Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

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Nintendo Entertainment System
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Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:08 am

Hello folks! Asking for feedback / criticism on another build. The basic idea is a paladin that is also a ninja.
Stealthy Ninja Paladin (26 Vengeance / 4 Rogue, Human)
Weapon of Choice: Wakizashi

STR 13
DEX 16 (18 gift) -> 24
CON 10
INT 13
WIS 8
CHA 15 (17 gift) -> 18

1R Power Attack, Expertise
2R [Free: Finesse]
3R Exotic Weapon Proficiency
6P Divine Shield
9P Weapon Focus: 1H [Free: Extra Smiting]
12P Imp. Critical: 1H
15P Imp. Expertise
18P Blind Fight
19P [Free: Divine Might, Great Smiting I]
21P Epic Weapon Focus
24P Spell Focus: Abjuration
26P [Paladin Bonus: Armor Skin]
27P Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration
29R <- Skill Dump
30P ESF: Discipline, [Paladin Bonus: Epic Prowess]

51 AB: 24 BAB + 13 DEX + 3 T3 Pal + 5 Weapon + 4 Feats + 2 Bless/Aid
63 AC, 73 AC /w Imp Expertise: 10 Base + 16 Cloth/Dex + 2 Armor Skin + 6 Tumble + 1 Boots + 1 MA + 3 Helmet + 4 Barkskin + 6 Shield + 4 Haste + 10 Divine Shield

44.5 Average On-Hit Damage: 4.5 Wakizashi + 6 Slashing + 5 Piercing + 4 STR (No gear, just +5 from Bull's) + 12 Divine Might + 3 T3 Oath + 6 Deafening Clang + 4 Perm Essence

240 Skill Points: 33 Disc, 30 Tumble, 32 Hide / MS, 33 Leadership, 25 UMD, 25 Lore, 30 Parry (for the 1h Wakizashi aesthetic) or Concentration (boring option; I'd use Enchanted Shield to minimize the armor check penalty to stealth and pilfer 3 points from Lore)
So the reason I'm using wakizashi here is that the default damask versions have a bonus damage type that do not match the weapon's base damage type, so they fully stack with Bless Weapon. Bless Weapon on a Masterly Damask Wakizashi, for example, nets 11 physical damage.

That might change, depending on whether the devs see this is a bug or just something that needs fixing! If so, either a Dead Man's Cross or a Black Scepter can work as well for stacking damage, or one can simply stick with the wakizashi for thematics.

A rapier also works if I want to go the route of a swashbuckling paladin, similar to the investigator prelate NPC from Sembia in the Radiant Heart.

In any case, please do let me know if I've made any major errors in the build above or if I've missed anything critical!

AstralUniverse
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:14 am

Dex based is bad here. You get about 2-3 lower AC as str based and you have much better damage, higher ab, better stats/feats allocation and you then dont need 4th rogue either.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:40 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:14 am
Dex based is bad here. You get about 2-3 lower AC as str based and you have much better damage, higher ab, better stats/feats allocation and you then dont need 4th rogue either.
Well, now you're talking about a completely different character. If you're doing STR instead of DEX, there's no 'ninja' in ninja paladin.

Anyways, if the above build drinks a shield pot for 4 Deflect, it gets 64 AC pre-expertise. I'd love to see what kind of setup you're using to get 66-67 AC on a STR paladin prior to expertise.

4th rogue is there because, without starting rogue, you don't get 1) Enough skill points to get both Hide and Move Silently without dropping one of the other important skills listed, and 2) You don't get free Finesse until late epics, which sounds like a horrible leveling experience for a dex build.

Obviously, you're going to get more AB and DMG if you focus STR on a venge paladin with full 25 BAB. But that's not a ninja, that's just a normal paladin in full plate!

AstralUniverse
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:49 am

To clarify, str based gets 2-3 ac *lower* than dex based, this is because you only reach 36 max dex and because there's a full plate +4 and towershield +4, then the ac you gain from going dex is insignificant. you've also screwed up your stats by having to have 13 str, you dropped 1 cl, a lot of damage and at least 1 ab. Not worth.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


MRFTW
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by MRFTW » Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:02 am

I appreciate why you went rogue at level 1 for the skillpoints, but I'd figure out some way to lose them from somewhere (leadership?) to nab that extra 1 BAB. you also lose a bit on reflex saves but that shouldn't be too bad with evasion + div/dex. Levelling without finesse will suck, but div/dex ranged damage is good, just needs a summon or friend.

Having 7 ranks in hide/ms until level 29 will making pre-30 ninjaing very difficult. You can RP around it, sure, but my worry is it's not mechanically there, which bothers me but might be fine for you. I'd lose exotic weapons for KD personally, but if darts aren't ninja-ish enough for you, I get it.

Completely seperately, I too was thinking of a ninja paladin but I came up with 19 rogue / 5 Loremaster / 6 Paladin which is obviously very different.

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:26 pm

MRFTW wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:02 am
I appreciate why you went rogue at level 1 for the skillpoints, but I'd figure out some way to lose them from somewhere (leadership?) to nab that extra 1 BAB. you also lose a bit on reflex saves but that shouldn't be too bad with evasion + div/dex. Levelling without finesse will suck, but div/dex ranged damage is good, just needs a summon or friend.

Having 7 ranks in hide/ms until level 29 will making pre-30 ninjaing very difficult. You can RP around it, sure, but my worry is it's not mechanically there, which bothers me but might be fine for you. I'd lose exotic weapons for KD personally, but if darts aren't ninja-ish enough for you, I get it.

Completely seperately, I too was thinking of a ninja paladin but I came up with 19 rogue / 5 Loremaster / 6 Paladin which is obviously very different.
Leveling with darts until epic finesse is something I didn't consider! I might have to play around with shifting rogue into epic levels, but it's going to be really hard on the skill points unless I delete one of the skills mentioned. I'd really like to have all the skills mentioned, enough that I value it over the 1AB.

You're right about the pre-30 ninja'ing. It's not as bad as it seems as full dex and starting hide/ms plus a few pieces of gear puts stealth at mid 20s to 30 until the skill dump. I've found that tends to be enough to get past most mobs well into epics, and the occasional one that spots you due to the random added detect skills script can be led away and killed on its own.

It is tempting to axe Exotic for KD. I want to keep it just because wakizashi has a rather insane synergy with Bless Weapon / Bladethirst right now. (And I've never used that weapon type on a character before.) If that's ever changed, I'd definitely consider swapping it for KD and using a dagger or rapier instead.

The other builds I considered for this is ye olde rogue div dip, and a divine swash. But I've enjoyed both before and opted for something new. And despite this setup just being a point or two behind on dex div swash on AB/AC, it's got a few interesting things going for it including divine synergy and holy sword. Expertise tanking to prolong a fight, for example, is a lot more interesting when holy sword is steadily whittling away at the opponent's buffs.

One option suggested via the official discord was to go Reckoning instead of Vengeance, so that AC can go up to 75 (shield pot) while regenerating 5 a round.

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:20 pm

Consider doing monk instead of rogue. You lose UMD, but you'll retain evasion and get AC from wisdom. You will still be able to use divine wands.

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Good Character » Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:04 pm

Paladins are based off CHA now. Monk AC will be moot, especially in the presence of divine shield.

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:31 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:20 pm
Consider doing monk instead of rogue. You lose UMD, but you'll retain evasion and get AC from wisdom. You will still be able to use divine wands.
Monk WIS AC no longer stacks with Divine Shield and Paladins are now 8 WIS creatures (a bit weird, but it is what it is). Also, Monk doesn't offer free Finesse so I'd have to axe a feat to get it otherwise.

There really isn't a lot of synergy between monk and paladin these days. If I wanted to do a divine monk, I'd be much better served going cleric. Or shaman, depending on the thematics.

In this case, I'm looking to make a stealthy paladin so combinations with rogue seem like the best bet!

Archnon
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Archnon » Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:25 am

Have you considered a paladin/invisibile blade combo. You could go 4 IB, 3 at around level 18 and 1 in the epic levels. Could be really fun.

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by Nintendo Entertainment System » Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:49 pm

Archnon wrote:
Fri Feb 11, 2022 1:25 am
Have you considered a paladin/invisibile blade combo. You could go 4 IB, 3 at around level 18 and 1 in the epic levels. Could be really fun.
I hadn't actually considered it! IB would give full BAB with access to tumble and hide/ms (at the cost of UMD), it's true. IB abilities would also add more damage, which is never unwelcome.

The big drawback I see is the feat tax on a feat-tight build. I'd have to buy Finesse and get Improved Reflexes, meaning I'd need to axe two feats elsewhere. It'd likely come down to dropping either abj foci or expertise.

I'll probably not for the feat reason. Still, the double burst of eviscerate and smite sounds like fun!

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by xf1313 » Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:41 pm

To be more ‘ninja’ perhaps pal level can be dropped a bit further. 24 roguish level and 6 paladin feels more ‘ninjia’, and that can be replaced with DC or BG of serving evil deity! 16 pal is not bad either

In this case, you’d net the extra 2 ab to weapon from class, epic dodge, I know the divine shield would get axed but hey, no one said anything about divine wrath (so DC with extra feat is welcome). Even so, 6 pal level gets you a bit of bonus.

You’d need to start with a moon elf, drow, or Lightfoot to get the stat
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

SinderBlok
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by SinderBlok » Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:30 pm

Hey, now that Weapon Finesse doesn't use up a feat nowadays... IB may be more viable?

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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by xf1313 » Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:56 am

Turns out I drafted out a fun monk pal build, I am giving it to a friend to play, start with 10str, 19dex, 10 con, 16 wis, 14cha monk, katana pal, entirely up to the other one to decide if this monk is going 14/16 or 4/26. No plan to rely on divine shield or might. I have to say the ab is not bad at all, if u think about it....a bit Surmari-ish。

Maybe monk/SD pal is also a way to go for ninjas
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Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

AstralUniverse
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Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:26 pm

xf1313 wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:56 am
No plan to rely on divine shield or might.
Probably a bad idea. Why even go paladin in that point?
xf1313 wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:56 am
I have to say the ab is not bad at all, if u think about it
We cant really read minds so we dont know what build you are planning and it's ab score, so we cant really have a concrete opinion.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


xf1313
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Location: China

Re: Build Feedback - Ninja Paladin

Post by xf1313 » Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:30 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:26 pm
xf1313 wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:56 am
No plan to rely on divine shield or might.
Probably a bad idea. Why even go paladin in that point?
xf1313 wrote:
Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:56 am
I have to say the ab is not bad at all, if u think about it
We cant really read minds so we dont know what build you are planning and it's ab score, so we cant really have a concrete opinion.
Lol, this is a build for fun, going Paladin because that character is a paladin. Like, if combat power is valued, 26monk/4pal is still reasonable. Otherwise 26pal/4 monk, the robed epic dodge pal is very unusual don’t you think? This character will not win every combat, but she will be super fast and can laugh at other bulky Paladins for not able to climb a robe

It is a dex build, starting 19 dexterity, end 26,
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

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