Arelith

Currently under the game rules, a player can steal and entire shelf, filled with valuable player notes and grimoires/stream books, with little to no way of catching them.

Recently, I've heard the upset of a few players who have lost stacks of books and notes, of only sentimental value, because someone broke into their quarter and just swiped the entire shelf full in one go.

To me, a shelf is a storage container, and should be treated as such. Why is it acceptable to take dozens of items in one go, just because they are on a shelf? You can rob a player of years worth of sentimental items, in one go. It's not fun.

I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.

I really don't see any benefit from not doing this.

Thoughts?

I couldn’t agree more with this myself. A lot of history and as Morgy pointed out, items of sentimental value, are often stored in bookshelves. Not to mention the very valuable books like grimoires and certain stream books. I agree it should be treated as a storage chest where only one item can be stolen from it.

When I was playing a thief, I was dumbfounded by situation where someone was storing bags in their chest. After contemplation I picked one item stack out of bag, and put the bag back, then asked DMs for clarification.

DMs said that I was allowed to steal the whole bag.

Not sure how this translates to shelves. I was under impression that persistent containers aren't sold, and the ones that are avaialble are immobile fixtures that are part of the map. If shelves are mobile containers, then, maybe the rule should be expanded to cover them.

Having recently had a PC victim of this myself, I can simply say I've lost interest in creating libraries of stuff, when one player can just.. swipe it away without any interaction. Why do that to myself?

Morgy wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:04 pm

Having recently had a PC victim of this myself, I can simply say I've lost interest in creating libraries of stuff, when one player can just.. swipe it away without any interaction. Why do that to myself?

Normally I saw this sort of thing being done only with shelves that cannot be moved and are part of the map. See mage guilds for examples.

Void wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:05 pm

Morgy wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:04 pm

Having recently had a PC victim of this myself, I can simply say I've lost interest in creating libraries of stuff, when one player can just.. swipe it away without any interaction. Why do that to myself?

Normally I saw this sort of thing being done only with shelves that cannot be moved and are part of the map. See mage guilds for examples.

I think it's very odd that you can steal a shelf of a hundred books and it be allowed, but individually taking two from the shelf would probably be classed as a rule break.

I thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pm

I thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.

This is true, yes.

So, unless the item is ransomed, it's really just an unpleasant thing to do to another player.

In all honesty it’s disappointing rules would even need to be created for stuff like this. It’s simply an awful experience to have all your effort and books wiped (often without any RP). It’s the same when it comes to stealing/destroying fixtures with custom descriptions. It’s just very deflating when it happens. It’s a courteous thing in my opinion not to make other people’s day worse by messing with their personal items. Personally I rather someone steals a high tier rune from my chest than swipe my bookshelf or take a custom made fixture.

Oh I agree. I have lost bookshelves before which leads me to keep a copy on Google docs for easy reprints. Luckily or unluckily most thief go for the bags in one's chest.

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pm

I thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.

No. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.

D4wN wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:14 pm

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pm

I thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.

No. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.

Really? How?

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:16 pm

D4wN wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:14 pm

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pm

I thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.

No. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.

Really? How?

I don’t think it would be appreciated if I shared it. But it can be.

I would love to see shelves get a little more consideration in the stealing rules. Especially because not everyone can recopy the entire thing (and that's a little weird to do to rp wise sometimes). It certainly doesn't help that very little happens when shelves are stolen. You're unlikely to get it back.


-S

I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.

While I think some change in that direction would be appropriate, wouldn't this imply that shelves can no longer be tagged to prevent removal of individual books by parties who are not meant to have access?

I'm not sure how that rule could be changed in that particular way without also removing the ability to restrict people from pulling the texts from the shelf. Doing that would be a nightmare for any public libraries.

And as much as I have spent literally hundreds of hours interfacing with the book system in this game and would be incredibly disheartened to lose even one book, I don't think people with faction/personal tagged shelves should just get to have their books be untouchable?

neverwinternightly wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:32 pm

I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.

While I think some change in that direction would be appropriate, wouldn't this imply that shelves can no longer be tagged to prevent removal of individual books by parties who are not meant to have access?

I'm not sure how that rule could be changed in that particular way without also removing the ability to restrict people from pulling the texts from the shelf. Doing that would be a nightmare for any public libraries.

And as much as I have spent literally hundreds of hours interfacing with the book system in this game and would be incredibly disheartened to lose even one book, I don't think people with faction/personal tagged shelves should just get to have their books be untouchable?

Perhaps an option to make a copy with the right materials could be an option, aside from just printers?

Perhaps an option to make a copy with the right materials could be an option, aside from just printers?

Some form of that could be interesting! A way to get that book the person in question wants without needing faction/personal access to the shelf. Turning it into some kind of theft of information as opposed to theft of the book (or the entire shelf, in this case).

The main thing I could see coming up then (to annoyingly play Devil's Advocate even further) would just be the situations where the person legitimately wants to STEAL the book. Maybe it's their rival's diary and they want to hit them where it hurts. Maybe someone wrote a text that shines a horrible light on their friend. Maybe it's just a dossier full of that person's secrets. There's far less impact to just... copying a book.

This idea has me thinking about some kind of consumable or mechanical way to interact with the shelf that might pass through restrictions set in place? Some way to allow the theft of a singular book per 24 hours. Might be interesting? It might also be nightmarish. Not to mention, I can't imagine it'd be the easiest thing to code.

I fall into the wbthtga camp on this one just like I would if you were talking about a sack full of addy ore being stolen. Both represent hours of in game time, both hurt when they are stolen.

It may be callous but, nothing is permanent on Arelith. I’d take your loss OP as a reminder to keep a copy of important documents outside of the game because there is a chance that another character will steal them (decide for yourself what is kosher or not to recreate).

Personal I have very little sympathy for book shelves with masses of grimoires saved up being stolen, much as I have little sympathy for stacks of expensive ingots being stolen. It feels like a reasonable counter measure to extreme wealth that some of it can be robbed in one fell swoop.

Curve wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:03 pm

I fall into the wbthtga camp on this one just like I would if you were talking about a sack full of addy ore being stolen. Both represent hours of in game time, both hurt when they are stolen.

It may sound callous but nothing is permanent on Arelith. I’d take your loss OP as a reminder to keep a copy of important documents outside of the game because there is a chance that another character will steal them (decide for yourself what is kosher or not to recreate).

Personal I have very little sympathy for book shelves with masses of grimoires saved up being stolen, much as I have little sympathy for stacks of expensive ingots being stolen. It feels like a reasonable counter measure to extreme wealth that some of it can be robbed in one fell swoop.

I personally find that phrased misused a lot. Server crashes, bugs, etc.. stuff gets lost, that’s tough.

I just don’t see how taking stacks of player made books, in one swoop, is being excellent to your fellow players. Perhaps that line of thought is just more important to me.

On your other point, though, I agree. Grimoires should not necessarily have the same protection.

So here's some illumination:

1) if you've put bookshelves outside somewhere to be a public fixture. It's fair game, it's the same as storage chest or similar object that isn't behind private doors. You're letting anyone basically do anything. People to take these things are still beholden to the Be Nice rule and if people keep taking your shelves and their contents from one location in a griefy fashion feel free to report it for our review.

2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards. You can't steal a book and the whole fixture. If the shelf is empty, you can steal it.

3) With any theft roleplay is expected - while we'll give lenience to items in public even that should have a motivation and story behind it. If it's a one time hit of someone's shelves a simple theft - a note on their door, the book replaced with a fake book or something, is a good way to show they've been struck. If you keep hitting the same place over and over however we'll be seeing RP is being appropriately escalated with each further grievance.


tl;dr

Don't grief people's private shelves, public shelves are fair game, and while a simple calling card might do for a one time theft - repeated visits = more RP expected.

DM Janitor wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:09 pm

2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards.

A couple of clarifying questions.
-When you say, "please only take one book" is that a best practice suggestion or a new rule?
-Currently you can only change the name of a fixture in an enchantment basin. If a quarter does not have an enchantment basin how can someone be expected to change a [name] in order to steal just one note/book/whatever?

DM Janitor wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:09 pm

So here's some illumination:



2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards. You can't steal a book and the whole fixture. If the shelf is empty, you can steal it.


tl;dr

Don't grief people's private shelves, public shelves are fair game, and while a simple calling card might do for a one time theft - repeated visits = more RP expected.

Hi Janitor!

Thanks a lot for your reply.

Can we take it now that bookshelf fixtures in quarters, cannot be stolen as whole so long as they contain books on them? I'm pretty sure that is what is being said. If so, might it be worth a larger announcement post? Many of us seem to think you can break into a quarter and take the shelf and all one hundred books on it.

Edit: Beat me to it.

IMO this issue could be easily extended to any container, really.

Sure, I'll announce it.

---

And not it can't be done with containers for now. While we want to be able to police containers and stacks of items the way tracking works is a bit more difficult to sort through by normal, mortal means. I think someone on the development team will address this eventually so it can be, though.

It's something that is a bit of a weird line with theft rules but right now has to by its limitations operate under the golden rule.

Bookshelves, however, are different. They are fixtures. We can see when someone has fiddled with them.

Here's to the new year and the expansion of the police state.

Is the new rule that you can only steal one book/note from a fixture?

If so putting a [tag] on the fixture prevents anything from being stolen as it relates to notes. I’m not sure about books. Can someone chime in who knows?