think Archery is in a fine place. Between rangers and their Bane of Enemies, Rogue and their sneak attack and Zen archery Clerics, I don't see much room for complaints. Anything that's not one of those three or an AA will not do good at ranged though.

If you go zen archery you can always dip monk (and lose self-esteem) for a sweet AC bonus

You can always dip fighter for a +6 dmg with WF and EWF, Bards songs will apply damage bonuses to ranged

Hexblades can't hex a bow, Assassins can't use the "assassinate" skill with ranged, but Death attack will still trigger, WM can't take anything ranged as Weapon of choice, Swash damage bonus doesn't apply to ranged

But I've been know to say that not everyone should be able to be good at everything. Maybe it's better if ranged is limited to a few class with neat stuff

EDIT : Because I clearly read the first line but not the rest, to answer your doubts :

- You can apply poison to your arrows as well
- Within the 30 ft radius for sneak attack, you will apply crippling strike with a ranged weapon. I think.
- Archers may not get KD but they can and will use called shot like there's no tomorrow
- Also, it's ranged, you will always have a few shots in advance in comparison to a melee fighter. And you can run away. Sure you have to maintain a decent stock of ammo, but it's crazy easy to do so once you get around lv 12 to 15 I'd say
And a little bonus I like to use in PvE, never had PvP so far on my ranged rogue : Traps. Traps everywhere.
Last edited by Sombricimos on Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Eyeliner » Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:12 pm

You generally do less damage but melee has to get to you to attack. An archer who knows their stuff will keep moving so that never happens. Not just AA archers either though they're pretty ridiculous. In group PVP archers are extremely annoying and can really decide who wins the fight.

Ranger archers (not AA), cleric archers and rogue archers can all be very effective and extremely strong in PVE if they have animal companions or can summon meat shields. I'm using archers generically to mean ranged weapon users of course not just bows.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Void » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:48 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:05 pm
Flavor is flavor but from a raw power standpoint is archery even decent? Let's exclude the arcane archer from this discussion, we all know the damage and AB there is pretty sweet.

A melee fighter can coat his weapons in poison, has more attacks with two weapon fighting than a bowman has with rapid shot, gets more reliable access to weapon enchantments that don't dissapear upon use like ammunition, can use knockdown, doesn't provoke AoO's just for fighting and can use crippling strike if he's a rogue. An archer seems much more limited.

Are archers in general kind of weak or do you think the ability to fight from a distance is just that good?
(this is an opinion)

Arelith is heavily melee and magic oriented, so archery takes backseat. One of the issues is that for a melee warrior one stat increases chance to hit and damage, while for an archer that only increases chance to hit.

However a plain rogue 30 archer with a shortbow is an awesome support. When paired with a character that -guards him/her, this kind of char will be dealing 15d6 per shot that landed from sneak attack alone. With rapid shot that's two leading attacks at the same AB, meaning up to 180 damage. You can increase this further by giving the poor rogue proper arrows with templates applied (that will increase damage dealt by +4 +4 +4 +1d6).The problem is the AB will be lower and the character will miss often, plus you need to be close for attacks to trigger.

A pure archer ranger will be dealing in ball park of...
4 (damask) + 4(bonus from archer) + 2d6 (bane) + 4 (positive from temlate) + 4(divine from template) + 1d6 (whatever from template)

So that's roughly 16 + 3d6 and I think there's also +7 bonus from favored enemies (assuming you're pure ranger).
Bow also can crit for x3. This character will have high AB and will be able to slow down enemies with called shot.

So you can pull targets from far away, slow them down while they run and then murder them. However, because arelith staff removed ranger hips things got... interesting.

To the date I played rogue 30 archer, normal beastmaster archer rangers and normal melee bladethirst ranger. From those three, the blade thirst melee ranger had the easiest time in PVE, archer ranger had harder time, and the life of archer rogue was full of misery all the way till roughly level 29. Those were pureclass unoptimized builds.

Speaking of stealth, hips is only allowed for shadowdancers, everybody else has to corner sneak, and there is a TON of maps with huge open areas, no corners and nothing to hide behind. That's something to keep in mind.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:17 am

On paper, by comparison, archery looks bad next to that juicy 10-20 x3 crit modifier with a weapon master (just one example of melee but the most number-weighted example I could think of) vs. the archer.

But in reality, it all depends on the kind of fight you're having/wanting to have. If, for example, the archer is eking out 20-30 damage/hit vs. the WM's 100 every other hit, that looks awful.

Until the archer lands a called shot: leg on the melee character and moves to the edge of the screen again, or corner sneaks, or uses blinding speed, and you realize that the melee has done zero damage so far and is now fighting an uphill battle to do so, where even if they cure their penalty the archer now has range to spam more called shots (which a dex archer will secure with blinding speed to double down on their already established action economy advantage).

Archery is one of those things that handles very differently depending on your familiarity with playing whatever type of archer you're playing, preferred playstyle, and player skill cap. You have some archers who know their kit well enough to never be hit (by melee, at least), and a zen archer probably has access to max spot on top of a crazy high Wis stat, so I'd be surprised if the exception of them being snuck up on/ambushed happened to that particular bracket of archers.

Everyone and their brother will tell you how terrible sneak archers are, but I have tons of fun with them. I'm also more than willing to run like a coward at the first sign of something possibly moving in a direction that's even tangential to my current location, and I enjoy the micromanagement of proximity-based aggro and DPS, whether it's PvE or PvP. For me, when it comes time for brass tacks and combat, that moment where 8 or more d6 bonus sneak damage rails into my target six times before they've realized I need to die right meow is the icing on the cake - in my head I see someone with arrows sticking out of the joints of every limb in just under six seconds.

You'd think that would get old - but it doesn't. :lol:
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Void » Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:35 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:17 am
Everyone and their brother will tell you how terrible sneak archers are,
I played sneak archer, there's awesome synergy between pure rogue bowman and certian consumable bomb. Said consumable is so awesome, that you'd end up building shrines to it and hail it as your one true god.

Unfortunately it is also hard to get on surface...

Also, when i actually partied with someone who could use -guard I realized that I created diablo archer girl. The char could keep up with an epic barbarian. As long as those sneak attacks kept landing.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:49 am

Builds focused on ranged combat aren't bad, but they require far more micromanagement than melee or magic builds. The below is from my experiences on arelith, ignoring AA, and playing mostly as a solo character.

Melee only requires you to keep track of your wands/scrolls/potions and managing your class-specific abilities and combat feats when needed. The rest comes down to proper aggro and positioning.

Magic requires spell components for arcane classes. I wish I could say you need to change your spells according to what you're about to fight, but realistically, what spells you use are going to be a small handfull of spells centered around what spell focus feats you took. Some spells as low as level 3 or 4 can see you all the way to end-game levels.

Ranged combat requires you are constantly stocked on ammo and have the ability to empower your ranged weapon templates for said ammo. On top of that, you're usually going to have several templates with different buffs, as template buffs are centered around either racial or elemental damage, which has a chance of being useless against certain enemies and you need all the damage you can squeeze out to compensate for a lower base damage.

THEN you need to figure out a way to pick things off at range without them rushing you with melee. Once upon a time, you could aggro enemies one at a time in a spawn as long as you were outside the detection range. Now, theres a good change most of the spawn will rush you. This becomes trickier with sneak-based ranged builds, as you have to be decently close to get your sneak attacks off.

Pulling a successful dedicated or semi-dedicated range build requires a lot of prepration, as well as a good working knowledge of how to manipulate enemies to avoid being rushed. Traps, darkness, stealth, terrain manipulation, and feats all help, but they're all extremely situational, with some like darkness having being nerfed to flat out be ignored by certain racial groups.

If done properly, you -can- do absurd amounts of damage with relatively little risk to yourself. Ironically, the thing that was most threatening to my ranged character was other ranged characters with better DPS. That said, its certainly not easy to pull of if you're not in a good party.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:53 am

The way ranged combat is implemented in NWN makes it seem almost unfairly powerful.
From all the offensive means available to characters, ranged attacks have the longest reach in the game. The power of this alone cannot be understated.

To offset this, as others have already mentioned in this thread, Arelith ranged builds are very high maintenance and generally unfun to play thanks to low QoL stemming from constant inventory micromanagement requirements.
Were that not the case, I am quite confident that we'd be seeing much more ranged combat oriented characters running around.

There are other directions that one can take a ranged build other than AA or sneak attacks. Zen archery is very real and abilities like divine might (favor/power...) can also be used to increase a character's damage output.


Throwing axes are nuts with some builds.

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Edens_Fall
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:08 pm

Sombricimos wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 10:11 pm

Someone didn't bother reading the first line
Reading is overrated.

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Red Ropes
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Red Ropes » Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:48 am

Archery is incredibly viable for anyone who is a ranger or a zen archer. Not even a debate - its not an AA, but they both are stable and good and have other things they can do. (Obviously discounting AA)

But it's correct to say there is no reason to do it as any other class that can't:

Cast Divine Power at minimum & have wisdom.

Be an Archer Path ranger for the extra dmg.


---

You can definitely play them as fighters and other full bab classes but your DMG will not even be close to the above. Decent, but nothing special. You might even hit more often than the above.

Doing it as a rogue or an assassin or any sort of 3/4 class that can't use Wisdom is a bit silly. You can't really be a favored soul archer due to it being cha based.

---


All of the above said?

Archery isn't underpowered at all. You can kite while doing it. You have range. You have distance. You can employ strategy to defeat both players and monsters.

Only concessions I'd give is it isn't hyper competitive (IE, PvP) if you're not the Ranger/Zen Archer Div Caster/some sort of Div Build.


But if you're standing still while being any sort of archer you're doing it wrong and its super powerful.
🤡

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:11 am

Well, rogues can just pick up a sling and they're fine at ranged for harassing with ranged sneak attacks and hit and run and getting people to follow you around corners or over traps. You don't really need to invest in being a rogue archer though WF: Missile for the ammo generation is necessary for sanity.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Void » Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:22 am

Red Ropes wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 12:48 am
Doing it as a rogue or an assassin or any sort of 3/4 class that can't use Wisdom
Uh? Rogue or assassin have dex for that.
Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:11 am
Well, rogues can just pick up a sling and they're fine at ranged for harassing with ranged sneak attacks and hit and run and getting people to follow you around corners or over traps. You don't really need to invest in being a rogue archer though WF: Missile for the ammo generation is necessary for sanity.
Picking rapid shot does almost the same thing for a rogue as picking ambidexterity + two weapon fighting. You get two attacks at the same AB instead of one, at -2 penalty, except you don't need to go into melee range with your target. That requires two feat investment or multiclassing into archer ranger.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Waldo52
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:57 pm

I feel way better about trying an archer now. Thank you, hive mind.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Roadkill64 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:58 pm

I started ranger archer character and noticed that when I'm on the move i take -15 to my attack!!!!!!. So ability to keep moving and shooting is highly overrated. In my experience so far (5th level), doing it solo is very painful (i will get 2 or 3 shots max and have to switch to sword and shield to stay alive). Archer needs blockers to be able to keep shooting and damage output is low at low levels. So yes, archers are underpowered (at least at low levels).

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by ReverentBlade » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:01 pm

I feel like Arcane Archer's strength holds the rest of us bow-users that don't want to be elves hostage. Ranged nerf should have been AA nerf.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by fading » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:12 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:01 pm
I feel like Arcane Archer's strength holds the rest of us bow-users that don't want to be elves hostage. Ranged nerf should have been AA nerf.
I don't think arcane archers need a nerf either imo. They're decent (or were, not sure how things will be after the update), but I don't think they're particularly OP. Zen archer clerics on the other hand..

Roadkill64
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Roadkill64 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:57 pm

I think better question is, is archer fun to play, and my experience so far says BIG NO. The -15 to hit modifier turns me into soft stationary target that is forced to fight with melee weapons that I have no skills or feats for.

I think so far I killed way more with my sword then bow….forget underpowered, how about unfun.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by fading » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:56 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:18 pm
It's supposed to be unfun and should stay that way.
Nice bait, but stick to constructive comments.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Exordius » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:54 am

I would say with the -15 penalty its a waste of time now. Better to go melee or caster at this point...

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-XXX-
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jan 15, 2022 12:22 pm

Interesting, I'd argue that -15 AB might not be sufficient when considering that Arcane Archer builds can have 57 AB.

Roadkill64
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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Roadkill64 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:53 pm

You are assuming 30th level AA, first you have to get there, at lower levels -15 to hit modifier makes your actual AB in negatives. I can't hit a side of the barn, forget something that is trying to kill me. Even at middle levels (10 to 16) -15 is crippling your attacks.

It's very harsh nerf that does not scale well to lower levels.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Nobs » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:38 pm

Perhaps just remove all the + damage stuff from archery like the arrows and templates and then just put the 'many shot feat' in the game and remove the -15 ab when moving.

Becouse yeah....i can see why leveling a archer now is hot kaka. (And it was already rather rough to level them)

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by fading » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:35 pm

Roadkill64 wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:53 pm
You are assuming 30th level AA, first you have to get there, at lower levels -15 to hit modifier makes your actual AB in negatives. I can't hit a side of the barn, forget something that is trying to kill me. Even at middle levels (10 to 16) -15 is crippling your attacks.

It's very harsh nerf that does not scale well to lower levels.
Maybe it should scale then, according to either level or ab. Didn't even think of that but it seems like the perfect middle ground of easing the leveling experience and nerfing end game pvp.

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Re: Is Archery Underpowered?

Post by Barkoneus » Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:40 pm

I leveled my AA before the -15 movement penalty, but I also wasn't aware that you could shoot while running back then so it would not be any different for me to level now.

Leveling an archer has always been, and will likely always be, about finding someone to adventure with. I can't imagine any way to make archers viable solo that would not also make them overpowered when in a group. Certainly you can solo content, but it's likely much lower-level content than other builds would be soloing.

I got extremely lucky and found a very reliable leveling companion and had a great time leveling my archer. It made the solo (slow, patient, stealthy) parts of my leveling fun because it provided a nice change of pace.

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