Regarding the Recent Druid Changes

[Wytchee]

I would like to see druids able to consecrate an area that gives a buff to natural creatures and characters and a negative to unnatural creatures like undead and constructs.

+2 ab/ac/saves to natural, -2 to unnatural.

Perhaps make it a console ability that effects an area for hours per level, or days per level? Allow only one per druid or something?

Or maybe buff the bonus we get from Nature Sense. +2 to DCs while in wilderness areas, etc.

I'm not even 100% sure what -balance does.

[HD52]

I'm not even 100% sure what -balance does.

Hello! Here you go: critter population and -balance explained.

[Wytchee]

I'm not even 100% sure what -balance does.

Hello! Here you go: critter population and -balance explained.

TYVM.

[RedGiant]

As a long time player of druids, I've been watching this thread for awhile. Jagel has covered most of my opinions. I don't think casting Druids are terrible at all, BUT I would agree that FoM proliferation is destroying much of this niche and have already posted a suggestion to remove it.

I am not as troubled by most with the mingling of monk to make superior shapers, provided this comes at a cost. (Granted, most of my Druid experience has been in the UD where a monk Druid's typical casting lvl reduction to 24 vs. a typical Drow's SR 32 is something to really think about!) As has been already noted, sabotaging one dip-class perk isn't really fair, unless we start taking on all the others. (I don't recommend this, BTW, because where does it end?) What I have ever been in favor of is making top-tier perks for pure druids (obviously occurring in lvls 28+ like wild mage and warlock end runs).

In this vein, I long ago recommended the Totem buff progression NOT stop at 26, because this practically encouraged at least 4 lvls of another class.

I also think the role of animal companions has been largely overlooked, and this is a significant part of the Druid package. They were insane and useful for a time. They are still pretty good when properly prepared. I really liked the craziness that happened at lvl 30 on old companions. I haven't tried one currently, but if the same idea is in place, this should not be ignored as a top-tier perk of pure classing.

Finally, I've always been against reducing dragon shape. Its a great form and a top-tier perk that that makes a druid temporarily a top-form tank at the expense of casting. I think this is inherently balanced. As for making a lessor variant; we already have a reduced form of dragon shape available at lvl 17...the spell Shape Change: Red Dragon.

In short, if anything I think we need to nerf FoM drops and look at pure (and pure totem) Druid perks to occur for lvls 28-30. (I love the mask of a thousand faces idea as this capstone!)

A final thought, if the staff feels we need to do some serious balance work, I would just sound my usual pleas: grandfathering and/or your cool new relevel mechanic, please!

[Lorkas]

sabotaging one dip-class perk isn't really fair, unless we start taking on all the others. (I don't recommend this, BTW, because where does it end?)

It isn't that all one-class dips are a bad thing, it's that some classes have features that are too good frontloaded into the first few levels. Dipping monk on a druid gives you potentially around 20 AC for only 3 levels between the WIS bonus and tumble.

Dipping 3 rogue on anything gives you 6 AC and access to every spell item you could ever want.

Dipping 3 bard on anything gives you the same as rogue but +6 to saves vs. spells and discipline as well (and more, if geared for spellcraft).

Dipping paladin on a sorc gives you fear immunity and +14-15 on your saves.

If we just reign in some of those crazy powerful dips (without making them totally pointless to take!), it would go a long way to addressing power creep. Asking for this stuff isn't a matter of being against multiclassing, it's disagreeing with the enormous scale to which it increases your power in only a few levels.

Cap monk AC to the number of monk levels (maybe 2/level), cap paladin/blackguard CHA save bonus to the number of paladin/blackguard levels (maybe 2/level), and cap UMD/tumble to the number of rogue/bard/assassin levels +3 (maybe levels*2+3). That would still allow someone willing to take 6 or 7 levels in a class the full amazing bonuses, but give a lesser bonus to someone who takes only 3 or 4 levels. Importantly: people building their characters would have to really think about whether they get more from a 5th, 6th, 7th, etc. level in their dip class than they would by taking more levels in their main class.

As it stands now, once you take a 3rd paladin level as a sorcerer, the idea of taking any more paladin levels is laughable. This could make you actually think about that option seriously.

[Giftstoff]

There is a big difference between a dip in monk for a druid and a dip in rogue or bard.

Monk gives you +22 AC. (15 wisdom, 6 tumble.) Discipline dip, Hide/ms dip, Cleave Feat, Stunning Fist, Deflect Arrows Feat, Monk speed +10%, Flurry of blows, Evasion, Improved unarmed strike, and still mind for +2 will saves.

It gives more than any dip in the entire game by a large margin, even beating out paladin dips for sorcerers. All of that for 3 levels.

[Sockss]

For clarity - dipping monk doesn't give you all of that AC. Remember, you lose armour + shield. Monk feats are great and all, but the feats aren't all applicable at once to most dips. (And hide/ms is p weak)

You're likely to lose AC on a cleric. (8 full plate, 8 (3+5) shield.) vs an approximate 14-15 WIS bonus.

Of course it's way better on druids, that aren't wearing heavy armour, are using shapes a lot and can't +5 their shield (Or don't have an art).

Bard dip is also better for your CL, as you don't need to pickup UMD elsewhere.

The solution here isn't to trash peoples builds (At least I'd hope not), it's to implement another viable build path that trades the benefits these dips bring, for something else. Currently there's no reason not to dip paladin/monk/bard etc; unless you're intentionally building terribly. (Which I get, because it's fun. Though more viable options is also fun!)

[perek586]

Forgetting dex bonus for robes instead of full plate, APR and AB bonus from using quarterstaff instead of shield+thing.

[Wytchee]

And the fact that you needn't wear armor or use a shield, freeing up two inventory slots for enchanted gear. The benefits aren't all about numbers, purely.

3 levels of monk net you:
- 15 AC from your wisdom bonus
- 6 AC from access to tumble
- access to discipline
- a 10% undispellable movement increase
- deflect arrows
- cleave
- (essentially) two free armor slots

6 levels of monk net you:
- everything above
- 1 AC
- improved knockdown
- a 20% undispellable movement increase
- immunity to disease

All things considered, it is a little absurd.

[RedGiant]

To Lorkas: your assessment is fair as should any remedy be. However, you've just scratched the surface on dip benefits. There are many more synergy granting combos for any variety of reasons. In addition, almost every PRC ever is a dip class that grants sometimes quite favorable benefits to the base classes. I still question whether this should really be tinkered with, because its really a core feature of the game. If yes, this is a major overhaul, which should steam right on down the line looking at attacks-per-round, skill-dumping, save-stocking, benefits gained, etc. Then, of course, you have to rebalance all creatures. Its just terribly complicated IMO.

To Wytchee, pure classing Druid has its benefits too, which we should not over look.
Pure classing druid vs. the typical 6 monk dip nets you...
6 caster lvls and associated benefits
6 animal companion levels
Unlimited Elder Elemental Shape
1 Epic Bonus Feat

While this sounds paltry at first, one really has to start looking at what these things do for you.
The effects are really too many to deal with here, but if you want to focus on casting (and associated magical combat phenomenon) rather than gnawing on ankles in animal form (without casting spells at all), then there really is no other way to go.

Some quick examples.

Lets look at one important spell as affected by Caster Lvl.
The spell: Spell Resistance
lvl 24/6 Druid/Monk - somewhat easily dispelled, but healthy 36 SR
lvl 30 Druid - rarely dispelled, and phenomenal 42 SR

Lets look at the differences in a companion.
Animal Companion: Badger (One of my faves!)
lvl 24/6 Druid/Monk - lvl 24 Badger +1 Enhancement +1 Regen, 8 Greater Rages
lvl 30 Druid - lvl 30 Badger +3 Enhancement, +3 Regen, 20/+1 DR, + Greater Toughness, 10 Greater Rages, +6lvls of HD, AB, Saves, Skills, and Stat increases + associated effects from +6 caster lvl enhancements; i.e. + additional Regen, Greater Magic Fang, and Awaken Deflection.

While I do not suggest this all evens out with a monk dip, what I am suggesting is there are existing perks to pure classing. To my earlier point, if we could put some bumps in for lvls 28-30, I think this would go a long way to bridging the gap. I really like lore-appropriate things like 'Mask of a Thousand Faces'.

Here are a few other suggestions.
-Allow lvl 28-30 Druids to summon Elemental Monoliths
-Give lvl 28-30 Druids an NWN friendly version of 'Timeless Body', i.e. the Druid is no longer subject to ability/stat decreases or negative level effects.
- Or even give them one or more of these perks!