Skill Focus Post-Update

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Waldo52
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Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Waldo52 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Now that non epic skill focus grants +5, I'm wondering if it's more widely used.

I remember it being seen as kind of a waste for most characters in the past, and I'd like to know if the build meta has budged.


+5 discipline can be a godsend for dexterity based melee builds who basically needed to hunt for dedicated discipline gear at the expense of everything else.

My friend took SF disguise and has never been revealed.

Reaching *forgot the number* Lore and using 9th level summoning spells just got easier.

Are people having fun with skill focus now?

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by xf1313 » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:21 pm

+5?why do I remember it being +10? When was the update?

Right...I see, the answer from my side is...no, not really. It helps when SF is required for certain class, like knight or lm. But I would not even consider it because most build need other more important feats. Every feat matters if I want to survive the pve.

Unless I want to play pure fighter or cavalier/DC, classes that have too many feat to burn. It would be nice to build some skills
Last edited by xf1313 on Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Itikar » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:32 pm

+10 is epic skill focus.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:05 pm

I think feats like Stealthy, Artist and Alertness could be bumped up a little bit now to retain their usefulness, but I don't think there's a setting for those?

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:28 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:05 pm
I think feats like Stealthy, Artist and Alertness could be bumped up a little bit now to retain their usefulness, ...
Not necessarily. Yes they are less useful but some of them unlock classes. Artist can be buffed tho.
Waldo52 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:06 pm
Now that non epic skill focus grants +5, I'm wondering if it's more widely used.

...

Are people having fun with skill focus now?
They're more used, but not by a huge difference. Builds who could afford them already went sf discipline, especially if dex based, now they were simply buffed by +2 discipline across all of these builds.

There are few niche cases where a strength based build has really tight epic feat selection and now can take sf discipline and 'get away' with an epic feat, because STR based with sf discipline can meet the required benchmarks.
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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by MRFTW » Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:24 am

I've started swapping ESF: Discipline for SF: discipline quite often.

It's very, very nice on a deep EKD, who are already struggling with epic feat selection due to needing EWF, prowess and EDR 3 despite only having 4 epic feats to choose from. Gods be blessed that they get Armour Skin at 15.

I think dexers will stick with ESF, although I can see a strong case for taking both ESF and SF Discipline due to large creatures.
AstralUniverse wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:28 pm
Artist can be buffed tho.
The perform part could be, but spot levels can already become pretty ludicrous, especially since spotbots got a free +2 from the SF:spot they were already taking.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:11 am

I do the above also. Some strength builds can dump ESF: Discipline for SF. It frees up a feat for something like Epic Prowess, Great STR, etc.

Knight has also become more attractive. Doesn't feel like I'm dumping a feat.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:37 am

Good Character wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:11 am
I do the above also. Some strength builds can dump ESF: Discipline for SF. It frees up a feat for something like Epic Prowess, Great STR, etc.

Knight has also become more attractive. Doesn't feel like I'm dumping a feat.
I want to do rogue 25/Knight 5 so badly. It would probably be terrible, but this I do feel like the feat tax wouldn't be as bad now.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:51 am

What builds can even benefit from buffing these? I don't know of any that could fit these feats without sacrificing something essential.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:45 am

MRFTW wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:24 am
The perform part could be, but spot levels can already become pretty ludicrous, especially since spotbots got a free +2 from the SF:spot they were already taking.
Artist is a level 1 only feat, meant solely for bards wanting to reach 100 perform. This is irrelevant. No one in their right mind should ever take this feat because you cannot -relevel out of it and it's basically just +2 spot because a bard with sf and esf perform will reach 70 almost without gear anyway. And I reiterate that it's a level 1 only feat, which means it's x50 worse than a normal feat in that alone.
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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:08 am

With feats like Alertness and Stealthy, rather than seeing a number increase, it would be nice if something additional was gained instead.

Maybe if Alertness gave Keen, and Stealthy reduced the cooldown on Hide in Plain Sight, in addition to what they already provide today?


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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:05 am

They seem redundant as heck. We could just remove them, so players don't accidentally pick them?

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:54 am

Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:05 am
They seem redundant as heck. We could just remove them, so players don't accidentally pick them?
At least alertness is also used as a class requirement (harper) so maybe that one should stay. In stealthy's case, it is also a way to push your stealth even moar if you're already taking sf: hide/move. I dont think we should remove feats just so they arent a trap (unfortunately there are some exceptions, like circle kick), but we should instead give them something, or use them like alertness which is a requirement for something that's definitely worth burning a feat on something that is mostly useless on it's own.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am

I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.

If stealthy IS buffed, I think it could make for a nice free feat given at certain rogue levels. Otherwise I just don't see what people are going to drop to cram it in there.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Kalopsia » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:02 am

They make for nice prestige class prerequisites. I think giving them some thematic bonus rather than just increasing the numbers would be neat.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by MRFTW » Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:05 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:45 am
MRFTW wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:24 am
The perform part could be, but spot levels can already become pretty ludicrous, especially since spotbots got a free +2 from the SF:spot they were already taking.
Artist is a level 1 only feat, meant solely for bards wanting to reach 100 perform. This is irrelevant. No one in their right mind should ever take this feat because you cannot -relevel out of it and it's basically just +2 spot because a bard with sf and esf perform will reach 70 almost without gear anyway. And I reiterate that it's a level 1 only feat, which means it's x50 worse than a normal feat in that alone.
I agree it's meant solely for bards pumping perform. I was trying to avoid collaterally buffing spotbots, who have been getting passively better and easier to level update-by-update. The SF update already skewed it 2 points in their favour unless the sneaker has taken SF:hide, which I don't think is that common?

I used to play one as a grandfathered aasimar, a wisdom-based warlock/LM (fathomless/star). I sat at 125 spot and 110 sail, I'd hit 126/109 if I played them now (-2 WIS from losing gift, +2 spot from SF). Literal zero impact in a PvE scenario, but it inficasts invis + haste, gets Hide/MS in the mid-80s, and the warlock spellbook has some incredible utility spells, which you might as well take since its DCs are garbage. Avariel have it even better, because they can take artist to hit 126 and get keen senses on top, but that wasn't an option when I made mine due to lack of an award.

It's a weird build to play, but it's really good at a few specific things, one of which is smashing disguises. Nothing scatters disguise users like seeing the notification that their godsave was blown. I used to joke with whichever melee I was grouping with that I could do "Everything except damage".

A bad faith actor with a lot of spot can wreak havoc on a lot of narratives. It doesn't have to be common to be relevant.

-

I was thinking about this topic a bit at work last night and I'm interested to know if it's made life easier for QB players, too. Theoretically they can use the extra +2 to restat into more CON/STR, which will be nice QoL for them. I've never played a dedicated QB so I can't comment.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Good Character » Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:48 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:37 am
I want to do rogue 25/Knight 5 so badly. It would probably be terrible, but this I do feel like the feat tax wouldn't be as bad now.
It doesn't synergize very well, sadly. Knight can be an awkward class to make work because of its CHA-oriented skills.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Waldo52 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:18 pm

Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am
I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.
Rogues are a feat intensive martial class that doesn't really get any bonus combat feats. Yes, we get really cool ROGUE feats, but when 3 two weapon fighting feats is the norm and the class doesn't assist you with anything that can be used on your fighting style or staples like blind fight/weapon focus/etc., you're really struggling.

😢

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Hazard » Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:01 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am
I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.
Rogues are a feat intensive martial class that doesn't really get any bonus combat feats. Yes, we get really cool ROGUE feats, but when 3 two weapon fighting feats is the norm and the class doesn't assist you with anything that can be used on your fighting style or staples like blind fight/weapon focus/etc., you're really struggling.

😢
truth

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by xf1313 » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:04 pm

Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am
I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.
Rogues are a feat intensive martial class that doesn't really get any bonus combat feats. Yes, we get really cool ROGUE feats, but when 3 two weapon fighting feats is the norm and the class doesn't assist you with anything that can be used on your fighting style or staples like blind fight/weapon focus/etc., you're really struggling.

😢
I have thought really hard, arguing that maybe, I can afford to drop 2 weapon feats.... 3 extra can free up many options
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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:20 pm

Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am
I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.

If stealthy IS buffed, I think it could make for a nice free feat given at certain rogue levels. Otherwise I just don't see what people are going to drop to cram it in there.
You can fit in Stealthy on a pure monk, after you've already got all of the mandatory combat feats, toughness, sf discipline and sf stealth. You kinda choose between great fortitude and stealthy on that feat slot.
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I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:22 am

We really need to stop raising the hide/ms skill level.

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Evianna » Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:29 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:22 am
We really need to stop raising the hide/ms skill level.
unfortunately, bards exist
you may remember me from such idiot characters as:

mystery

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raimie mistmantle - sold into slavery
yukana ("malyss") - in a castle with her elf in kozakura

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Hazard » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:56 am

Evianna wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:29 am
Ork wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:22 am
We really need to stop raising the hide/ms skill level.
unfortunately, bards exist
^

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Re: Skill Focus Post-Update

Post by Waldo52 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:58 am

xf1313 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:04 pm
Waldo52 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:18 pm
Hazard wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:34 am
I only mostly have experience playing stealthers as pure rogues, deep rogues, and various mixes of shadow-dancer, and I can't think of a single one of the builds I've played with that could afford to drop anything at all unless maybe some as a human only.
Rogues are a feat intensive martial class that doesn't really get any bonus combat feats. Yes, we get really cool ROGUE feats, but when 3 two weapon fighting feats is the norm and the class doesn't assist you with anything that can be used on your fighting style or staples like blind fight/weapon focus/etc., you're really struggling.

😢
I have thought really hard, arguing that maybe, I can afford to drop 2 weapon feats.... 3 extra can free up many options
Somewhere on these boards I'll bet there's a guy who has leveled fifteen rogues to 30, all of which without two weapon fighting or even rapid shot. I'd like to hear from him. I'm not a buildsmith and I'm waiting for one to chime in, but as far as I can tell there are no other options, unless you're going divine. Even in this case you're equally feat starved, stark raving MAD and a gearing nightmare.

It's insanely difficult to argue for anything except TWF or maybe PBS/Rapid shot. Even if you want to shield or parry you're a moron for doing it on a standard deep rogue and not a monk, weirdo divine rogue or swashbuckler. Sword and board doesn't work on a character with good but not stellar AC and sad HP. The whole one big weapon angle doesn't work either because of the way dex based sneak attack characters rely on sheer volume of attacks.

Unless you're talking about some kind of flavor build, we rely on TWF. The feat economy is abysmal, especially for a class that devs are admitting is underpowered. I usually like to build semi-optimal characters, sabotaging the spreadsheet by a feat or two for the sake of being myself. But unless you're a human with fighter levels there's just no wiggle room whatsoever.

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