Rogue Grenade PvP Questions

[magistrasa]

I hate the way rogue grenades are implemented on the server so I haven't really used them out of principle ever since they were introduced. But, even though my opinion is good and correct, I have decided to take the high road and be the better person - specifically, be the person who is better than all the other people I don't like, and proving that betterness via ruthless murder. Alas, for reasons beyond my understanding, I somehow don't have any friends, and so I don't have to test grenadier tactics against. I'm not in the business of making friends, so I thought I'd ask my future enemies for some insight and advice about how to implement rogue grenades into my combat strategies. Here are some starter questions to get conversation going:

• How do you use rogue grenades?
• Which grenades aren't really worth using?
• In what niche cases should one be used over another?
• What are some tips and tactics to keep in mind when using grenades in PvP?
• Have you noticed any weird or unexpected mechanical interactions involving rogue grenades?
• General Rogue tactical advice is also welcome, it's been about 3-4 years worth of updates since I tried one and I expect their lives are much more annoying post-Loremageddon.

I'm not interested in anything anyone has to say about PvE because PvE is boring and I only feel alive when I'm inflicting death and destruction and despair upon another living, feeling player. Thank you.

[Gracklstugh]

To be honest, grenades won't win you any 1vs1 engagement against someone that know what they are doing. They got a bit better when they got readjusted to ignore spellcraft but overall, not enough to make a huge impact vs any decent build. This being said, grenades can have some utility in mass PvP where it's all chaos, just make sure you have a place to corner sneak as soon as the angry WM charges at you.

Smoke Screen - useless, it's centered around yourself.
Exploding Holy Flask - top tier, one of your best tools to deal some damage against Pale Masters and their undead that get spell resistance to WoF.
Dust of Silence - one of the few sources to increase your MS, lasts a decent amount of time, buffs all the ppl around you.
Disjunction Shard - no better than a breach wand BUT it has an AOE effect, two breaches regardless of save or not. Can have some use in Mass PvP.
Mirror Dust - I never understood the use of this, is centered around your location and you also gain a lingering debuff to AB and a lingering Miss Chance debuff. If this would not affect you too, I could see some uses but it's bad as it is.
Beholder Dust - again, centered around your location = BAD
Paralytic Caltrops - Countered by FoM - can have some limited uses in Mass PvP where ppl get their wards removed by Mords and such
Flashbang - Countered by mind warding - can have some limited uses in Mass PvP where ppl get their wards removed by Mords and such

Advice on how to use: I would stay away from using them during a face to face/ direct confrontation but if you have a strong front line to distract the attention from you, grenades can have a decent support role.

[Eyeliner]

I pretty much end up using choking power and exploding flasks in PVE (where they are both great) and don't bother with them in pvp. Like it's rare it's a situation where you're not better off just straight up attacking or if you're being strategic, laying a trap.

Side note though for grenade testing.. Last I remember you're on the same timer as IG when you try to buy them on the PGCC. I wish that timer was removed on the PGCC or they were made available in the -shop command (under ranged weapons maybe).

[Two for the Rogues]

Rogue Grenades are some of the coolest mechanics the class has ever been given. I'd broadly categorize them in three separate categories: utility, dispel, CC. It's worth noting that NONE of these are party friendly, but that doesn't matter given the OP has stipulated that they're a friendless misanthrope.

The only dispel being disjunction shards, they're a logical place to start. 2 breaches +1 on a reflex check. This is super useful to engage with because it sets the stage for the rest of the fight. High reflex? Now you know not to bother with any of the conditional stuff, and you found that out while taking a useful offensive action. It's worth noting that if you're only fighting one guy, then you'll likely find yourself breach-booking him for 4 guaranteed breaches, meaning this is a more situational AoE type beat. Do not underestimate the disjunction shards > flashbang combo against Dexterity: Low characters, and realize that there are situations where knowing a man's reflex is more useful than breachmaxxing.

The utility bombs are, in rough order of usefulness, Dust of Silence (10 move silently for turns/lvl), Mirror Dust (-5 AB 50% miss chance for 1m in an aoe), and Beholder Dust (25% SF, -10 concentration for 1m). Smoke Screens fall here, but in the last two rouges I've played (one melee, one mostly ranged) I haven't found a use for them yet. Holy flasks are essentially jars of concentrated rogue tears, which you throw at things that are immune to sneak attacks as you run away from them.

The CC bombs are flashbangs, caltrops, choking powder, and acid bombs. Acid bombs are the most useful: flashbangs and caltrops are great situational tools if you know you're fighting a lousy reflex build. I suggest using caltrops if you're alone, but flashbangs if there is anyone on your stack that can exploit the -2 uni. Choking powder is a meme because you can quaff a clarity out of the daze, but if someone fails the fortitude then that's salient information.

Beholder dust is the best grenade for high-value picks. -10 concentration means a mage will be susceptible to having their casts broken, and 25 spell failure is absolutely crippling. Due to the unthrowable nature of it, this one is best used right before you strike.

Mirror Dust is the best disengage option in the game. 50% miss chance is an incredible stat because there's no efficient way to remove it, and the AoE -5 AB is essentially a free expertise atop your expertise.

Grenades and traps have incredible synergy. People will make the mistake of chasing you early in your character's arc: these two mechanics enable you to illustrate why that is a bad idea.

[Waldo52]

I don't agree that grenades necessarily suck for PvP. Flashbangs can do amazing things. Sure, there are plenty of melee builds with great reflex saves. But there are plenty without. Stunning a strength based opponent can set them up for a crippling strike death spiral where they become less and less accurate and effective. I've seen it happen before: Big dumb hunk gets stunned hit with a couple sneak attacks. He hits you for a good chunk of your life but gets flashbanged. Another few sneak attacks land and crippling strike penalties start mounting.

When combined with things like anti-strength poisons and well placed traps this can do horrible, horrible things to strength builds. Sure, a really optimized barbarian or fighter weapon master will probably kill you before your plan goes anywhere but I've seen horrible things happen to more well rounded strength builds.

[msterswrdsmn]

One more grenade people haven't mentioned yet; Tanglefoot bags

These are incredibly useful against low-reflex enemies. They only work against a single target, so they're best used in a one-on-one situation. That said, anything failing their save is automatically held in place and flat-footed, meaning any attack on them is a free sneak attack.

[Waldo52]

One more grenade people haven't mentioned yet; Tanglefoot bags

These are incredibly useful against low-reflex enemies. They only work against a single target, so they're best used in a one-on-one situation. That said, anything failing their save is automatically held in place and flat-footed, meaning any attack on them is a free sneak attack.

Thank you, I had no idea.

I apologize in advance to anyone planning on making a good aligned character on Skal this week.

[msterswrdsmn]

Now that i've gotten a bit of time to actually read the op's questions...

How do you use rogue grenades?

Depends on the grenade, but usually as an opening move against a mob to weaken them or stun them. This pairs well with gruesome technique, as even if they make their save against the initial grenade effect, gruesome techniques fear effect kicks in and potentially hits enemies with a -10 save penalty. That bandit made it's fort save against your choking powder? I guarentee he won't do that against this second round!

Which grenades aren't really worth using?

Offhand? Fire bombs weren't terribly useful, but I might have been using them wrong. Smoke grenades gave some early level concealment against ranged mobs, but were pretty useless compared to a simple imp. invis wand. Thunderstones are meh, as deafening creatures is really only useful against mages, which are usually weak to choking powder. I've had zero reason to test holy water against undead, as exploding holy flasks exist. Alchemist fire/acid flasks might have had some use early on, but as anyone whose tried playing an evoker can tell you; crowd control is far more important than damage.

I don't have a lot of experience with the higher-end specialty grenades, so i can't comment on those.

In what niche cases should one be used over another?

Depends entirely on what you're fighting. Giants almost always going to ignore choking powder, but almost always fail against tanglefoot bags. Treat grenades like traps; don't rely on just one type. Use whats appropriate to attack an opponents weak points.

That said, choking powder, tanglefoot bags, and exploding holy flasks are by far the ones i've used the most so far, and its not even close.

Have you noticed any weird or unexpected mechanical interactions involving rogue grenades?

Aside from the aforementioned combination with gruesome technique? Grenades are affected by spell resistance. This will make it much less effective to use them in the underdark, were everything has spell resistance. I have no idea how grenades scale to overcome spell resistance.

General Rogue tactical advice is also welcome, it's been about 3-4 years worth of updates since I tried one and I expect their lives are much more annoying post-Loremageddon.

Grenades are great, but don't rely on them. If your only trick is to drop a choking powder grenade and spam sneak attacks, you will absolutely get wrecked the second that doesn't work. Playing a solo rogue in pve or pvp requires a -lot- of in-game knowledge. Proper positioning, equipment, and aggro control are needed. As a rogue, you're always going to have to figure out how to put yourself in an advantageous position. OR. Figure out a way to strip/limit your opponents strengths or advantages.

[Cagus]

... They got a bit better when they got readjusted to ignore spellcraft but overall...

Just a little correction here. They were not readjusted, it was a bug, which took 5 years to fix.
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