New Bard Build Brainstorming

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MRFTW
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New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by MRFTW » Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:45 pm

Hi folks,

What're your thoughts on new bard builds?

How do the old bard builds stand up against the changes?

What sorts of level splits do you think look good?

Looking forward to hearing what you builders have come up with so far. :)

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Ork
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Ork » Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:26 am

Gold dwarf high CON & CHA 30 bard seems the only optimal way to play this.

MRFTW
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by MRFTW » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:44 pm

Ork wrote:
Fri Mar 25, 2022 1:26 am
Gold dwarf high CON & CHA 30 bard seems the only optimal way to play this.
Is that for lich lyrics DC?

xf1313
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by xf1313 » Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:11 am

30 bard has own bonus, and just from the limited info, 4pal or DC, BG is still going to be valid build.

It would make bard AA has better songs

I am tempted to make a bard/lore master someday, that would only work well as rp build...I think, unless lm count as bard lv.
Wild-elf Druid Laurifin Goldenleaf
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Archnon
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Archnon » Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:11 pm

Warlock 25, bard 5, feylock with summons. Caster base so any high charisma build. Take agonizing blast for that level 25 feat. I'd play it as a forest gnome for thematic elements.

Shame you dont get bard song at 3 so you could do 24 warlock 3 bard 3 blackguard for divine grace.

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Ork
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Ork » Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 am

xf1313 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:11 am
30 bard has own bonus, and just from the limited info, 4pal or DC, BG is still going to be valid build.

It would make bard AA has better songs

I am tempted to make a bard/lore master someday, that would only work well as rp build...I think, unless lm count as bard lv.
Div dip is no longer valid due to the reduction of bard song in armor. Div dip died a long time ago, truth told. Bard is too feat intensive.

Spriggan Bride
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Spriggan Bride » Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:19 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 am
Div dip is no longer valid due to the reduction of bard song in armor.
I can't find this on the wiki. What does this mean exactly?

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Skarain
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Skarain » Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:53 am

Spriggan Bride wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 6:19 am
Ork wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 am
Div dip is no longer valid due to the reduction of bard song in armor.
I can't find this on the wiki. What does this mean exactly?
It reads under Arelith updates, under the recent Bard changes. Essentially, your bard song or the AC given by bard song is reduced by -3 for wearing heavy armor.

xf1313
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by xf1313 » Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:10 am

Ork wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 am
xf1313 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:11 am
30 bard has own bonus, and just from the limited info, 4pal or DC, BG is still going to be valid build.

It would make bard AA has better songs

I am tempted to make a bard/lore master someday, that would only work well as rp build...I think, unless lm count as bard lv.
Div dip is no longer valid due to the reduction of bard song in armor. Div dip died a long time ago, truth told. Bard is too feat intensive.
Agree with feat intensive, but not with the dip, because one doesn’t have to wear heavy amour
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Drow shadowlord Lomin Nightshade

Good Character
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Good Character » Sun Mar 27, 2022 12:25 pm

xf1313 wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 11:10 am
Ork wrote:
Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:21 am
xf1313 wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 5:11 am
30 bard has own bonus, and just from the limited info, 4pal or DC, BG is still going to be valid build.

It would make bard AA has better songs

I am tempted to make a bard/lore master someday, that would only work well as rp build...I think, unless lm count as bard lv.
Div dip is no longer valid due to the reduction of bard song in armor. Div dip died a long time ago, truth told. Bard is too feat intensive.
Agree with feat intensive, but not with the dip, because one doesn’t have to wear heavy amour
The reason you want to wear heavy armor is to not have to place any gearing into DEX so you can max CHA. Assuming you go the usual divine dip, you sit at 8 base DEX; you'll need another 10 just to use a piece of armor that maximizes your AC which is Songsword's Guard.

You could go Songsword's and Infiltration to double dip into DEX and perform, but that only gets you 3 DEX. That plus 5 from Cat's leaves you with another 2 pieces of gear that require DEX.

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Ork
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Ork » Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:09 pm

You also recognize you're losing -2ac from not being able (or at least strongly demotivated) to use tower shield and FP. Div dip is dead, and in fact I'd call it a trap.

Lasos
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Lasos » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:27 am

Have anyone pieced a spreadsheet together for 30 bard? Or any bard build after the recent changes really. Would love to get a peak and some inspiration myself.

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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Good Character » Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:52 pm

Lasos wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:27 am
Have anyone pieced a spreadsheet together for 30 bard? Or any bard build after the recent changes really. Would love to get a peak and some inspiration myself.
Melee or caster-oriented? I came make something up. Melee admittedly hasn't changed too much.

Lasos
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Lasos » Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:01 pm

Good Character wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 12:52 pm
Lasos wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:27 am
Have anyone pieced a spreadsheet together for 30 bard? Or any bard build after the recent changes really. Would love to get a peak and some inspiration myself.
Melee or caster-oriented? I came make something up. Melee admittedly hasn't changed too much.
I am looking at creating a melee build that still nets Song of the heart, but I am wondering if there's an alternative take on it. Not sure if that route is optimal at all for a melee bard, so having a look at a different build (with or without Song of the heart) would be nice to see if there are routes other than the one I've come up with so far.

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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Good Character » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:57 pm

Lasos wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 3:01 pm
I am looking at creating a melee build that still nets Song of the heart, but I am wondering if there's an alternative take on it. Not sure if that route is optimal at all for a melee bard, so having a look at a different build (with or without Song of the heart) would be nice to see if there are routes other than the one I've come up with so far.
Impossible to build for that feat as a melee character. If we assume the usual 14 INT and at least 12 CON for melee builds, your STR or DEX score is going to between 8 and 12 with no chance of it ever getting higher.

Lasos
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Lasos » Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:38 pm

True, it will be a weak melee fighter, but could perhaps be done to create a strong support with some melee capabilities. I was looking at something like this:

Race: Human

STR 15 --> 16 (1 levels)
DEX 8
CON 14 --> 16 (gift)
WIS 8
INT 14
CHA 16 --> 18 (gift) --> 25 (6 (levels + 1x Great CHA))

Bard 1 Expertise Improved Expertise
Bard 2
Bard 3 Curse Song
Bard 4
Bard 5
Bard 6 Weapon Focus: 1H Edged
Bard 7
Bard 8
Bard 9 Blind Fight
Bard 10 Extra Music
Bard 11
Bard 12 Improved Critical: 1H Edged
Bard 13
Bard 14
Bard 15 Extend Spell
Bard 16
Bard 17
Bard 18 Craft Wand
Bard 19
Bard 20
Bard 21 Epic Skill Focus: Perform
Bard 22
Bard 23 Lasting Inspiration
Bard 24 Unremitting Cadence
Bard 25
Bard 26 Epic Weapon Focus: 1H Edged
Bard 27 Great Charisma I
Bard 28
Bard 29 Song of the Heart
Bard 30 Free feat (Lingering Song/Armor Skin/Toughness)

AB
BAB : 20
Strength: 9
Focus: 1
Epic Focus: 2
Enchantment: 4
Bard song: 4
War Cry: 2
Total: 42

I have not considered Selfish Solo since that wont be used in a support role.

HP: 450. Lots of skillspoints (297). AB and damage is quite low (low str and no Weapon Spec. from ie. fighter). Could reach up to 56 (58 with AS) AC pre IE. Awkward 37 max CHA. Very hard to gear though.

However, it seems this build would reap most of the benefits from the support capabilities, while retaining at least some offensive capacity. AB is low, but when needed, a curse song would be able to remove 6 (potentially 7) AC from targets with the lowest possible song recharge timer and 34 songs available at max.

I have however not yet looked at a pure support/caster bard, so I am not exactly sure what it is missing out on. It does seem to me that for instance Spell Foci is not super worth it, since Epic Spell Foci is not available to the bard and the bard spell progression caps out at level 6 spells (with a couple of notable exception). Not sure how good the new Lich song would be at level 30.

Any insight/suggestions would be very welcome.

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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Good Character » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:08 pm

Lasos wrote:
Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:38 pm
Actually, this might be doable (though not great); it provides you the option to be melee-centric or offer up bonuses as a support-based character. I would move the Gift to CON to STR instead.

With Selfish Solo being used, you'll be at:
BAB 20
Strength 10
3 Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus
4 Enhancement
3 Baseline Bard Song
1 Song of Heart
2 Selfish Solo

That totals 43. However, Curse Song smacks for 6 AC and you'll be using it for every encounter now that it's a separate set of charges. That's 49 effective AB.

The issue is, as you pointed out, the damage. I would frankly dump Extra Music and move Craft Wand to the bonus feat slot or dump Craft Wand. I would slip in Exotic proficiency so you could take Bec De Corbin.

Damage would look like (on average):
5 Cavalier Hammer
3 Bless Weapon
4 bonus slashing (Bec de Corbin)
2 Baseline Bard Song
1 Song of Heart
3 Selfish Solo
10 Strength
4 Permanent Essence

That comes out to 32 average damage. Admittedly not impressive to any degree, but it's an option now to look at.

I would also argue taking Knockdown as that last free feat. With Taunt, the skill reduction Curse Song brings, and Selfish Solo providing a full extra BAB APR you'll be landing Knockdowns often.

Lasos
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Lasos » Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:47 am

Good point on the Bec De Corbin, I was actually a bit mentally stuck on the Elfblade for this build (old habit I suppose). I would argue that perhaps the Black Scepter is a better alternative, giving potentially slightly more dmg without costing the extra Exotic Weapons feat.

Average damage:
3.5 Black Scepter
3 Bless Weapon
4 Bonus Bludg.
2.5 Bonus Pierce
2.5 Bonus Elemental (from runic, already has Keen - actually stacks with perm essence from my test on PGCC)
4 Permanent Essence
2 Baseline Bard Song
1 Song of the Heart
3 Selfish Solo
10 Strength
Total: 35.5. My calculations show that even the 2d8 massive critical on Bec is not enough to compete with this difference.

Knockdown is an interesting take, I had not considered the combination of Taunt+Curse song (lowering AC ~12 and Discipline with up to 23 with Conq. Cantice), so is likely worth it at the free feat at level 30. I like Extra Music for both the song recharge timer reduction and the extra songs. Curse song is actually not a separate set of charges (I thought so as well, but just tested it on PGCC), but rather recharges a use 1 minute faster than a regular song. So if I wanted to use Curse Song at every encounter, I would probably benefit from the extra 3 minutes lowered song recharge timer that Extra Music provides. Craft wand is, I guess, more a personal preference, since I like Dweomercrafting level 3. Gift of STR rather than CON also seems worthwhile, I have no idea if there are "threshold HP pools" that are optimal, perhaps 420 HP is enough.

Good Character
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Re: New Bard Build Brainstorming

Post by Good Character » Sat Apr 02, 2022 12:28 pm

Lasos wrote:
Sat Apr 02, 2022 8:47 am
Good point on the Bec De Corbin, I was actually a bit mentally stuck on the Elfblade for this build (old habit I suppose). I would argue that perhaps the Black Scepter is a better alternative, giving potentially slightly more dmg without costing the extra Exotic Weapons feat.

Average damage:
3.5 Black Scepter
3 Bless Weapon
4 Bonus Bludg.
2.5 Bonus Pierce
2.5 Bonus Elemental (from runic, already has Keen - actually stacks with perm essence from my test on PGCC)
4 Permanent Essence
2 Baseline Bard Song
1 Song of the Heart
3 Selfish Solo
10 Strength
Total: 35.5. My calculations show that even the 2d8 massive critical on Bec is not enough to compete with this difference.
Bless Weapon doesn't stack with Scepter since Scepter already offers a higher Enhancement bonus. Scepter is also in the Tiny subgroup so you're extremely subsceptible to disarm attempts.

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