Hexblade

[CosmicOrderV]

Played on PGCC.

While end game looks like it's in a good position... small dips, and near half-half spreads are sort of sad. Which is perhaps indicative of a problem the server will address in its future, but I digress.

Some classes like rogue, and blackguard, offer high incentives to dip. Monk too. Maybe these things aren't equally attractive, but generally speaking, it's nice when a class has something to offer at various milestones. This class seems to really suffer from not being attractive at all unless you really dedicate to it. Sort of that linear issue that folks have brought up before in regards to other classes, where there's really only one or two ways to play it competently. That sucks. More diversity the better. I'm not exactly sure how to fix this, but playing around did refine my views a bit.

GMW is a good call. Previously I didn't think so. It let's you stack with weapon curse. I thought all the scaling was 1+1/6, previously, which would looked better than it was. Instead it's just 1/6, which doesn't result in anything that impressive.

The familiar is still weird.

People clamoring for Dark Blessing's removal have some valid points, but if it did get removed, this class would be in a bad spot. It just doesn't have that much oomph or flair. It's all linearly scaling values.

Hex could probably be a swift action, or have a reduced cool-down. It's the only flair this class really gets, and i haven't seen it result in anything meaningful. Just a lil number crunch in your advantage. Sort of underwhelming. Compare to curse-song, which is way more impressive.

Spell book, and spell-slots available, both depressing. Until you invest heavily, these offer little of value that you couldn't get with wands or scrolls. Which goes back into the 'invest heavily' route being the only viable option.

Useful hex? Heavily invest. Good number of spells? Heavily invest. Useful weapon curse? Heavily invest. Don't have skill-points enough for UMD / Lore? Heavily invest so your spells are actually worthwhile. Want offensive spells that have a shot against SR? Heavily invest. It just all seems like half-measures towards balance, instead of offering something new to the equation.

I'd love to see things like...

• More spell versatility. Give them some clever spells. Identify. Find Traps. Knock. Glyph of Warding. Maybe more spell-slots. Maybe go up to 6th circle spells, instead of 4th. Maybe Spell Penetration feats at certain tiers (level 6, level 12, ect).
• Some way to curse those who hit you. An armor imbue that debuffs people when they strike you. Something like that.
• The ability more easily Hex in the middle of battle. Maybe something like, if you kill a Hex'ed target, it immediately comes off cool-down, could be cool. Or just making it a swift action.
• Trigger some unique ability when you slay a foe, suggesting you capture a little of their soul, to fuel your magic. It plays the animation used for death magics (white smokey soul leaving the body), and you gain temp HP equal to X times CHA bonus. Can't happen more than once every couple rounds (such a thing perhaps proc'ing off hex'ed targets).

Sort of reminds me of the shaman in that it just doesn't feel that unique or impressive (mechanically).

[Xerah]

I gotta say, I consider shaman to be one of the coolest classes on Arelith. It finally fills a really unique spot that I was wishing.

[Tarkus the dog]

I gave the class a test on the PGCC and it doesn't seem that OP as it may seem on the paepr. Some things are starting to make sense - but some tweaking is probably still needed.

You are limited when it comes to your choice for curses and hexes, so you'll probably end up with something like this:





You can trade the Curse of Blood for something else if you like, like Curse of Worms for anti-healing, but you'll need to be careful about hitting pretty much anything since Curse of Sacrifice will hurt a lot ( and frankly I wouldn't miss on this one, its pretty good ). Hexes are a no brainer AC, AB and skill hexes and the elemental decay is my top pick. Or you can grab positive/negative damage vulnerability one if you like, but with all the essences that you can slap on your weapon I opted for the elemental decay.

The AB is very good, 49 at 14 modifier and 50 at 15. The AC is lackluster, but you can grab blackguard levels if you like. The class struggles with feats if dipping blackguard, however, but taking human can more or less fix that. Dark blessing at level 2 is a tricky one. At one hand I'm not a fan of pure-classing since NWN is all about experimenting different class combinations, but at the other getting rid of dark blessing would make the blackguard dip pretty much the way to go. If anything, I would suggest getting rid of spellcrafting as a class skill at the very least, even though it makes sense entirely RP wise.

Okay, now here's the interesting part. Hex has a 3 minute cooldown and a pretty long cast range. However, there is no DC to it. I can see why does this make sense, since if the target passes the DC check - you can't hex them for another 3 minutes. But as it is, the target is hit with a massive debuff no matter what, and that's an issue. There has to be some counter play to this, but not at the cost of the Hex becoming entirely worthless. Defensive essences also do a solid work at blocking most of the damage from the vulnerability, and if you go STR based then you are simply too squishy. You could try something silly like dip into monk, but then you'll need to figure out what to do with your abilities.

Speaking of DCs, Curse of Draining should be probably given one, whether NEP prevents it or not. I understand it was made this way to give more benefits for going pure, but it's just not fun for the person being cursed.

It's not as OP as it may seem initially, but it does need some tweaking. Being hit by a -5 AB, AC, -10 skills debuff is no fun. I'm not sure if you can restore the hex and if you can than the hex is not very good. Like I said before, there is potential for a pretty fun class in here, just need some tinkering.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I wonder if the scaling and progression can be rejigged. While we're talking a lot about balance, I'm a little concerned about 'fun factor.'

You get Hex and Curse at level 6, but don't really get to make it unique until level 7. And then it's not until level 11 until you have the possibility of getting modified Hex and modified Curse.

To me, this seems really late in the class progression. What are you going to be doing until this point? You're like playing a less-interesting bard (mechanically) all the way until this point. The class really doesn't seem to pick up until epics, after you have 4 or 5 hexblade feats under your belt.

This touches on CosmicOrder's thing about the linearity and capstone design.

I am wondering if there is any way so you can get a Hex or a Curse right at level 3. Right when you're ready to begin. Or maybe level 4. I don't know how messed up scaling would be.

Maybe knock off the level 30 hexblade feat, bump everything down, and give them a different capstone (like some sort of master universal augmentation).

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I wonder if the scaling and progression can be rejigged. While we're talking a lot about balance, I'm a little concerned about 'fun factor.'

I think this is super important. Whether a class is consistently fun and interesting matters way more to most people, I think, than whether it's perfectly balanced in Lv30 PvP.

[Void]

I wonder if the scaling and progression can be rejigged. While we're talking a lot about balance, I'm a little concerned about 'fun factor.'

You get Hex and Curse at level 6, but don't really get to make it unique until level 7. And then it's not until level 11 until you have the possibility of getting modified Hex and modified Curse.

To me, this seems really late in the class progression. What are you going to be doing until this point? You're like playing a less-interesting bard (mechanically) all the way until this point. The class really doesn't seem to pick up until epics, after you have 4 or 5 hexblade feats under your belt.

This touches on CosmicOrder's thing about the linearity and capstone design.

I am wondering if there is any way so you can get a Hex or a Curse right at level 3. Right when you're ready to begin. Or maybe level 4. I don't know how messed up scaling would be.

Maybe knock off the level 30 hexblade feat, bump everything down, and give them a different capstone (like some sort of master universal augmentation).

This is a really good point. Trying to get an enchanter character to level 12 is quite a lot of hassle, and this is similar.

[CrystalRL]

It may be easier to level if the hexes were able to be swapped at every level up, much like how a sorcerer can swap spells. But that sounds insanely difficult to code...

[magistrasa]

Overall, the mechanics do seem to favor 3-4 level dips splashed in with high-investment, rather than the versatility of mixing and matching a class spread according to its features and bonus feats and unique elements that it brings to the table. Which makes it kinda impossible to mix in with multiclassing. If you were to chart out progression for the class, it'd look like a straight diagonal line from the bottom to the top. But for most classes, it's more of a staircase, with various plateaus at different intervals. Look at rogue, monk, fighter, and ranger. Those classes give you things that are as good as they'll ever be, and are good for basically anyone. Contrast that with the Hexblade's features, where in order to make use of them, you *have* to invest. Its strength is directly tied to its level, in ALL aspects.

The build-your-own-pizza model of class design that the Hexblade offers is a really interesting idea, but I wonder if it might be better to blend it with the design concept of set class milestones that so many other classes have. Cut down on the bonus feats and turn some hexes or curses into straight class features.
- Instead of the elemental curses, maybe at a certain level you just get something like a straight 2d4 elemental damage added to your melee attacks - hey, and maybe you can toggle what elemental damage it deals by using the -stream command. Alternatively, maybe it's a weird form of sneak attack that scales with an extra damage die every few levels. Far better and far more versatile for those who want to mix and match than 1 point of damage for every handful of Hexblade levels.
- Maybe the Curse of Worms can be its own separate ability or a spell in the Hexblade's spell list, so that a DC can be attached to it and it can be customized outside of the scaling model the rest of the curses have.
- Milestone feats like (and definitely not limited to these, I know they may not be especially balanced choices) Blindfight, Called Shot, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus, and maybe even Weapon Specialization? Not all of them of course, but just a few ideas.

Beyond that, I definitely agree that the curse takes too long to fire off and refresh. The idea that it comes off cooldown when your curse target dies is neat because it emulates the Hex spell in PnP. I am ambivalent towards the idea of making it call for a DC to affect someone - it's a good idea as it exists now, but I expect some changes will fall into place soon enough, and I don't think a DC will be necessary if it just gets tweaked a bit more.

[Scurvy Cur]

TBH, I wouldn't mind seeing the hex going off cooldown whenever the target dies either. A lot of my earlier concerns about the ability are alleviated by the cooldown, and letting the hex refresh whenever a target dies is both aesthetic af and ought to be a fairly big help in pve, allowing the hexblade to fill a target call role, without imbalancing the class too badly in PvP where kills take a little longer to happen.

Re: saving throws, I don't think one is necessary on hex. The cooldown is probably a sufficient limitation by itself. I think drain and worms curses definitely need one, or a rework though.

[Drowboy]

Agree with the above and it would be nice to have a visual indicator so allies know who to go after.

[Scurvy Cur]

I wonder if the scaling and progression can be rejigged. While we're talking a lot about balance, I'm a little concerned about 'fun factor.'

You get Hex and Curse at level 6, but don't really get to make it unique until level 7. And then it's not until level 11 until you have the possibility of getting modified Hex and modified Curse.

To me, this seems really late in the class progression. What are you going to be doing until this point? You're like playing a less-interesting bard (mechanically) all the way until this point. The class really doesn't seem to pick up until epics, after you have 4 or 5 hexblade feats under your belt.

This touches on CosmicOrder's thing about the linearity and capstone design.

I am wondering if there is any way so you can get a Hex or a Curse right at level 3. Right when you're ready to begin. Or maybe level 4. I don't know how messed up scaling would be.

Maybe knock off the level 30 hexblade feat, bump everything down, and give them a different capstone (like some sort of master universal augmentation).

This is actually a solid couple of ideas, but probably needs some refinement.

I like the idea of giving HB more abilities earlier, but I also like that staying pure offers two new hex/curse feats.

What I would consider doing is taking the level 26 feat and moving it to level 5. I would also suggest moving the level requirement for the hexes of decay and duality from 23 to 15, but pushing neglect up to requiring 23 levels (AC reduction is generally a far stronger damage amp than elemental vulnerabilities).

[CptJonas]

Ignoring the mechanical because its a hot mess, I'll focus on something else. And keep it succinct. This class' flavor seems almost entirely redundant with both blackguard and warlock, and to a lesser extent, spellblade itself. Why the time and effort for another slight variation on the spellblade edgelord angle?

I feel like it could be retooled to some kind of exalted mirror to give the good guys a new toy instead. Between Shadow Mage, Pale Master, Blackguard, Warlock, Assassin, and now Hexblade, you have every kind of evil you can want. Goods have...paladin. I don't count all the Harper stuff because its locked behind a DM permission thingy. We could use some balance and I'm disappointed at the missed opportunity here.

It gives us what many people...me included cryed for so long....actual paladin playstyle for evil guys...
Dont get me wrong..I am not speaking about RP....
I am talking about Full BAB half caster which buffes his weapon with +5 and gets saves from Cha....Evil guys lacked that playstyle...now they finaly get it....For me personaly...this class is dream come true..
I allways wanted Paladin playstyle but on evil character...and allways wanted Full BAB class with buff spells (haste,imp invis, animals)...
Now with this class I get both in single package with extra cool shit...

[Drowboy]

Yeah, hexblades niche in source is explicitly described as a non-good arcane paladin in design and feel.

And honestly? It's nice to have an evil class that isn't 'wizard, summoner, summoner, summoner, rogue.'

[the grim yeeter]

It gives us what many people...me included cryed for so long....actual paladin playstyle for evil guys...
Dont get me wrong..I am not speaking about RP....
I am talking about Full BAB half caster which buffes his weapon with +5 and gets saves from Cha....Evil guys lacked that playstyle...now they finaly get it....For me personaly...this class is dream come true..
I allways wanted Paladin playstyle but on evil character...and allways wanted Full BAB class with buff spells (haste,imp invis, animals)...
Now with this class I get both in single package with extra cool shit...

So a bardguard (not full bab, granted, but compensates with bard song) or ss/bg?

Whatever niche hexblade is meant to fill honestly eludes me.

[CosmicOrderV]

Call me crazy, but I brought this up a few years ago...

Not that anybody asked, but if it were up to me, blackguard would lose some key features (like dark blessing, turn undead, and one of their summons), and instead gains Hex (and hex augmenting feat selections--no weapon curses), along with a spell-book. Becomes a base class, and not a prestige class. The concepts do overlap too much between BG and Hexblade. I love the martial warlock / hex aesthetic, so ultimately I'll play it in whatever manifestation, but with cosmology in respect, it doesn't really make sense that two classes represent the same thing.

Then paladin then gets opened up to all alignments, its spells are CHA based, not wisdom. And its spell-book gets some new additions (maybe based on alignment). It gets access to both Smites (Evil/Good). CHA to saves is still based off CHA bonus, but is also capped by level investment (so a 3 level dip gives a max of +3, even with 20+ CHA). That's how you get your evil self-caster martial niche. It's not by 'mimicing' paladin, it's by playing paladin. Divine Might and Divine Shield always last 10 rounds, no more no less, no matter your CHA bonus, but the AC/Damage bonuses ought to be capped based on the Turner Level of your Turn Undead (which should be renamed Channel Divinity, or Channel Power, rather than Turn Undead). For reference, Turner Level as it pertains to Turn Undead.

All that said, I'm still happy to see the hex motif explored, just like I'm glad that the shaman motif has been explored. Just hope that they both get more flavorful mechanics!

[magistrasa]

I think I finally put my finger on why the class progression feels a bit off.

Core class features unlocked in epic levels.
Scaling based around the level 30 cap.
Footing found only in the early/mid-teens.

These are design elements that aren't present in any other class in NWN - because every other class is designed around a level 20 cap, with the epic levels typically only improving and scaling off of what you've already got. Sure, there are epic feats, but you don't need 21 levels in fighter to get Epic Weapon Specialization, and you don't need 21 levels in a caster class to get epic spells - they're always based off of total character level, or base stats, or BAB, or skill points, or feats. The fact that the heart of the class is typically achieved early on in levels 1-20 of the roadmap is what gives every other base class the multiclassing wiggle room they all have.

I think Hexblade could really benefit from another look-over with this angle in mind. Act as though there's only 20 levels available in the game - act as though another 10 levels after that are only meant to improve upon what you've already set up prior - and see how its design changes.

[Drowboy]

Low level stuff improving and it serving as a target caller are both ideas I'm really fond of, the latter especially because that's a kind of unique niche I like to see play out.

What about a hex or curse that heals allies when they deal damage to a tagged enemy? Gives them something unique to do that isn't, technically, a huge wrecking debuff.

All that said, I really think before this goes into the server proper it needs a really solid lore pass. It's already at odds enough, lore-wise, with every tabletop incarnation that it should probably just be given some custom Arelith lore. Otherwise, it's hard to reckon with them being more alignment restricted than warlocks. The class blurb suggests two apparently related concepts, one bolded, one italicized, here-

There are few powers darker than manipulation of the soul. Whether you use it to make a pact with a foul creature - demon, devil, or something else -, collect the souls of others to draw strength from, or twist your own soul into a corrupted mockery of the life it represented, it can be agreed that horrid powers are at play. The Hexblade is both an expert warrior and a practiced spellcaster, but their true power comes from the Hexes and Curses they use to both physically and mentally assail their opponents.

Okay, manipulating souls is bad. Hexblades are gishes with hexes. Connecting these might help to, uh, explain why this class is evil locked.

As for the ability descriptions- Editorializing them is probably uneccessary in the way they are, and they should definitely just be a detailed writeup of what the abilities do. Notably, the actual function of the abilities are obfuscated (how does hex work, do the curses stack, etc) in favor of how Big And Bad Frost Imbue Is.

[Xerah]

Whether you use it to make a pact with a foul creature - demon, devil, or something else -, collect the souls of others to draw strength from, or twist your own soul into a corrupted mockery of the life it represented, it can be agreed that horrid powers are at play.

The player of the hexblade is able to make the decision of where these powers come from; those listed are examples similar to that of the shaman. There is absolutely no lore issue whatsoever other than some reason to be extremely pedantic over it. Your character doesn't have sourcebooks, RP with the other player and find out. If the player is not RPing his Hexblade-ness, then the DMs will deal with as necessary.

[Void]

All that said, I really think before this goes into the server proper it needs a really solid lore pass. It's already at odds enough, lore-wise, with every tabletop incarnation that it should probably just be given some custom Arelith lore. Otherwise, it's hard to reckon with them being more alignment restricted than warlocks. The class blurb suggests two apparently related concepts, one bolded, one italicized, here-

There are few powers darker than manipulation of the soul. Whether you use it to make a pact with a foul creature - demon, devil, or something else -, collect the souls of others to draw strength from, or twist your own soul into a corrupted mockery of the life it represented, it can be agreed that horrid powers are at play. The Hexblade is both an expert warrior and a practiced spellcaster, but their true power comes from the Hexes and Curses they use to both physically and mentally assail their opponents.

Okay, manipulating souls is bad. Hexblades are gishes with hexes. Connecting these might help to, uh, explain why this class is evil locked.

There isn't really much lore about the class, as far as I can tell, and it doesn't even give impression of "soul manipulation".

Soul manipulation is BoVD stuff, but I"m not seeing it here. It is just "you get those abilities because reasons".

[The1Kobra]

Getting back to the extant mechanics,..

Currently, it's possible to front load on curses and ignore the hexes, or vice versa. Though with the hexes being a single target ability usable once every 3 minutes, I could see more attraction given to front loading the curses. Stack up the fire, cold, elec, acid, sonic, and pos/neg hexes (that or scrap 2 of the prior and pick up the magic one and healing one, so it can't be hosed by DR), and you can get insane damage while ignoring a big part of the class. I think there should be some design incentive to get both, or perhaps make it so that they get seperate picks for the hexes and curses.

I also think it would be a good idea to limit the number of active curses/hexes they can use at the same time, maybe re-balance around that. Maybe 1 curse available at first, getting 2 at L16, and 3 at L26, or some other spread. The hexes could operate on a similar scale, making them pick and choose between them. The hexblade would then need to make some tactical decisions as to what curses to take when they curse their weapon for the day, as spellswords have to. Naturally if that's done then the individual curses/hexes may need rebalancing.

I'd like the hexing to be more a thing, though, with maybe a bit more flash and flare. I'd recommend giving the hexing at L1, but tie it off to a DC (the PnP DC should do, 10+1/2 Hexblade level+CHA mod, though we could just make it 10+hexblade level if we want to not overly benefit CHA on Hexblades.). I'd also make it uses/day, with maybe a cooldown. 1 use/day + 1 per 4 levels with 1 hex recharging every 10 minutes should be nice, with perhaps higher level hexblades reducing the cooldown.
You could also offer for the pure hexblades, to make such an AoE at L28.

Lastly, I think the skills should be brought down to 2/level. Given their theme and other benefits, an abundance of skills doesn't fit the class. With 14 and human these have pretty much any skills they could possibly want, so no need to pick and choose what's most important as many characters (fighter, WM, BG, paladin builds, etc). have to.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

My initial thoughts-

-Level drain needs to have a save, but sounds like you are already on that.

-The saves bonus is fine, if it didn't exist you would just GURANTEE that everyone splashes blackguard instead of it being just one of the options for a splash. You might think "hey but you don't need to splash" but if saves get added to the level drain the level 28 hexer goes from optimal to pointless.

-Damage seems ok, since as has been pointed out essences will erase most of it in pvp. It's a real step down from the damage dealers on the server, which is a fine trade off for the spells.

-the no heal for six seconds sounds really scary at first glance, but really running away for a round if you need to is no big deal. this one I would need to see in action some to be sure, but I actually think its fine as is.

-the spells are nice since it will save you some coin, but its nothing a supercharged save warrior couldn't do with scrolls on a minimum lore investment. The enchantment spells have the potential to be scary, but really the dcs are going to be way below passible.

-giving a class like this a pocket rogue in pixie might be the other thing that needs looking at. Depends on how you feel about a fighter class having access to every chest on the server basically on their own.

all in all, I think its a lot more balanced then its getting credit for right now, at least when stacked up against something like a Fighter/cot/wm which is what I consider to be one of the two premier melee builds so far (26/7 pally 3/4 x being the other).

[the grim yeeter]

In response to the lastest hexblade update: the curse of worms duration of 3 seconds is still way too long. People underestimate how long 3 seconds is in PvP. That's 1.5 flurries of not being able to use gresto or heal pots, so about 3 attacks by your attacker (and more if they are a monk) without being able to use any healing other than kits. And that's assuming you're only attacked by the hexblade him/herself. And before the inevitable response of "just run for 3 seconds lmao" comes in: you cannot run from ranged attacks and spells.

I personally think the ability shouldn't even exist in the first place, but if you really want to keep it, then it should have a duration shorter than 3 seconds, for sure.

[Void]

In response to the lastest hexblade update: the curse of worms duration of 3 seconds is still way too long. People underestimate how long 3 seconds is in PvP. That's 1.5 flurries of not being able to use gresto or heal pots, so about 3 attacks by your attacker (and more if they are a monk) without being able to use any healing other than kits. And that's assuming you're only attacked by the hexblade him/herself.

I personally think the ability shouldn't even exist in the first place, but if you really want to keep it, then it should have a duration shorter than 3 seconds, for sure.

3 seconds is half a round. Should be 6 seconds or nothing.

[the grim yeeter]

3 seconds is half a round.

Yes. That's what I just said: 1.5 flurries.

Remove curse / mojo potions remove the Curse of Worms effect

Also, what is the point to this? By the time you've used your mojo potion, the CoW effect already ran out anyway.

And does CoW (and the other hexblade abilities) still not have a save, or am I missing something?

[Void]

3 seconds is half a round.

Yes. That's what I just said: 1.5 flurries.

I know. However the game is sorta round based, despite being quasi-realtime, and feels odd to have abilities that work on smaller time unit than round.

If the PW was running on unreal engine, sure.