Cavalier & Spirited Charge

[God_In_Action]

Is anyone able to better explain the mechanics of Cavalier? I am left baffled by the wikipedia and cannot work out every factor which can maximise the damage of spirited charge.

On top of this, a few written points seem to be out of date or no longer applicable.

1) The news page article (https://nwnarelith.com/index.php/news-l ... ew-classes) differs from the wiki article and offers some info not at all touched on in the wiki article.
2) The Cavalier spreadsheet mentions a 'Bullrush' mechanic but there is no description of this in the wiki article.

[Edens_Fall]

Hello!

The link you reference is from its first announcement. Things have been adjusted since then to balance the class.

We try to keep the wiki update, but can miss things time to time. If you would like to share what you think is incorrect or poorly explained I'd be happy to look it over for correction.

[God_In_Action]

The section on the wiki article doesn't actually include any sort of explanation of the mechanics of Spirited Charge. It states the following:


"Instant action. See Cavalier Overhaul Spreadsheet v3.2 (Latest) for damage details.
Cavalry Weapons: Same as the weapons listed in Cavalier Weapon Proficiency
Size Matters: Spirited Charge can only be used by weapons that are the same size as or larger than the Cavalier. The exceptions are Light Flail and Spear.
Mounted Bonus: A cavalier can charge (for 12 seconds) with any weapons and unleash devastating blows. Cavalry weapons get better damage multipliers as well as special debuffs. Keen (Item Property), Improved Critical (Feat), Increased Multiplier (Weapon Master), and Ki Critical (Weapon Master) will further boost the effectiveness of Spirited Charge. The Weapon Master feats will only apply to Cavalry Weapons.
On-foot Bonus: This ability may be activated while not mounted. When used in this fashion the Cavalier will receive a small attack bonus and +40% movement speed for 12 seconds (2 rounds) in lieu of the mounted benefits.
Momentum: The longer a cavalier charges, the stronger the Spirited Charge. If Spirited Charge is proc'd as soon as it is activated, it deals 30% of charge damage. The bonus damage is increased up to a maximum of 60% over 2 seconds.
Movement Speed Slowed if target is a player character:
Slow applies if the target is the same size as the cavalier and 2Handing a weapon that isn't Magic Staff
Slow applies if the target is larger than the cavalier and wielding a melee weapon that isn't Magic Staff
Slow duration is 3 seconds"

The questions I wonder are:

Is there any AB bonus?
Are there factors (i.e. Keen, weapon size, weapon type, Knockdown, on hit effects) which further increase damage, or is the damage bonus a simple % increase from base damage?
Does all base damage go into increasing the Spirited Charge damage? (i.e. do damage bonuses from other sources, like other class abilities, or essences, or spells also get proportionally increased?)
Does it work with all weapons, or only Cavalry Weapons?
Do Cavalry Weapons get better damage than a roughly equivalent weapon? (e.g. Cavalary sword vs rapier)
What is the maximum damage?
What does the text which appeared when you use the ability mean? (i.e. it displays Crit Multiplier, Str Multiplier, Damage before recalculation, and Damage after recalculation)

Edit: I've tried a few builds out on PGCC, including a Ftr7/Wm13/Cav10 str based nodachai, but I wasn't getting any higher damage from a spirited charge than just standing and fighting. The critical hit damage was extremely similar to a spirited charge hit, which begs the question of what's the point of a Cavalier compared to a WM? Am I missing something?

[Edens_Fall]

Stuff

I went through all the Update notes and added what I could locate to the Wiki. Let me know if the added information answers your questions!

[Tempedius]

So there is an ab bonus, you drop in apr, you can benefit from keen now, cav weapons get a bonus effect. I'd have to look at max damage but it's been nerfed a few times now. Having played a few cavs and a number of weapon masters I'd tell you to not bother with cav in its current state. The class has been taken out back and beat enough times that without some help it's not getting back up.

[God_In_Action]

Stuff

I went through all the Update notes and added what I could locate to the Wiki. Let me know if the added information answers your questions!

Thank you! The wiki page is massively improved and we can now begin to make sense of the class.

And from playing around in the PGCC I agree with Tempedius that what I thought would be a cool class to play in the future is sadly underwhelming, in the sense that its core mechanic (charging) is simply inferior to standing and fighting. You lose so many attacks by charging, or by leaving the combat in order to gain distance and time to charge back in, that you end up doing less damage than by just staying in combat. And all the time enemies are flinging shots or spells at you.

[Lacki]

Stuff

I went through all the Update notes and added what I could locate to the Wiki. Let me know if the added information answers your questions!

Thank you! The wiki page is massively improved and we can now begin to make sense of the class.

And from playing around in the PGCC I agree with Tempedius that what I thought would be a cool class to play in the future is sadly underwhelming, in the sense that its core mechanic (charging) is simply inferior to standing and fighting. You lose so many attacks by charging, or by leaving the combat in order to gain distance and time to charge back in, that you end up doing less damage than by just staying in combat. And all the time enemies are flinging shots or spells at you.

I'm a new player, so take what I say about it with a grain of salt. In my limited experience, the charge can be used as an opener in combat to kill off a mage and then - if you can last thirty seconds for it to recharge- as a stun against hard-to-hit opponents or important ones. In particular, it's great against things with huge Dex and Dodge AC, because the stun makes them flat-footed. The d12 HD also helps you survive a bit longer than you normally would.

However, I find it extremely difficult to solo content aside from using Spirited Charge to kite enemies, get in a single massive hit, and then retreating. Against mages and things where my mobility is less useful (such as archers), that strategy fails and I get melted down very easily. The class feels very weak in comparison to an average cleric or something like that. That being said, I don't have Expertise or Improved Expertise, and those feats seem basically mandatory in order to get anything done as a melee fighter.

[Edens_Fall]

I'll say from my own playing, that Knight and Cav go very well together.

[Kenji]

Stuff

I went through all the Update notes and added what I could locate to the Wiki. Let me know if the added information answers your questions!

Thank you! The wiki page is massively improved and we can now begin to make sense of the class.

And from playing around in the PGCC I agree with Tempedius that what I thought would be a cool class to play in the future is sadly underwhelming, in the sense that its core mechanic (charging) is simply inferior to standing and fighting. You lose so many attacks by charging, or by leaving the combat in order to gain distance and time to charge back in, that you end up doing less damage than by just staying in combat. And all the time enemies are flinging shots or spells at you.

If your cavalier is still losing APR while charging, report that to the bug forums. They should no longer lose attacks upon activating spirited charge.

That change was made as of May 31st noted in this announcement.

[God_In_Action]

If your cavalier is still losing APR while charging, report that to the bug forums. They should no longer lose attacks upon activating spirited charge.

That change was made as of May 31st noted in this announcement.

I went back to the PGCC and confirm I don't lose any APR in the same round as using the Spirited Charge.

Now I'm just trying to work out how Cavalier is meant to be used. For example, if the combat lasts long enough for Spirited Charge to become available again then in that case you need to run from the combat to maximise damage through the Momentum mechanic - but you would do far more damage by just staying in combat due to the lost attacks. I guess Spirited Charge is best as a sort of once per combat sort of thing? Apart from that, you're just a melee combatant but on a horse, right?

[Kenji]

The cavalier will consistently achieve higher damage output by standing toe to toe to fight a foe. Kiting around to maximize spirited charge damage is only best done at the beginning of the combat to initiate the chase. Other potential scenarios where a cavalier would have higher spirited charge damage output than insta proc would usually be the following:

• Kiting: the cavalier can't outtrade the melee opponent. Therefore he uses the guerilla tactics of hit and run to maximize the charge damage and its CC and then runs away.
• Chasing: the target is an archer or a caster on the run. Spirited Charge will provide a burst of extra damage every time the cav catches up to a target.