Stealing of player shelves, a discussion

[DM Janitor]

It just means you should avoid depopulating someone's bookshelves of their contents or taking the whole shelf.

If you want to steal something, take one thing.

You do not have to (permanently) steal an entire shelf or entire message board to take one thing.

A notebook, while similar to both a message board and a bookshelf, however is an individual item that can be copied. If it has an unused faction tag you can make that faction to get access to it. If is active, you can try to infiltrate that faction. If you want to steal someone's journal from a shelf I can kind of understand your question - but I would treat a notebook like a single item for the sake of the broad ruling.


Which is-

Don't grief people's bookshelves by depopulating them or taking their entire personal library just because you can. If something is so important on it that you want to steal it - its important enough for you to take the effort to do it right and tell a story by doing so.

So 1 notebook = same as any other book.

[-XXX-]

What about containers (book/gem/hunting/mining/herbalist bags, jewelry boxes, keyrings, etc.) stored in a quarter chest?

[AstralUniverse]

If that's a new rule being announced that fixtures with items inside them cannot be stolen, but one item from them can be, then I'm in favor of the rule, but I think it would make no sense to extend this policy to bag/box/pouch because it would mean that to steal an item from the bag, you would need to break the rule in order to follow the rule after. I can only advice people to put their expensive stuff in a storage settlement and leave the quarter chests for resources and low value items.

[DM Janitor]

What about containers (book/gem/hunting/mining bags, jewelry boxes, keyrings, et.) stored in a quarter chest?

Already addressed. We can't feasibly (at this time) evaluate when people are taking stuff out of them. So for now they count as one object (it sucks, I know). You should always report any situation you feel unsure of however for us to arbitrate.

Bookshelves, however, are fixtures and the ones in someone's home are a lot easier for us to evaluate individually. Books and bookshelf theft are not very common.

[-XXX-]

OK, thx for the clarification.

[Curve]

I just want to be clear, so I don't unintentionally do something wrong. I am having a hard time understanding. And please forgive my specific questions they are in the spirit of understanding.

You do not have to (permanently) steal an entire shelf or entire message board to take one thing.

Are you saying that a bookshelf/message board can be temporarily stolen in order to change the [tag]? And if so, do you mean just picking it up in the quarter and changing the [tag] there (in an enchantment basin you either carry around or one that happens to be in the quarter) or do you mean taking the fixture elsewhere, changing the [tag] and then returning it to the quarter after taking the one stolen item?

Don't grief people's bookshelves by depopulating them or taking their entire personal library just because you can. If something is so important on it that you want to steal it - its important enough for you to take the effort to do it right and tell a story by doing so.

This sems to nullify the previous statement and suggest that the only way to steal from a [tagged] message board/shelf is to either steal from a faction that is bunk, or to (and this seems overly complicated) infiltrate the IC faction in order to be placed in the OOC faction. While this in and of itself is a monumental task considering how careful players can be about allowing characters into their faction, it also ignores [tags] that are just a character's name- something that is far more common.

[Void]

In all honesty it’s disappointing rules would even need to be created for stuff like this. It’s simply an awful experience to have all your effort and books wiped (often without any RP).

While I see your point it is sort of part of the game. As items that are not on your body aren't safe.

At least this is not on survival game level where it is common for you to drop everything you carry.

The thing about shelves probably requires a DM clarification, however. Although it looks like a clarification has been posted already and taking the whole shelf is officially not allowed.

[DM Janitor]

It isn't super specific in the same way many of our rules are not super specific. The be nice rule is your guide so always look to that first - if your theft doesn't really have a narrative purpose and it'd impoverish the person without any sort of gain thats the first stage.

Are you saying that a bookshelf/message board can be temporarily stolen in order to change the [tag]? And if so, do you mean just picking it up in the quarter and changing the [tag] there (in an enchantment basin you either carry around or one that happens to be in the quarter) or do you mean taking the fixture elsewhere, changing the [tag] and then returning it to the quarter after taking the one stolen item?

You can rename fixtures in any craftstation you have access to and also have a skill in. Not just basins. If you take an entire shelf out of someone's house to do this because you didn't bring anything around to help- you should also make the effort to bring it back and with that additional responsibility.

This sems to nullify the previous statement and suggest that the only way to steal from a [tagged] message board/shelf is to either steal from a faction that is bunk, or to (and this seems overly complicated) infiltrate the IC faction in order to be placed in the OOC faction. While this in and of itself is a monumental task considering how careful players can be about allowing characters into their faction, it also ignores [tags] that are just a character's name- something that is far more common.

It doesn't nullify it. You can thieve it by removing it then and there (VERY RISKY obviously, its more time in a space) - or you could go about it in a long time. You can do both- one requires awareness of the risk, the other requires you to somehow convince them them to let you in.

---

Arelith doesn't really have rules in the sense of a legal codex - as everything is down to the arbitration of staff and everything devolves back to the "Be Nice" rule. Like there are definitely things you can do because you're being selfish and meanspirited that will result in summary judgement.

You would be overthinking it if we're going to go to every single report and assume everyone involved did a bad and we're going to ban them or punish them.

So for example if you did something like temporarily took someone's bookshelf and they reported but you hadn't brought it back- when we'd get to it we'd probably investigate, see you took it, and go "hey man whats the story here" and it'd probably resolve itself. You'd either be bringing it back or you'd bring it back afterward.

If we found out you took 300 bookshelves from various people, all of them filled with stuff, and were disguising as Jeff Bookthief with the account name BOOKTHIEF NO RP GOD - it'd have a different presence and reaction, ultimately, resorting back to be nice.

[Mattamue]

Side note, if you pick up, then put down, then pick up a fixture again you can edit the fixture's name. This lets you remove the faction tag and take out one book. You do not have to apply the weight dweomer (and risk a 5% vaporization) to take ownership.

[DM Janitor]

Side note, if you pick up, then put down, then pick up a fixture again you can edit the fixture's name. This lets you remove the faction tag and take out one book. You do not have to apply the weight dweomer (and risk a 5% vaporization) to take ownership.

If this doesn't work it means its "ownership" is also already there for this reset. I don't think you can do it multiple times with the same object. So just wait a reset.

[Duchess Says]

If that's a new rule being announced that fixtures with items inside them cannot be stolen, but one item from them can be, then I'm in favor of the rule, but I think it would make no sense to extend this policy to bag/box/pouch because it would mean that to steal an item from the bag, you would need to break the rule in order to follow the rule after. I can only advice people to put their expensive stuff in a storage settlement and leave the quarter chests for resources and low value items.

Settlement storage is less secure than quarters behind locks. I learned this the hard way, don’t keep irreplaceable valuables there.

[D4wN]

In all honesty it’s disappointing rules would even need to be created for stuff like this. It’s simply an awful experience to have all your effort and books wiped (often without any RP).

While I see your point it is sort of part of the game. As items that are not on your body aren't safe.

At least this is not on survival game level where it is common for you to drop everything you carry.

I understand that. I’m just not the kind of person that would personally do that to people since I wouldn’t want it done to me and I think doing things like that violates the “Be Nice Rule”. Which in an of itself is super vague and incredibly open to interpretation. But I don’t think stealing someone’s entire private bookshelf, destroying or stealing custom fixtures with no RP, PVPing someone every 24 hours and things like that are considered being nice. At least not in my interpretation.

If someone were to come in, steal a precious book or fixture and leave some clues behind to follow up for RP. All the power to them. It can turn into a great story. That’s probably the only time or occasion I would personally steal something of anyone. Especially with the aim for them to get it back.

I find many times NPCs are also ignored when it comes to things like this. Dragging a huge and incredibly heavy statue away in front of multiple guard NPCs to steal it or drag a giant bookshelf through a faction house with NPCs just feels quite meh to me.

[Void]

I understand that. I’m just not the kind of person that would personally do that to people since I wouldn’t want it done to me and I think doing things like that violates the “Be Nice Rule”. Which in an of itself is super vague and incredibly open to interpretation. But I don’t think stealing someone’s entire private bookshelf, destroying or stealing custom fixtures with no RP, PVPing someone every 24 hours and things like that are not considered being nice. At least not in my interpretation.

Erm... in my opinion, the player and character are two different entities, although some people get attached and then there's bleed of information from character into them.

I play evil. The question would be "does my character want that bookshelf". The answer to that would be usually "no", becuase it is heavy and doesn't sell for much.

Regarding leaving clues on purpose, if the character being played is smart, they would make their best to ensure that there is no trace. I agree that the game is lacking in the department of leaving clues, but purposedly sabotaging my character is something I wouldn't do, as it goes against their character in the first place. The character CAN, however, taunt the quarter owner by adding more stuff into their chest, or enchanting some of the found items to place them back.

One of the fun experiences: somebody stole golem parts from me, and I had an opportunity to accuse a nearby neighbor of thievery. They told me that it wasn't them and complained that somebody breaks into quarters all the time, so they all had to upgrade security.
I was one of the people breaking in. That was fun.

[Morgy]

I understand that. I’m just not the kind of person that would personally do that to people since I wouldn’t want it done to me and I think doing things like that violates the “Be Nice Rule”. Which in an of itself is super vague and incredibly open to interpretation. But I don’t think stealing someone’s entire private bookshelf, destroying or stealing custom fixtures with no RP, PVPing someone every 24 hours and things like that are not considered being nice. At least not in my interpretation.

Erm... in my opinion, the player and character are two different entities, although some people get attached and then there's bleed of information from character into them.

Regarding leaving clues on purpose, if the character being played is smart, they would make their best to ensure that there is no trace. I agree that the game is lacking in the department of leaving clues, but purposedly sabotaging my character is something I wouldn't do, as it goes against their character in the first place. The character CAN, however, taunt the quarter owner by adding more stuff into their chest, or enchanting some of the found items to place them back.

You can suspend disbelief, to make stories better for everyone. You're leaving clues on purpose AS A PLAYER, not as the character, to make the story better for all.

[perseid]

If I'm being honest I think it just ties into the broader issue of quarterbreaking being uncounterable unless you own a boat and even then it requires you use your ship minimally. There are instances of good thief roleplay but for the most part it's just a tool for apathetic players and factions to grief opposed players and factions.

[Void]

I understand that. I’m just not the kind of person that would personally do that to people since I wouldn’t want it done to me and I think doing things like that violates the “Be Nice Rule”. Which in an of itself is super vague and incredibly open to interpretation. But I don’t think stealing someone’s entire private bookshelf, destroying or stealing custom fixtures with no RP, PVPing someone every 24 hours and things like that are not considered being nice. At least not in my interpretation.

Erm... in my opinion, the player and character are two different entities, although some people get attached and then there's bleed of information from character into them.

Regarding leaving clues on purpose, if the character being played is smart, they would make their best to ensure that there is no trace. I agree that the game is lacking in the department of leaving clues, but purposedly sabotaging my character is something I wouldn't do, as it goes against their character in the first place. The character CAN, however, taunt the quarter owner by adding more stuff into their chest, or enchanting some of the found items to place them back.

You can suspend disbelief, to make stories better for everyone. You're leaving clues on purpose AS A PLAYER, not as the character, to make the story better for all.

I'm not a fan of this approach, as to me it seems disrespectful towards the other player, as it sort of implies that they need a help from the thief to do something and can't proceed on their own without it. Besides, the thief character already put himself into danger and there are bazillion ways how it can go wrong, and when it does go wrong, the character won't be let go for the sake of better stories. So there's no reason to make it a bazillion+1 way it can go wrong.

In my opinion, leaving clues makes sense if your'e a dm. If I'm not a dm, then it your character sabotaging himself/herself for no reason.

[perseid]

Erm... in my opinion, the player and character are two different entities, although some people get attached and then there's bleed of information from character into them.

Regarding leaving clues on purpose, if the character being played is smart, they would make their best to ensure that there is no trace. I agree that the game is lacking in the department of leaving clues, but purposedly sabotaging my character is something I wouldn't do, as it goes against their character in the first place. The character CAN, however, taunt the quarter owner by adding more stuff into their chest, or enchanting some of the found items to place them back.

You can suspend disbelief, to make stories better for everyone. You're leaving clues on purpose AS A PLAYER, not as the character, to make the story better for all.

I'm not a fan of this approach, as to me it seems disrespectful towards the other player, as it sort of implies that they need a help from the thief to do something and can't proceed on their own without it. Besides, the thief character already put himself into danger and there are bazillion ways how it can go wrong, and when it does go wrong, the character won't be let go for the sake of better stories. So there's no reason to make it a bazillion+1 way it can go wrong.

In my opinion, leaving clues makes sense if your'e a dm. If I'm not a dm, then it your character sabotaging himself/herself for no reason.

"It's not my problem if there's no mechanic for it and I don't want to." is a weird defense to people complaining the behavior is unfun. Further, the player is the one who forms the character concept so even if you want to argue they're different entities the reality remains that the player chose to tailor a concept that purposely ignores whether or not it's having a negative effect on the people who interact with that character's rp.

[Void]

"It's not my problem if there's no mechanic for it and I don't want to." is a weird defense to people complaining the behavior is unfun. Further, the player is the one who forms the character concept so even if you want to argue they're different entities the reality remains that the player chose to tailor a concept that purposely ignores whether or not it's having a negative effect on the people who interact with that character's rp.

I don't steal shelves. Too heavy and don't sell for much.

If I have to break the concept and act against it to make a story happen, then for me that greatly reduces value of the resulting story, as it would be something that wouldn't happen naturally. That's why I don't like self sabotage for the sake of "story turns".

The reward is the sweetest when it was earned or fought for, and not given for free.

The main value of PWs are things that I did not see coming. Those are deeply enjoyable. However, when a thief has to do a stupid thing on purpose (contrary to own int stat) and leave evidence against himself on purpose in order to get caught, that's not a whole lot of fun compared to the unexpected.

You see, I need to enjoy the game as well. And purposely breaking character in hopes of "rp situations" is something I do not find enjoyable.

[Cuchilla]

I'd like to distinguish between rule and ruling. Rules are what they are: You may go by the meaning of the rule, or by the word of the rule. I prefer the former!

Rulings by DMs are important, because rulings give the staff flexibillity to change practice over time. The server changes all the time, new stuff is added, old stuff removed, and what makes sense in the past, might give no sense in the future.

Like bookshelves

Bookshelves were not there a few years ago, they have enriched our world, and player practice with them has changed over time.
The rules are fine. We don't need new ones. Now DM Janitor has clarified a practice - how to interpretate the rules. A practice that makes absolutely sense to me.

For now.

And thank you for that! Happy New Year

[Morgy]

"It's not my problem if there's no mechanic for it and I don't want to." is a weird defense to people complaining the behavior is unfun. Further, the player is the one who forms the character concept so even if you want to argue they're different entities the reality remains that the player chose to tailor a concept that purposely ignores whether or not it's having a negative effect on the people who interact with that character's rp.

I don't steal shelves. Too heavy and don't sell for much.

If I have to break the concept and act against it to make a story happen, then for me that greatly reduces value of the resulting story, as it would be something that wouldn't happen naturally. That's why I don't like self sabotage for the sake of "story turns".

The reward is the sweetest when it was earned or fought for, and not given for free.

The main value of PWs are things that I did not see coming. Those are deeply enjoyable. However, when a thief has to do a stupid thing on purpose (contrary to own int stat) and leave evidence against himself on purpose in order to get caught, that's not a whole lot of fun compared to the unexpected.

You see, I need to enjoy the game as well. And purposely breaking character in hopes of "rp situations" is something I do not find enjoyable.

If you want to play a Mary Sue, that's fine, but characters can make believable mistakes they don't notice, but the player does. If you apply this logic to any low level goodies/baddies you come across as the opposing alignment, as an epic, you'd be breaking character perhaps to turn a blind eye as player, in the name of fun, instead of just cutting them down/stomping out their plots before they get off the ground.

.. Let's step outside the IC box and think about how to make the -game- better for us all. Collaborative storytelling is always healthier than a desire to just win.

[Void]

If you want to play a Mary Sue,

A Mary Sue is a character that always has their way, and always wins. And what I describe is not it. Also, in your scenario, aren't you effectively trying to make the low level character into a Mary Sue by letting them escape from a situation they would not be able to leave normally?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

All I know is that I'd be very unhappy if someone decided to let me "win" in any situation by breaking their character. That greatly cheapens the experience and does not make the game better or more fun. The world feels much more alive when it is experienced without hand-holding.

[Morgy]

If you want to play a Mary Sue,

A Mary Sue is a character that always has their way, and always wins. And what I describe is not it. Also, in your scenario, aren't you effectively trying to make the low level character into a Mary Sue by letting them escape from a situation they would not be able to leave normally?

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

All I know is that I'd be very unhappy if someone decided to let me "win" in any situation by breaking their character. That greatly cheapens the experience and does not make the game better or more fun. The world feels much more alive when it is experienced without hand-holding.

Providing options of narrative, not just trying to win at the expense of creating something more enjoyable for all. Does that mean you have to sacrifice all the time? No, of course not. Conflict and struggle with other characters is a big part of the story, but that doesn't mean you can't give the opposing player a bone or two. I've always found that giving others a chance to blossom, generally creates something much richer for the future in terms of plots/development. That's not hand-holding. You can be creative about how you offer these chances. I suppose we just approach this game very differently.

Anyway, I think this is drifting off-topic. The ruling has been made in favour of this now by DM Janitor.

[Void]

Conflict and struggle with other characters is a big part of the story, but that doesn't mean you can't give the opposing player a bone or two. I've

*sighs*

(opinion)

They'll get their opportunity, but they won't get a handout. Thief leaving evidence against himself is a handout.

I find handouts condescending towards the other party. It is much more fun when all people involved use mind to the fullest looking for a solution and do not get a cheap "I mercifully let you win" victory.

You are low level who just wandered into someone who is supposed to kill you on sight? Work to earn your escape. I know I would. The encounter does not have to end in blood. But the escape has to be earned still.

[Zavandar]

i think waiting until a player is offline and stealing from them and just leaving a note (if that) going "haha I stole from you" isn't good roleplay. i'm reluctant to even call it roleplay at all.

i'm all for not bending over backwards to give people freebies and I also want people to earn things (myself included), but the amount of effort made to make quarterbreaking cool and fun is abysmal.

If you can't think of ways to make it engaging for the other player, you shouldn't be doing it.

[Edens_Fall]

I'd like to distinguish between rule and ruling. Rules are what they are: You may go by the meaning of the rule, or by the word of the rule. I prefer the former!

Rulings by DMs are important, because rulings give the staff flexibillity to change practice over time. The server changes all the time, new stuff is added, old stuff removed, and what makes sense in the past, might give no sense in the future.

Like bookshelves

Bookshelves were not there a few years ago, they have enriched our world, and player practice with them has changed over time.
The rules are fine. We don't need new ones. Now DM Janitor has clarified a practice - how to interpretate the rules. A practice that makes absolutely sense to me.

For now.

And thank you for that! Happy New Year

Well said!