Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

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Waldo52
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Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by Waldo52 » Tue May 03, 2022 5:58 pm

I knew they got nerfed, but DAMN.

Is there any way to play one decently at the moment?

An idea I had was 20 PM, 3 BG, 7 hexblade. I did some AC calculations assuming a base Charisma of 26 (38 warded):

Base 10

Adamantine full plate 11

Divine shield 14

Dex 1 (warded)

Barkskin scroll 3

Pale master ability 5

Tumble 3

Fiendish crown (4 versus good)

That cool tower shield I saw in the underdark one time (7 versus good)

Random deflection bonus item 1

Divine shield 14

Improved Expertise 10

Improved natural armor 2

That's 86 AC versus good aligned opponents. Would this be playable?

AstralUniverse
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 04, 2022 2:32 am

7 hex 3 bg 20 pm is a very bad idea for more reasons than I can count and your AC calculation is incorrect. I recommend to just try stuff on pgcc. It's a wonderful tool.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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ZombieDuck
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by ZombieDuck » Wed May 04, 2022 7:04 am

Melee Palemaster typically go for 16 PM levels and while the class is very defensive with its immunities and AC you should try to maximize AB to make it more playable. Having high AC without having enought AB or Attacks Per Round is not going to make the build playable beyond the 'niche' of guarding people from attacks, which the versions with decent AB will do almost as well.

What kind of playstyle are you looking for? PvE? PvP?
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Character: Typically some Orog in UD

MRFTW
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by MRFTW » Wed May 04, 2022 11:36 am

I think the builds were removed post-skillmageddon because they hadn't been updated.

The hex/wm build went for the same reasons, iirc.

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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed May 04, 2022 12:51 pm

The hot take over all is that we purge obsolete builds when updates make them bad or impossible to build in the same setup. A lot of 10 lvls PM builds were purged. Hexblade's feat progression was changed and some feat-tight builds were also purged. We will continue purging builds as updates destroy them and will do our best to make new up to date ones.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Waldo52
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by Waldo52 » Wed May 04, 2022 4:22 pm

ZombieDuck wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:04 am
Melee Palemaster typically go for 16 PM levels and while the class is very defensive with its immunities and AC you should try to maximize AB to make it more playable. Having high AC without having enought AB or Attacks Per Round is not going to make the build playable beyond the 'niche' of guarding people from attacks, which the versions with decent AB will do almost as well.

What kind of playstyle are you looking for? PvE? PvP?
I generally prioritize PVP, but this doesn't need to be super powerful.

I wanted to play someone that could basically heal his undead without dying, I liked the idea of an unkillable dude with EDR3, epic toughness and good summons. But if building with better offenses if a necessity I could go down that route.

epsi
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by epsi » Wed May 04, 2022 10:06 pm

Necromancer who summon more and more undeads, while he have extreme AC. Hey, i just stay here, you trying to hit me? This is idea for maximum possible AC build.

Last edited by epsi on Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu May 05, 2022 3:12 am

Waldo52 wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 4:22 pm
ZombieDuck wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:04 am
Melee Palemaster typically go for 16 PM levels and while the class is very defensive with its immunities and AC you should try to maximize AB to make it more playable. Having high AC without having enought AB or Attacks Per Round is not going to make the build playable beyond the 'niche' of guarding people from attacks, which the versions with decent AB will do almost as well.

What kind of playstyle are you looking for? PvE? PvP?
I generally prioritize PVP, but this doesn't need to be super powerful.

I wanted to play someone that could basically heal his undead without dying, I liked the idea of an unkillable dude with EDR3, epic toughness and good summons. But if building with better offenses if a necessity I could go down that route.
So you want to do 4 Bard 16 pm 10 X, where X can be dirgesinger, knight, more bard... bard/loremaster(?), zhent/bard... you get the idea.

4 bard 16 pm setup covers all your summoning and ginormous AC and crit immunity needs, so from there you simply want more buffs and debuffs for the summons. There's also this cool interaction that because Bard now has create greater undead in spellbook and the build has at least 11 bard CL and 20+ charisma, then you no longer need 65 lore to infinitely spam tier 6 undead CGU scrolls.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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ZombieDuck
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by ZombieDuck » Thu May 05, 2022 6:20 pm

I'm not sure when/if/in what state the Dirgesinger will be released, but 4 Bard/10 Dirgesinger/16 Palemaster is a build that I'd suggest you try on the PGCC.

- 70 AC
- 3xMummy Dust per rest(With one of them on CD If you spent a Dirgesinger feat on it) + Dracolich
- Hellball and Greater Ruin(With dmg blowback)
- Lasting Inspiration with ESF: Perform for situational immunities + immunity to death Magic from Dirge
- Dirge of Harvest being able to do decent magic dmg and heal the whole party
- Dirge of Damnation mostly for the breach, but also does small amount of dmg
And if you want to switch something out for:
- Dirge of Reprisal for situational spell block and to make summons deal more dmg by just being hit

I don't have any experience on the strenght of the Mummy Dust summons in PvP, but someone else can comment on how strong/weak unbuffed vampires are in PvP.
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Edens_Fall
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu May 05, 2022 11:13 pm

ZombieDuck wrote:
Wed May 04, 2022 7:04 am
Melee Palemaster typically go for 16 PM levels and while the class is very defensive with its immunities and AC you should try to maximize AB to make it more playable. Having high AC without having enought AB or Attacks Per Round is not going to make the build playable beyond the 'niche' of guarding people from attacks, which the versions with decent AB will do almost as well.

What kind of playstyle are you looking for? PvE? PvP?
What AB is needed for PvE and what for PvP?

Always wondered as I've seen some SD builds with 38 AB and some AA with 57.

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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by Ork » Fri May 06, 2022 4:58 am

Well, I'll say this: viable melee builds end up in the high 40s or low 50s. Exceptional ones end up mid 50s. PvE you can wittle away most things with enough determination and healing supplies.

AstralUniverse
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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri May 06, 2022 5:23 pm

In my opinion (and I dare say as the one who purged these PM builds from the wiki) melee builds with less than 48 ab should not belong in the wiki, or have a big "PvE build" sign on them, with the exception of rogue builds who can have as low as 44 comfortably because stealther who needs to flat-foot in pvp. But the reason the PM builds were purged actually have little to do with that. They were just out-dated. built to have crit immunity with 10 pm lvls, or built to have wm levels and are no longer functional, or are simply out-shined by conduit summoners unless they heavily buff the undeads with buffs which are unavailable to conduit summoners, so the class took a 180 degrees turn from melees back to wizards and now also bards. If someone is interested in pve only and not about pvp at all, like many these days, then they *too* shouldnt bother with melee pms, because the available buff/debuff summoner focused builds will also perform better in pve.
Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Pale Master Builds Removed from Wiki

Post by ZombieDuck » Sat May 07, 2022 12:21 am

As noted here before AB in PvP is expected to be around 50, but there's lot of situations where that's plenty or not enought at all.

Having Strenght build with full Base Attack usually ends up with:
25 BA + 15 Str + 3 Weapon Focuses + 4 Weapon = 47 at lowest.

While that is decent AB many other classes can buff themselfs to similar position, but the spell True Strike gives +20 AB which automatically caps the bonus to AB. Now the example here would get +16 AB becouse even weapon attack(+4 weapon in this example) bonuses count towards the cap while buffers often gain only ~+5 AB from the spell, becouse they often have so many attack bonus boosters. Now the difference between (47+16)63 and (47+5)52 is huge in PvP where you're often facing 60+ Discipline/AC builds.

So what AB is needed for PvP? Depends on who you're fighting and what tricks can you pull off, with some of the strong ones being: True Strike(+20 AB until cap is hit), Word of Faith(Blindness), Hex(-6 AB/AC at 30) and Flat-footing(Making people lose their Dodge AC, Tumble AC and Dex(If they don't have Uncanny Dodge).

As for PvE, ~45 works well for most things, ignoring some epic bosses. You should always have your tricks for dealing with single strong units like: True Strike potions, Gonne, Darkness(Useful for flat-footing things and 'Blinding' them), Summons(Gate being a good example) and Traps.

As for using melee PM in PvP. The AC/Immunities generally do not cover for the lack of AB/Dmg and you'd be looking at low 40s AB with 60s AC+Improved Expertise, meaning good AC with no good way to deal dmg in PvP.
Forever a duckling.
Character: Typically some Orog in UD

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