Hexblade

[Dr. B]

Chill people. The class isn’t live yet, and the testing and feedback period is precisely to make sure it’s balanced. If it’s not, it’ll get tweaked.

[CosmicOrderV]

We could always restrict how CHA-to-saves, and Divine Might/Shield function. It's inevitable that we'll get a change like this.

I won't get into that though, just wanted to say I love the class concept. Shaman and Hexblade are may favorite character archetypes, so I'm super stoked to see these two available!

That said, like others have pointed out, I think it could use some tweaking. Tarkus pointed out how heavily it leans towards combat effectiveness. Exploring the concept a bit, I feel like it could use more flavor, fluff, and pomp abilities. Nerf the martial effectiveness, give it a little somethin'-somethin' elsewhere.

Those who seek out this reviled knowledge, to become a life-force leaching hexblade, surely dabble in occult knowledge. How about Identify on their spell list? Functioning as a sort of psychometry. What sordid past does this trinket hold? What latent suffering clings to it? This aspect of hexblade would be further enabled by some spells along these lines.

In fact, why do they have so many saving-throw spells on the list, when intended as melee focus? What about a short range teleport to hostile target, that deals Sonic damage in a short radius. "Thunderstep!"

They get Protection from Elements, but it competes with zoo spells. Why not also give Absorb Elements?

They get Find Familiar, but this really doesn't make sense to me. Just lends to their swiss-army-knife nature that Tarkus mentioned. Everybody will go fey, and have a pocket rogue. Since the class is all about manipulating life-forces (necromancy), and is evil to boot, with a slow spell progression... why not add Animate Dead to their spell-list? Assuming their spell-slots advance like Rangers, this means they won't have Animate Undead as an option until level 14/15. And it'll only ever be one undead. Sounds legit to me. If you really want Hexblades to have some effectiveness in the realm of locks and traps, why not give them Find Traps, and Knock. In this way as well, it seems to reassert the loose association these practitioners would have with learning dark secrets. They've learned how to bypass security (somewhat, would still need a rogue or skill dumps)! But at the cost of spell-slots now, rather than a free pocket-rogue.

Along the line of hexing like spells, it's also strange to not see Charm Person. Try for better merchant prices! Dominate Animal as well, just for some fun so you can emote through your ensnared little rabbit, just how much it's suffering. They already have Dominate Person, after all. These two previous spells seem like lesser examples in the same vein.

I also kind of find it weird that they get GMW, when they get a class feature that already does the same. Seems redundant.

I would also think it stands to reason they would know Remove Curse, since... they can bestow curses. One with the other, seems sensible. Same with Remove Blindness/Deafness. They can cast, but can't remove?

Some other ideas that seem to make sense at face value: Entropic Shield, Hold Person, Negative Energy Protection, Neutralize Poison, Glyph of Warding, Dismissal.

Edit: Another fantastic custom spell idea, Find Secrets. It would be to Find Traps, what Legend Lore is to Identify. Find Secrets giving +1 Search per CL ... for 1, 2, maybe 3 rounds, at most. Very short duration, but useful in a pinch if you know traps are present, shadow doors are nearby, or if you just want a hot-shot at some fat loot and are willing to burn spell-slots for it.

[magistrasa]

The spell list is pretty strange to me. The fact that it's a spontaneous half-caster might mean that it doesn't get all the level 2 spells it might want, but I'm not sure because I don't know how many spells a spontaneous half-caster would be able to pick. That said, the spell choices mostly fall into two categories: Useless, or Boring. Unfortunately, Boring is pretty much anything anyone's gonna take.

The fact that the class is such an effective self-buffer is a little disappointing, because it could really stand to benefit from some reliance on, or synergy with, other classes. Make UMD useful to it by incentivising them to buy Zoo wands, or enticing them to multiclass into another spellcasting class. Contrast this with the weird inclusion of DC spells that no one will ever want, along with some damage spells that'll amount to a wasted round with the kinda damage output we're looking at for this bad boy, and you've got yourself a railroad of chosen spells with very little reason to deviate from the sensible course. Why even have spells at all?

I think the spell list could do with a lot more "fun" spells. Stuff like Animate Dead, or Nightmare, or Shadow Evocation. And ditch GMW you goof, you have an innate class ability to enhance your weapons already! Maybe Keen Edge or Darkfire and other weapon enchantment spells could get a pass, but GMW is just redundant.

(Damn, COV beat me to the punch on that point.)

On a different note entirely - should the Hexblade really be getting Dark Blessing? Sure, there's a note in the class description that you could be a "pacted" warrior in service to dark powers - but is that idea intrinsic to the class? Dark Blessing speaks of a more (un)holy agreement between the character and a higher power, bound to service in exchange for its blessings. If that's not meant to be the core theme of the class - especially when Warlocks occupy the same thematic niche and don't get Dark Blessing themselves - then maybe it should get cut out. I mean, it'd be a bit redundant if people are likely to multiclass into BG anyhow.

Also, Find Familiar should be restricted to evil aligned familiars. If it even continues to exist at all. Hexblade does not need all the advantages that come with the Pixie and Pseudodragon. As a matter of fact it doesn't need the ability, period. There's very little thematic or mechanical consistency in its inclusion. (I'm actually a little annoyed by this because if anyone should be getting Find Familiar IT SHOULD BE THE SHAMAN)

[Dr. B]

I think they should lose dark blessing. There is about as much reason for them to get it as warlocks.

[Drowboy]

A selection of thematically fitting familiars would be nice, but that gets into 'why the hell is pixie still here' territory I guess.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think there should be some thematic consequences of taking the class, too:

- something to do with deity restrictions (can a LE hexblade worship Tyr? they're not divine casters, so they don't technically have to follow alignment follower restrictions. but there's gotta be something)

- I guess we don't know, but I hope there's a visual similarity to a warlock using eldritch blast. there has to be something discernibly "off" when a hexblade uses a hex or curse.

- this is the only evil-restricted base class we have on Arelith. I'm very cautious about this and what it could mean. I think it'd be worthwhile if there was some sort of Arelith-specific canon about the hexblade, too. Just like how warlocks HAVE to have consciously and willingly signed their pact - no extortion, or coercion there. I don't want "pity me" hexblades.

[versus]

Really stoked to test one out when I get a chance.
I think the negative reactions above to its array of abilities ignore the fact that stacking these abilities require going all-in on feats and still not getting everything they want off the menu. They're neat curse and weapon effect possibilities, but that's kinda necessary as there isn't much else going on with the class, and while it may still need tweaking I don't think what's been presented is very far off the mark.
Well done!

[Scurvy Cur]

A generally thoughtful synopsis.

The Serb has already said most of what I would have, and his analysis of what is problematic with the class is on point. I would add only a few things:

It seems, generally, like there was an attempt to limit the most powerful hexes and curses to later levels in the class, presumably to limit how many of them you could pick up without going pure. Only whoever did the selecting doesn't seem to have had a good grasp of which of the hexes were strong. Currently, you can pick up pretty much all the good abilities if you go pure, and skip the mediocre or redundant ones.

I would also like to point out that giving curse song levels of AC reduction to a class with full AB is problematic. The initial release of PDK Vanguard had precisely the same problem 3 years ago, and it was resolved by nerfing the degree of AC reduction available.

Similarly, the server's early experience with spellsword gave us a crash course in how rapidly on-hit effects can stack up, particularly if the saving throw attached to them is very high or if the effect is saveless. I would be very cautious about doing this with hexblade. Anyone that ever died to original acid imbue stacking to 300 damage per round worth of ticks for 10 rounds knows what I'm talking about.

Damage variance is probably going to be huge between hexblades, which will make finding the proper numbers for the various class effects significantly more difficult to find.

Were I to suggest a first round of nerfs, I would propose the following:

- Zap dark blessing. Lots of people have commented on this, but it seems gratuitous and unnecessary.

- Hex scaling changed from 1/6 levels to 1/7; this brings the debuffs to AC/AB/Saves down to -3 for dipped hexblades and -4 for pure, skill penalties will go from between 8 and 10 points to between 6 and 8 points. End numbers wind up a lot closer to what bard and pdk vanguard offer. Watch closely and if it's still too strong, go to 1/10 levels to take an additional point off dipped and pure hexblades both.

- Worms to -1% healing effectiveness per hexblade level, in line with the damage vuln hexes. Apply to all healing, not just magical healing. -26-30% received healing is still a very powerful effect, especially in largescale fights. 100% is absolutely too much, and would make a worms hexblade completely mandatory in any sort of group pvp.

- Saving throw attached to Curse of Draining, implement an internal cooldown on proc so that people are not flooded with 5 procs per round. Tentatively, I'd suggest 6s between procs.

- Remove the 1/day limit on curse, but restrict the number of weapon curses that can be active at once; I would suggest 2 sources of damage and 1 source of "bonus effect" such as blood, worms, or drain. This puts hex more in line with spellsword, and narrows the damage variance considerably. It's also a soft patch for what I see as a probably broken blood/sacrifice curse combo, offsetting all self-damage with an equal quantity of heal; a hexblade can still do this if they want, but it means they skip worms or drain, both of which are powerful effects, to do so.

- Consider making curse song and hexblade hexes non-stacking. Rather, apply only the largest single penalty in any category (so a target hit by a level 20 curse song and a level 30 hex simultaenously would be facing a penalty of -4 AB/-5 AC/-8 skills/-4 saves, if using the scaled down hex numbers listed above, rather than -6 AB/-9 AC/-16 skills/-7 will/-6 fort/-6 reflex. As a rule, allowing too many overlapping debuffs to stack, particularly too many saveless debuffs, both makes balancing pve content really difficult, and boils a lot of pvp fights down to questions of "did you bring the right debuff composition?".

[Hazard]

I'm really digging the theme. Nice to see hex-blade added, but I have to tack on my agreement with others that it needs to be tuned down and by a lot. But that's to be expected with something new, I'm surprised ALL the new classes weren't this way at first.

Good job, very cool!

[Nevrus]

I think one of the worst parts of the melee playstyle is how few buttons they usually need to hit.

This adds exactly one button to hit, Hex, and then you're back into normal play.

I think it would be interesting if the blade curses only lasted 5 rounds and were half-round actions to activate, meaning that by spending two rounds preparing you can have three rounds of four curses, and then occasionally splash two curses to refresh them. Perhaps, if possible, add a full AB attack to the activation, so you can cut your APR in half in order to get your really strong weapon effects activated, like special abilities.

That's a playspace that isn't really met with anything on the server right now except for occasional Duelist shenanigans, which have long cooldowns. Whereas the 'buff yourself and your weapon and then enjoy thirty uninterrupted minutes of slaying' is met by Spellsword already.

Just a thought. The effects would be more balanced if activating them was a gameplay activity and not one press of a button to make your sword uber forever. You can keep the enhancement bonus lasting all day, though. That's just convenient GMW.

[CononTheAthenian]

Cool class, gives hope that the infamously difficult to implement psionic classes might find their way into Arelith some day too! (A longshot, but one can dream. )

Dark Blessing and the +5 weapon at hours/level might have a profound effect on balance as Hexblade is currently presented. I couldn't tell from the language on the Twitter announcement quite how curses work. I understand that it's 1/day, but can they be dispelled? Hours/level is essentially permanent for most purposes, so if the +5 enhancement curse can be applied to a conventional magical weapon that's a very strong ability.

EDIT: I suppose that's somewhat like Holy Sword/Avenger. I'm a bit rusty, I haven't played since pre-NWN:EE. Can you apply that to an enchanted weapon? That spell is rounds/level though, so significantly different in utility. I'm fairly sure you can dispel Holy Sword with a standard dispel check.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I think one of the worst parts of the melee playstyle is how few buttons they usually need to hit.

This adds exactly one button to hit, Hex, and then you're back into normal play.

I think it would be interesting if the blade curses only lasted 5 rounds and were half-round actions to activate, meaning that by spending two rounds preparing you can have three rounds of four curses, and then occasionally splash two curses to refresh them. Perhaps, if possible, add a full AB attack to the activation, so you can cut your APR in half in order to get your really strong weapon effects activated, like special abilities.

That's a playspace that isn't really met with anything on the server right now except for occasional Duelist shenanigans, which have long cooldowns. Whereas the 'buff yourself and your weapon and then enjoy thirty uninterrupted minutes of slaying' is met by Spellsword already.

Just a thought. The effects would be more balanced if activating them was a gameplay activity and not one press of a button to make your sword uber forever. You can keep the enhancement bonus lasting all day, though. That's just convenient GMW.

Thing is, if it's repeatedly pressing the same button every few minutes instead it's the same, just more annoying and prone to bugging/lag death?

I actually find Spellsword quite engaging, because you have a limited repertoire of non-buff spells to use at key points and choosing when and how to engage those versus just keeping on swinging is pretty detailed compared to my past experiences on a pure caster, where you sling an AoE/some disabling spells and let the summon go to town.

I suppose a battlemage build on a Hexblade is less viable, though, due to the lack of Arcane Spell Failure reduction that a Spellsword gets. I'm torn on what to suggest on that front because on one hand, it's a real downside which is probably built into the Hexblade class and, in any case, stops it straying too much into Spellsword territory - on the other, having to micromanage buffing/prep spells in civvies and then switching to armour to rumble is such a QOL downside.

[Archnon]

Having read the descriptions on the hexes and curses and admittedly not knowing anything about the lore, would it be crazy to switch hexblade to non-lawful. It seems like all the curses and hexes edge on a bit of chaos and this would encourage fey and fiend pact styles. More importantly it would limit the combo with monk where you start hitting your curses more per round. Someone with more lore history could probably tell me why this is or is not a good idea.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Please also consider what might happen if you get multiple Hexblades PC's working together. Should certain abilities stack or not stack? Are they lone wolves or sociable when it comes to meeting another of their ilk? If your cursed once, does that make you harder to curse twice or thrice?

I would suggest Hex magics lean more closely towards Wild Magic than closely controlled Divine or Arcane magic. As such their ability to stack might be inherently weak.

I have great reservations about letting players have Level Drain as an ability. Note: PC Vampires do not have such inherently (iirc) and they are a major reward. Giving such as an on hit ability to a class might be dangerous.

I would suggest Hexblades are a little *wilder* in nature than a Spellblade or another caster or specifically a Bard.

I also have reservations about them being a full BAB / fighter level HitDie class too.

[Baron Saturday]

Much though I would love to play a hex/monk, a non-lawful, non-good restriction does make a certain sense to me.

[garrbear758]

Please keep the feedback coming. I am aware some things need toning down, but that is why I launch major new features like this onto PGCC rather than straight to the main server. The world isn't going to end if something is overtuned on PGCC. I'm not going to post any planned changes yet as I'm still monitoring feedback and want to let people actually try it rather than only making suggestions based on how it looks on paper. I can say the level drain will definitely be toned down though.

[Hazard]

I'm curious about the ability that prevents magical healing. I think that could be very overpowered in PvP, if it's like what I'm imagining. I haven't seen it in action though, so maybe not.

So it lasts for 6 seconds, but I assume that is refreshed every time you get hit.

Would this effectively disable a healer cleric's overhealing ability?

What would happen to heal over time effects? Would the spell remain but not heal while the debuff is active or would it be removed entirely, or would it still function normally because it was cast before the debuff took hold?

What if a vampire PC/undead is debuffed in such a way? Does it protect them from being healed to death?

Is there any planned way to remove/protect from this debuff or any others, like negative energy protection or something? I assume NEP will at least protect from level drain, right?

What would you say is this classes weakness/weaknesses?

[garrbear758]

I'm curious about the ability that prevents magical healing. I think that could be very overpowered in PvP, if it's like what I'm imagining. I haven't seen it in action though, so maybe not.

So it lasts for 6 seconds, but I assume that is refreshed every time you get hit.

Would this effectively disable a healer cleric's overhealing ability?

What would happen to heal over time effects? Would the spell remain but not heal while the debuff is active or would it be removed entirely, or would it still function normally because it was cast before the debuff took hold?

What if a vampire PC/undead is debuffed in such a way? Does it protect them from being healed to death?

Is there any planned way to remove/protect from this debuff or any others, like negative energy protection or something? I assume NEP will at least protect from level drain, right?

What would you say is this classes weakness/weaknesses?

As it works right now, it lasts 6 seconds and gets refreshed. This is another ability that will likely be adjusted.
It will not disable overheal, and it will not have an effect on regeneration or healkits.
Mechanically, it blocks heal spells / potions from firing on the character if they are affected by the Curse of Worms.

NEP will protect from the level drain.

Both of these are either going to get a save, a cooldown, or a significant adjustment in how they work.

The biggest weakness of the class is that most of it's damage is blocked by defensive essences and/or energy buffer. The capstone ability is blocked by NEP, and the hex is single target making it way less effective than PDK or bardsong in a group fight since it has a 3 turn cooldown. Additionally, if you dip BG for DM/DS, you're going to end up having a decently long windup similarly to paladin. Dipping will also weaken all of your abilities since they all scale on level to a maximum at level 30, and it leaves you taking 2 less abilities.

[Hazard]

I'm curious about the ability that prevents magical healing. I think that could be very overpowered in PvP, if it's like what I'm imagining. I haven't seen it in action though, so maybe not.

So it lasts for 6 seconds, but I assume that is refreshed every time you get hit.

Would this effectively disable a healer cleric's overhealing ability?

What would happen to heal over time effects? Would the spell remain but not heal while the debuff is active or would it be removed entirely, or would it still function normally because it was cast before the debuff took hold?

What if a vampire PC/undead is debuffed in such a way? Does it protect them from being healed to death?

Is there any planned way to remove/protect from this debuff or any others, like negative energy protection or something? I assume NEP will at least protect from level drain, right?

What would you say is this classes weakness/weaknesses?

As it works right now, it lasts 6 seconds and gets refreshed. This is another ability that will likely be adjusted.
It will not disable overheal, and it will not have an effect on regeneration or healkits.
Mechanically, it blocks heal spells / potions from firing on the character if they are affected by the Curse of Worms.

NEP will protect from the level drain.

Both of these are either going to get a save, a cooldown, or a significant adjustment in how they work.

The biggest weakness of the class is that most of it's damage is blocked by defensive essences and/or energy buffer. The capstone ability is blocked by NEP, and the hex is single target making it way less effective than PDK or bardsong in a group fight since it has a 3 turn cooldown. Additionally, if you dip BG for DM/DS, you're going to end up having a decently long windup similarly to paladin. Dipping will also weaken all of your abilities since they all scale on level to a maximum at level 30, and it leaves you taking 2 less abilities.

Okay, thanks for the response. That all sounds pretty cool!

[Hazard]

Just thought of another thing. Would the heal preventing debuff get in the way of someone using -pray to heal themselves?

[The1Kobra]

In PnP, the hex is a single target ability (free action), with a Will Save DC of 10+1/2 Hexblade Level+CHA mod. It's only used a few times per day(1+1/4 levels, about). The hex there is a preset ability, so no picking and choosing the effects there, alas.

Now for the weapon curses, the hexblade can stack all of them and that makes it very powerful. Granted, the hex only works on one target every 3 minutes, so the hexes are great for 1v1 duels but not much in other contexts. They at current don't have a save either, so it can be very powerful for that. However, getting a bonus 25+ damage by going with the curses is extremely powerful.

The class synergizes very easily with blackguard. I could see a common build being 24/3/3 Hex/BG/Tumble. So odds are they'll be using divine might and divine shield to get their AC and damage up pretty high.

Still, right now they have a lot going for them. They're a base class, they get full BAB, they get spellcasting (kind of like a ranger/paladin, CHA based instead), they get 4 skills/level, and they get all those curses which can be pretty powerful. If they do get all of the hexes/curses at once though then that would make them grossly OP. Though again, giving them a limited number at any given time would likely be prudent ala spellsword.

On their own, the Hexblade doesn't have /that/ many defensive options, though they still get excellent saves. They still wear armor and have some self-buffing, but dipping BG for divine shield means they can get a high AC too.

Just to throw some numbers, I managed to get on a pretty roughly slapped together build, using a scimitar:
Ending STR 24, Ending CHA 18

AB: 20+5+4+13+4 = 46
AC: 10+6+2+8 + 4+2+1+5 +10+4+1 = 56 (61 with expertise, 66 with IMPR expertise)
Damage: 12-20X2 1-6+13+4+4 +4+4+4+4+4+10 = 1-6+51 = 52-57

Yikes, 52-57 just from self-buffing and divine might? That's just... yikes. Not even including the 2d6 sneak attack from rogue. Naturally there are 6 different elements so DR could throw things off but this is a lot more base damage output than a lot of classes get. Stack that with full AB, huge saves thanks to CHA-saves and Spellcraft being a class skill, 4 skills/level, extra utility from curses, AND self-buffing AND self-healing on-hits, you have a recipe for an extremely powerful character.

It might be prudent to ensure that only a certain number of hexes/curses can be active at any given time. Having them all work at once is just too much.

[garrbear758]

Just thought of another thing. Would the heal preventing debuff get in the way of someone using -pray to heal themselves?

No. Pray, regeneration, monstrous regeneration, healkits, and respite are unaffected.

[Drowboy]

1-6+13+4+4 +4+4+4+4+4+10

All of those +4s are going to get eaten by defensive essences, tho.
So more like d6+str+divine might+4 enhancement. Which is less impressive, I guess.

[The1Kobra]

It can still pierce through them with crits. The weapon curse provides enhancement so they only need a keen weapon. (And they can self GMW a bronze weapon and then curse it for a +5 enhancement and the curse benefits, if they want to). Also think of PvE, there's a lot of enemies out there that don't have 5/- resist to everything, so they'll still be trucking out a lot of damage. Naturally if they do, it is less impressive than all of those variable damage buffs, but still, it's not like they're lacking.

Also keep in mind if they take the damage vulnerability hex then all those little damages suddenly get a lot more dangerous. On the splash build that's a 24% vulnerability.

The hexblade is still getting 4 skills/level (Many of the full BAB classes only get 2), still get the self buffing spellcasting, and the hexes. So they still have a lot going for them.

[Hazard]

Just thought of another thing. Would the heal preventing debuff get in the way of someone using -pray to heal themselves?

No. Pray, regeneration, monstrous regeneration, healkits, and respite are unaffected.

Okay, cool beans!