Dirty Fighting/ Knockdown comparison

[Waldo52]

First and foremost: thank you dev team!

The new version of dirty fighting is a lot of fun, and breathes new life into martial characters. This is a video game after all, and having more buttons to push/things to do as a non caster is always a welcome improvement to the game.

There are some real mechanical positives here. The fact that these techniques target saves and don't seem to have any relationship with discipline is a big deal. There are so many characters running around with 70+ discipline, and as a rogue player (or anyone) it's frustrating having to deal with this problem.

The DCs do seem a little low at 10+1/3 character level +1/6 relevant skill, and this is also a bit of a problem.

Assuming you have 90 bluff/sleight/intimidate/ whatever you're dealing with a DC of 35 at level 30. If you're playing some weird meme build (expert pickpocket, master of disguise, etc.) you can get this number significantly higher.

I'm a bit concerned this may be a little weak for all but the most dedicated skill builds, especially at -4 to hit, but I don't have the experience to confirm it. Maybe it was the dev team's intention to give alternative and traditionally weaker skill based characters something to do in combat?

I'll stop my babbling. I'm just curious to see what everyone's thinking about dirty fighting so far. Will it be the new knockdown? Are you taking both feats?

[Tarkus the dog]

if you're a dex based stealther use dirty fighting from stealth pretty much

[Sandrow]

Don't worry, they run with 35+ save, too.

[WanderingPoet]

Keep in mind this save is your choice against one of three saves, and bypasses spellcraft and other save vs spells.

Look at your own character, what is your lowest save? With uni saves you can definitely get it higher, but other than super optimized 5% characters most will have one save in the 20s. If they have 25 in a save then you have a 50% chance to afflict them.

Which is pretty strong! Especially for an instant use ability that you can repeat every 9 seconds. That's equivalent of a caster with maxed stat using a level 4/5 spell, which they have limited use of. If the enemy has spellcraft then that can be the equivalent of a level 9 spell.

I'd say this is quite a bit more powerful than Knockdown, because knockdown has one counter, this has three. So unless they're buffing all their saves to 35+, you have a chance to afflict them, where if they have 70+ disciline then you have basically 0% chance.

[TurningLeaf]

I noticed the other day that Dirty Fighting was included as a selectable Rogue bonus feat.

[Nurel]

Don't worry, they run with 35+ save, too.

But, ain't dirty fighting subject to immunities like Freedom, Mind Blank (Clarity) and such?