This tank build

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TurningLeaf
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This tank build

Post by TurningLeaf » Fri Apr 08, 2022 10:30 pm

I was loving this tank build in testing. A shield dwarf lawful neutral worshiper of Vergadain, handy with locks and traps and really really hard to kill. There are gnome and halfling variants but size category stuff makes dwarf better for a tank I think.

13 Rogue/13 Earthkin Defender/4 Fighter
Highlights - epic dodge, DR 18, deflect arrows, 9 hp/rd regen, big HP pool, nice saves, rogue abilities

Deflect arrows becomes an option due to Arelith parry implementation- you don't lose much AC when situationally ditching the shield.

Str 12
Dex 16 + 2 gift=18 .. all increases to dex
Con 18 + 2 gift=20
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 6

Lvls 1-10 Rogue
Feats: Toughness, Expertise, Knockdown, Improved Expertise
Class Feat: Improved Evasion

Lvls 11-20 EKD
Feats: Improved Knockdown, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows
Class Feats: Iron Stance, Mounting Resistance 1/2, Safeguard 1

Epic order can be toyed with, went for rushing EDR3 and Epic Dodge here:
21 Ftr 1 Great Dex 1, Epic Dam. Red. 1
22 Ftr 2 Epic Dam. Red. 2
23 Ftr 3
24 Ftr 4 Blinding Speed, Epic Dam. Red. 3
25 Rogue 11
26 Rogue 12
27 Rogue 13 Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge
28 EKD 11
29 EKD 12
30 EKD 13 Armor Skin, Mounting Resistance 3

Skill pts: 294, 30 tumble and 30 parry req'd so 234 available
Naked / Max HP: 480 / 660
Naked Saves pre-spellcraft: F 20/R 23/W 14
Full max AC w/o bardsong or expertise is about 60 I think, more realistically in the 50's
Naked AB (finesse): 35

MRFTW
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Re: This tank build

Post by MRFTW » Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:18 am

The build doesn't have:
- weapon focus
- blind fight
- improved critical
- epic weapon focus
- ESF discipline

Can I ask where you were testing?

TurningLeaf
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Re: This tank build

Post by TurningLeaf » Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:09 am

MRFTW wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:18 am
The build doesn't have:
- weapon focus
- blind fight
- improved critical
- epic weapon focus
- ESF discipline

Can I ask where you were testing?
Of those, ESF discipline has more than a minor amount of regret attached to it, given it's a tank build. It could go into the build, I think the least costly way is to shift down to 19 con. I'll give it some thought.

Tested on the PGCC.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: This tank build

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:32 am

MRFTW wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 4:18 am
The build doesn't have:
- weapon focus
- blind fight
- improved critical
- epic weapon focus
- ESF discipline

Can I ask where you were testing?
I think they're leaning on not getting hit (e-dodge) and it not hurting much when they do, so while giving up discipline isn't 'optimal' for a tank I can see how they can do without it on this (at least in PvE). I'd also say they don't need improved critical, but I do agree they want the weapon focus line and blind fight to secure the damage they need to make their exchanges favorable- damage also helps maintain aggro in PvE.

If someone is swinging a large weapon with a high crit multiplier in PvP, though, you're probably toast.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

AstralUniverse
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Re: This tank build

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am

I really dont understand this philosophy that "no need discipline if they cant pass my ac and my discipline wouldnt be much higher than my ac anyway so it's useless" because it's nwn we're talking about. Everyone from the most noob to the most skilled goes flat-footed for a second sometimes, when moving with WASD or otherwise using kits or other abilities/items who drop action queue, and this drops the character's AC, then discipline comes in HUGE even if your check barely matches your AC. Your AC score is quite almost entirely irrelevant when you decide how much discipline you need on a certain concept. For a tank, I would say Discipline is a huge necessity. You want to have as much as possible. You should have at least 33 ranks + 10 esf + 21 gear + 1 or 2 str, at the very least. combining that with an 'effective' +5 discipline from the fact you have Epic dodge and then probably fine and as good as you can get it without murdering your gear entirely.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


TurningLeaf
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Re: This tank build

Post by TurningLeaf » Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:05 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am
I really dont understand this philosophy that "no need discipline if they cant pass my ac and my discipline wouldnt be much higher than my ac anyway so it's useless" because it's nwn we're talking about. Everyone from the most noob to the most skilled goes flat-footed for a second sometimes, when moving with WASD or otherwise using kits or other abilities/items who drop action queue, and this drops the character's AC, then discipline comes in HUGE even if your check barely matches your AC. Your AC score is quite almost entirely irrelevant when you decide how much discipline you need on a certain concept. For a tank, I would say Discipline is a huge necessity. You want to have as much as possible. You should have at least 33 ranks + 10 esf + 21 gear + 1 or 2 str, at the very least. combining that with an 'effective' +5 discipline from the fact you have Epic dodge and then probably fine and as good as you can get it without murdering your gear entirely.
Doesn't Uncanny Dodge take care of the flat foot issue though?

I was thinking getting up to high 50's discipline all geared up was going to be enough for a high AC build, but I'm inferring it is not.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
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Re: This tank build

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:31 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:05 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am
I really dont understand this philosophy that "no need discipline if they cant pass my ac and my discipline wouldnt be much higher than my ac anyway so it's useless" because it's nwn we're talking about. Everyone from the most noob to the most skilled goes flat-footed for a second sometimes, when moving with WASD or otherwise using kits or other abilities/items who drop action queue, and this drops the character's AC, then discipline comes in HUGE even if your check barely matches your AC. Your AC score is quite almost entirely irrelevant when you decide how much discipline you need on a certain concept. For a tank, I would say Discipline is a huge necessity. You want to have as much as possible. You should have at least 33 ranks + 10 esf + 21 gear + 1 or 2 str, at the very least. combining that with an 'effective' +5 discipline from the fact you have Epic dodge and then probably fine and as good as you can get it without murdering your gear entirely.
Doesn't Uncanny Dodge take care of the flat foot issue though?

I was thinking getting up to high 50's discipline all geared up was going to be enough for a high AC build, but I'm inferring it is not.
I tinkered with the idea of a rogue-based defender with E-dodge & DR 18 shortly after they gave rogue all the snazzy bonuses, and then again after they lowered the con requirement for EDR. I would say that, fully buffed for most any dungeon run 70-74 AC is reasonably achievable for you (after improved expertise activation). There's some flex in this depending on your gear and how much you're willing to spend on buffs (or how many buffbots you make as friends- protip, clerics are better buffers than mages when it comes to AC tanks!)

At 50 discipline and 70 AC, anything that can hit you in the first place in is automatically going to knock you down if it tries. You still lose some ac to flat-footed with uncanny dodge, but not so much when you're going full AC 70+ tank that 50 discipline will make a significant difference. E-dodge will also nullify some of the KD's that can actually get past your AC.

A good way to think of it is like this - if you're getting hit at all as part of your plan in melee, you want your discipline to be no lower than 5 less than your AC - because the attack roll that's disarming you or knocking you down in the first place is at least as high, and you're relying on that + a d20 roll to stay on your feet. Anything less than this is basically a wasted skill point investment.

All that said- I'm willing to hazard a guess that with 600+ HP, 70+ AC, E-Dodge, AND DR18 +, that you can probably survive getting knocked down in most any PvE scenario provided you have adequate healing supplies (12 str, ouch). PvP on the other hand, is gonna suck.

If you're planning to PvP at all, you're going to want to squeeze out every last point of discipline you can get without hindering your AC or saves- you shouldn't have a skillpoint problem with that many rogue levels, it's just gonna be rough finding gear with all the things you want. Start saving and make friends with a basin-crafter IC, since I don't see any item creation feats on your build.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2724
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: This tank build

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:35 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:05 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am
I really dont understand this philosophy that "no need discipline if they cant pass my ac and my discipline wouldnt be much higher than my ac anyway so it's useless" because it's nwn we're talking about. Everyone from the most noob to the most skilled goes flat-footed for a second sometimes, when moving with WASD or otherwise using kits or other abilities/items who drop action queue, and this drops the character's AC, then discipline comes in HUGE even if your check barely matches your AC. Your AC score is quite almost entirely irrelevant when you decide how much discipline you need on a certain concept. For a tank, I would say Discipline is a huge necessity. You want to have as much as possible. You should have at least 33 ranks + 10 esf + 21 gear + 1 or 2 str, at the very least. combining that with an 'effective' +5 discipline from the fact you have Epic dodge and then probably fine and as good as you can get it without murdering your gear entirely.
Doesn't Uncanny Dodge take care of the flat foot issue though?

I was thinking getting up to high 50's discipline all geared up was going to be enough for a high AC build, but I'm inferring it is not.
High 50s with epic dodge is not terrible, but you have that weakness that EKD has movement speed reduction so you cannot really kite back from a weapon master drinking a true strike potion in your face, and you'll be rolling discipline against 70-80ish DC. If it wasnt EKD I would say high 50s is okay because that + having epic dodge and being able to space away from someone drinking true strike potion in your face is much more reliable. That's my two cents. Uncanny dodge gives you back your dex but you're still losing at least 10 dodge ac (tumble, haste) before looking at build-specific dodge bonuses. it's a lot.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


TurningLeaf
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Re: This tank build

Post by TurningLeaf » Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:22 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:35 pm
TurningLeaf wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:05 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:30 am
I really dont understand this philosophy that "no need discipline if they cant pass my ac and my discipline wouldnt be much higher than my ac anyway so it's useless" because it's nwn we're talking about. Everyone from the most noob to the most skilled goes flat-footed for a second sometimes, when moving with WASD or otherwise using kits or other abilities/items who drop action queue, and this drops the character's AC, then discipline comes in HUGE even if your check barely matches your AC. Your AC score is quite almost entirely irrelevant when you decide how much discipline you need on a certain concept. For a tank, I would say Discipline is a huge necessity. You want to have as much as possible. You should have at least 33 ranks + 10 esf + 21 gear + 1 or 2 str, at the very least. combining that with an 'effective' +5 discipline from the fact you have Epic dodge and then probably fine and as good as you can get it without murdering your gear entirely.
Doesn't Uncanny Dodge take care of the flat foot issue though?

I was thinking getting up to high 50's discipline all geared up was going to be enough for a high AC build, but I'm inferring it is not.
High 50s with epic dodge is not terrible, but you have that weakness that EKD has movement speed reduction so you cannot really kite back from a weapon master drinking a true strike potion in your face, and you'll be rolling discipline against 70-80ish DC. If it wasnt EKD I would say high 50s is okay because that + having epic dodge and being able to space away from someone drinking true strike potion in your face is much more reliable. That's my two cents. Uncanny dodge gives you back your dex but you're still losing at least 10 dodge ac (tumble, haste) before looking at build-specific dodge bonuses. it's a lot.
Ok I am a bit rusty with TS and it would not surprise me at all if Arelith tweaked the implementation. Is it first attack? Or first flurry? I forget. If it's first attack there I would think there is not nuch worry of being surprise TS/kd, due to epic dodge.

At any rate my new iteration of the build only has 19 con and 13 int, to fund a starting increase of 1 dex. That way I can still end up even number for prime stat dex but can convert great dex 1 to epic skill focus discipline.

Also I forgot to adjust the feat order for the fact that Armor Skin can't be taken on an EKD level.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2724
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: This tank build

Post by AstralUniverse » Mon Apr 11, 2022 6:01 pm

TurningLeaf wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 3:22 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 2:35 pm
TurningLeaf wrote:
Sat Apr 09, 2022 2:05 pm


Doesn't Uncanny Dodge take care of the flat foot issue though?

I was thinking getting up to high 50's discipline all geared up was going to be enough for a high AC build, but I'm inferring it is not.
High 50s with epic dodge is not terrible, but you have that weakness that EKD has movement speed reduction so you cannot really kite back from a weapon master drinking a true strike potion in your face, and you'll be rolling discipline against 70-80ish DC. If it wasnt EKD I would say high 50s is okay because that + having epic dodge and being able to space away from someone drinking true strike potion in your face is much more reliable. That's my two cents. Uncanny dodge gives you back your dex but you're still losing at least 10 dodge ac (tumble, haste) before looking at build-specific dodge bonuses. it's a lot.
Ok I am a bit rusty with TS and it would not surprise me at all if Arelith tweaked the implementation. Is it first attack? Or first flurry? I forget. If it's first attack there I would think there is not nuch worry of being surprise TS/kd, due to epic dodge.

At any rate my new iteration of the build only has 19 con and 13 int, to fund a starting increase of 1 dex. That way I can still end up even number for prime stat dex but can convert great dex 1 to epic skill focus discipline.

Also I forgot to adjust the feat order for the fact that Armor Skin can't be taken on an EKD level.
It's 9 seconds like in vanilla nwn.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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