Two questions...

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Exordius
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Two questions...

Post by Exordius » Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:47 am

How important is having the absolute highest ac you can get and how many ranks in discipline is considered the bare minimum?

Some are telling me that going for super high ac on a non melee character is a waste of resources and that its better to throw out ac entirely, does having 50+ ac vs. 20 matter for such a build and pvp survivability. And with taking monk i can get up to 32 discipline, is that a decent amount?

Good Character
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Re: Two questions...

Post by Good Character » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:08 am

Bare minimum discipline to make it worth is 67; melee builds have an average of 48 AB. 48 + 19 (as nat 20s are an automatic success for attackers, but equaling the DC for non-nat 20s makes you succeed) is 67. However, realistically you want 70. To be competitive? 75. Mind you this is 33 base skillpoints + gear + STR modifier.

AC falls in the same bucket, honestly. You'll never achieve the numbers above, so classes have inherit ways to give other defenses (i.e. strong offense, healing, high HP, immunities/resistances, etc). However, STR builds tend to be around 52-56 while DEX builds are in the 60s with Epic Dodge (a pseudo extra 5 AC but better).

Exordius
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Re: Two questions...

Post by Exordius » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:27 am

So no point keeping 32 discipline then given there is no way i can get anywhere near 60+. With a build that does not have adequate discipline, does having high ac still matter if the build is not intended to be front line and since its assumed that every melee build worth its salt has knockdown and without discipline you are pretty much screwed anyway if it connects regardless of ac?

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Re: Two questions...

Post by Good Character » Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:58 am

AC is even more important. Aside from nat 20s, Knockdown can't land if they can't even hit you.

It's true, though. Your AC will never be high enough to negate the bonuses if they land the Knockdown (i.e. they flatfoot you and get a +4 AB from you being prone).

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-XXX-
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Re: Two questions...

Post by -XXX- » Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:55 am

Discipline is an opposed check. That means any discipline value comparable to the attacker's AB is technically not irrelevant as it gives you at least a slight chance of resisting their KD attempt if you roll well.

Otherwise GoodCharacter's math seems sound : 48 AB would result in an opposed roll of discipline+1d20 vs. a DC of 44+1d20 (KD is made at -4 ab penalty). Assuming that your toon is human(~sized) you'd want 64 discipline to be relatively safe here, 68 if they have IKD, 72 if they have IKD and are a firbolg.

Similarly an AC value of ~54 is where it starts becoming relevant for PvP. It's not so much for the purposes of your character not getting hit at all but rather not getting hit as often. So yeah, you'll still need reliable discipline to do melee regardless of AC*.


There's a plethora of variables to this though (true strike potions and size modifiers are a thing for example), but as a rule of a thumb unless your toon has both 54+ AC and 68+ discipline, they should probably stay as far away from melee as possible.


*OK, technically this isn't 100% correct as in instances where the toon's AC would be 21 higher than their discipline stat, they'd be unable to succeed any opposed check against an attack roll necessary to hit them, rendering the discipline ranks pointless in such cases.

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Re: Two questions...

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:20 pm

There is no benchmark for AC. AC scores come in all values. I'd say if your AC is lower than 45 fully hasted then you should stop looking at your character's AC and neglect it entirely. The threshold where AC becomes an overkill is around 80-85 AC and only very specific memes reach that (at the cost of anything useful they could do instead).


Discipline is more straight forward and easier to know how much you need:
A dedicated caster for example, has no intention to ever stand in one place and face-tanking people who use True Strike, so these casters can also get away with 62-65 discipline.
A 2handed barbarian for example, wants to really make use of their HP pool, as their AC is none existent but their damage is very high and therefore the character DOES want to face-tank people who drink true strike and also do it themselves. These builds need 75-80 discipline to really play it safe.
These are the two extremes so all characters in arelith (depending on what they want to do in combat) should aim for the range between those extremes.
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Waldo52
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Re: Two questions...

Post by Waldo52 » Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:48 pm

How should rogues and other dex based martial builds approach discipline?

My current toon has a strength score of 9 and will never go higher than this before wards, so his prospects for having decent discipline are less than stellar.

Assuming 14 strength from warding and 32/33 ranks in discipline he will only teach 34 or 35 pre-gear. And then when I think about how much gear and feat investment he would need to be "good" at discipline I'm tempted to abandon the skill altogether and take zero ranks. Is this a reasonable approach?

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Re: Two questions...

Post by MissEvelyn » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:17 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:48 pm
How should rogues and other dex based martial builds approach discipline?

My current toon has a strength score of 9 and will never go higher than this before wards, so his prospects for having decent discipline are less than stellar.

Assuming 14 strength from warding and 32/33 ranks in discipline he will only teach 34 or 35 pre-gear. And then when I think about how much gear and feat investment he would need to be "good" at discipline I'm tempted to abandon the skill altogether and take zero ranks. Is this a reasonable approach?

The trick is to not get hit in the first place. When playing a caster, especially one with no discipline and low AC, you want to be tactful about your positioning - and you also want an easy way out if things turn bad, like Greater Sanctuary or equivalent.


Exordius
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Re: Two questions...

Post by Exordius » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:26 pm

Ok so don't bother with the discipline but do try to get as much ac as possible, thanks for the help. :)

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-XXX-
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Re: Two questions...

Post by -XXX- » Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:50 pm

Any character who wants to get workable discipline needs to heavily gear for disc and STR.
A STR 8 character can buff their STR stat to 20/+5. A fully buffed STR based build will most likely have STR 40/+15.
That's a 10 discipline ranks difference = just take ESF:discipline to cover the difference.

The opportunity cost of getting servicable discipline is rather excessive - and that applies to any build. The alternative is forgoing discipline altogether and pretty much having to stay clear of melee at all times. Toons standing back up after getting knocked down during PvP encounters isn't something that really happens.
Exordius wrote:
Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:26 pm
Ok so don't bother with the discipline but do try to get as much ac as possible
With 0 ranks in discipline, even sitting behind 60AC will still result in your toon getting knocked down 25% of the time by an AB48 melee build.
What you actually wanna do is take 33 discipline ranks, ESF:disc, then put +1 STR and +2 disc on all your gear.

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Re: Two questions...

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:01 am

A rogue has Epic dodge right? That's like +5 discipline when you think about it. So if a rogue is a character that wants to kite a lot and not face tank true-strikers, they can totally feel comfortable with about 58-60 discipline, because with Epic dodge it's as if they had 5 more than that, which is good enough and can be done with 33 ranks + 10 ESF discipline (which is mandatory for a dexer) + 2 str mod with str potion and we're already at 45. Gearing 15 discipline is very doable for pretty much any rogue.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Waldo52
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Re: Two questions...

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:38 am

AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:01 am
A rogue has Epic dodge right? That's like +5 discipline when you think about it. So if a rogue is a character that wants to kite a lot and not face tank true-strikers, they can totally feel comfortable with about 58-60 discipline, because with Epic dodge it's as if they had 5 more than that, which is good enough and can be done with 33 ranks + 10 ESF discipline (which is mandatory for a dexer) + 2 str mod with str potion and we're already at 45. Gearing 15 discipline is very doable for pretty much any rogue.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't there some kind of bug where knockdown bypasses e-dodge? Please tell me I'm wrong.

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Re: Two questions...

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:02 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:38 am
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:01 am
A rogue has Epic dodge right? That's like +5 discipline when you think about it. So if a rogue is a character that wants to kite a lot and not face tank true-strikers, they can totally feel comfortable with about 58-60 discipline, because with Epic dodge it's as if they had 5 more than that, which is good enough and can be done with 33 ranks + 10 ESF discipline (which is mandatory for a dexer) + 2 str mod with str potion and we're already at 45. Gearing 15 discipline is very doable for pretty much any rogue.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't there some kind of bug where knockdown bypasses e-dodge? Please tell me I'm wrong.
I almost want to say it sounds familiar from ancient times before EE but... no, I havent heard about anything like that in my 15 years playing here as far as I remember. But lets say it's true hypothetically... so it basically means rogues need to actually reach 63-65 disc without an 'invisible' +5, which is still very much in realms of easily doable.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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msterswrdsmn
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Re: Two questions...

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:55 am

Is this for PVP or PVE?

If you're really concerned about discipline dumps, try figuring out what your end-game AC is going to look like. If you can't get your discipline 15ish points higher than your AC, then it probably isn't worth heavily investing in. If your discipline score is the same or lower than your AC, its effectively useless, as anything that can bypass your AC is effectively too high for your lower discipline score to counter.

For higher difficulty, but not extreme-end pve? around 60ish AC is what i've found to be a comfortable number. Again, because of timezone and playtime issues, I usually solo, so I can't do something like, a deep dive into Baator or the beholders with these numbers, but i can still comfortably explore most of the server. Be very, VERY aware of what your AC sources are, as what is displayed on your charactersheet may not be your true AC (Ex: loosing dodge AC from being flatfooted can loose your average build 6 to 10 AC and it won't be reflected on your charactersheet.)

This is, however, on a melee build without the support of summons, high end buffs, henchmen, a horse, or whatever else has changed in the last 3 years that lets you get more milage out of a character.

As for how important AC is overall? Depends on your build. A caster that sits in stealth/invisbility spamming empowered summons will almost never get directly attacked and likely doesn't need AC as much, for example. A barbarian that ignores the first 12 points or so of physical damage per blow with an HP pool of 800+ isn't going to be AS reliant on AC, but they're still going to want to crank that as high as they can since they're going to be directly targeted a lot.

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Re: Two questions...

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:25 pm

msterswrdsmn wrote:
Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:55 am
If you're really concerned about discipline dumps, try figuring out what your end-game AC is going to look like. If you can't get your discipline 15ish points higher than your AC, then it probably isn't worth heavily investing in. If your discipline score is the same or lower than your AC, its effectively useless, as anything that can bypass your AC is effectively too high for your lower discipline score to counter.
This statement assumes your AC remains static over a fight and you never go flat-footed even for a milisecond to kite or use a kit-like item or ability that flat-foots you, and then your AC is much lower and discipline is supposed to be what keeps you on your feet. There's also dispels/breaches etc.

It is generally recommended not to look at your AC to determine your discipline necessity, it is more recommended to look at common AB numbers for popular meta builds with/without true strike, according to what your build wants to do.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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