Hexblade

[Opustus]

The hex coming off of cooldown upon killing the hexed target is a very nice touch! I appreciate the planned frontloading a lot for the sake of versatility.

[Gee look who]

Ok, going live was a bit premature, but I think it is fine.

I liked what you did Garrbear. Love the class, and the fixes are good for me.
(Removing the limitation to the extra damage being added only to the hexed target)

The class lacks some flavor/rp toys though.
Would it be possible to use streams to change the visual effect of the weapon?

Also, is it possible to have some unique familiars? (I'm guessing all hexblades will have a fey familiar like most wizards and sorcerers)

[DM Rex]

The class is live so,

my watch has ended

feel free to debate more of the random flavors, details, and whatever else about the hexblade you don't like now.

[Aren]

A slight bug: Currently the blade curses persist even through trading.

[Jagel]

Will the fully documented features find their way to the wiki soon pretty pweeease? *innocent batting of lashes*

[garrbear758]

Will the fully documented features find their way to the wiki soon pretty pweeease? *innocent batting of lashes*

I don't do anything on the wiki, but here you go.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tan ... p=drivesdk

[garrbear758]

A slight bug: Currently the blade curses persist even through trading.

I am aware lol. That was me. Ill have a fix out soon.

[Jagel]

Thanks

[Anachorn]

Hi,
First of all this seems like a really cool new class and I look forward to trying it out!

a few comments:

"Curse of Sacrifice (Requires 23 Hexblade) - Your cursed weapon deals 4 magic damage, +2 at levels 22, 25, and 28. You receive half the damage to yourself. This damage is not multiplied on a critical hit."
this seems like a mistake, I'm guessing it can just be +6 at 23 and an extra +2 at 25 and 28?

Regarding the curse of Hypocrisy, this seems great for PvE but very weak in PvP, assuming every PC has 5/- defensive essence of each type you won't pass the damage reduction on both of them which will make it inferior to the elemental ones, I would suggest just making it +10 negative energy, the extra 2 damage can be explained lore wise since the hex is more attuned to negative energy and balance wise since Negative Energy Protection protects against it. (I assume it does, if not just +8 negative is enough)

Now, about the hexes, just a thought, but what if you will have 0 or 1 round cooldown on casting them, but they can only be cast on a single target at a time so casting it again removes the previous cast?

It will be give the hex a very unique mechanic IMO, where you switch your curse to the target you are attacking when soloing and will allow some nice tactics when fighting as a group, such as weakening the target which is most dangerous, and add incentives to coordination between group members on who to attack.

This will also allow making the curses stronger and/or work only against the hex target since in PvP if someone runs away you just switch the hex to someone else.

Finally, I tested it with dual weapons in the PGCC and it seems to cast only on the main hand weapon if you use two weapons, unless its a two handed weapon in which case it adds the bonus on both hands with same amount of damage.

Is this the intended behavior? this makes two bladed weapons a better choice than two separate weapons for the hexblade since the curses do 100% damage on both hands instead of nothing on the off hand, which will limit weapon diversity if you want to fight dual handed.

I'm particularly concerned about 23/4/3 hex/fighter/monk or 26/4 hex/monk which would use a quarterstaff and get monk BAB, having 9 attacks (with haste), this seems too optimal mechanic wise and a bit absurd lore wise, but we will likely see many of those as it currently stands.

[The1Kobra]

I've thought of Hexblade/monk, stacked with a lot of the element curses. It can do a lot of damage. The main problem is you're looking at needing literally every stat on that build, and if you don't get enough dex/wis it will be lacking AC. If you decide to just skip AC you're looking at a glass cannon build, which can still be hosed by enemies with a lot of DR and/or a damage shield. I suppose you could try something like Hexblade/BG/monk, but that's even worse on managing all of those stats.

I found the BG splash was a lot more effective, it synnergizes the CHA bonus, and gets you good AC and damage.

Mind you, as it currently stands, assuming it all works the way I think it does, the class is great for 1v1 combat and against bosses, but rather lackluster against multiple opponents. PvE it's a lot less powerful now, which is a good thing since frontloading on all the damage curses would have made it way too powerful in PvE if it could hit anything.

Since the hex is on cooldown you're essentially looking at hexing only 1 target per fight. After downing them you're essentially just a fighter without bonus feats and a few spells until it recharges.

[CrystalRL]

Hex has a 1 minute uptime, 2 minute downtime. So yes, definitely not something you can keep up constantly unless you have a cabal of hexers.

Conceptually, entangle or web needs to be added to their spellbook, as they lack a way to target reflex saves, and tripping a target is pretty annoying.

[CosmicOrderV]

Something I find strange is how spell-craft was removed, despite it being perfectly thematic (to a degree, GMW as well). Really seems like it was only done that way in an effort to not make blackguard the go-to dip, which in-of-itself seems like a backwards motivation. No spellcraft because Dark Blessing, and Dark Blessing because less BG dips. This class is an arcane spell-caster. "Practiced (arcane) spell-caster," as the description claims.

Wizard? Spellcraft. Spellsword? Spellcraft. Bards? Spellcraft. Warlocks? Spellcraft. Sorcerers? Spellcraft. Palemaster does too, but that's weird hybrid that deserves its own discussion. Arcane casters, as the (perhaps hobbyist) scientists and theoretical physicists of the magic community, not understanding what actually comprises a spell (spellcraft), seems a bit strange (as opposed to divine casters, being more faith/empathy based).

Look at monk, for example. Constantly getting changed so as to not create gross power building possibilities. Yet for some reason, when it comes to class mechanics that offer CHA to saves and Turn Undead? Nah. Bend over backwards to preserve those mechanics, at the cost of making entire classes subpar or thematically inconsistent.

Why not just get rid of the Dark Blessing (at least from Hexblade), give it back Spellcraft, and then amp up its DI %'s that scale with level?

"But clerics/favored souls/druids/shamans get spellcraft, and they aren't arcane!" Yeah, but they're dedicated casters. You don't have a core feature of who you are (your class, and its emphasis on spell casting) not influence your understanding of the world. After a certain point, so much time spent slinging high level spells would be a really solid justification to learn about the dynamics at play. Lesser divine casters don't get spell-craft, because while they may use some spells, it's not at a depth that in-and-of-itself warrants the opportunity to learn spellcraft (this is why multi-classing exists). Paladin. Blackguard (if viewed as the anti-paladin). Ranger. Divine Champion. None of these get spellcraft. In exchange, they tend to get CHA to saves, or saving throw bonuses (eg Divine Champion).

"But Hexblades are martial / don't get high level spells! They shouldn't get spellcraft." Warlocks and bards don't get high level spells, but they get spellcraft. And really, the only way to competently build a bard, is by making it martial. Spellsword is martial as well. They all still get spellcraft. Isn't Hexblade heavily influenced by the martial warlock archetype? They cast this entirely unique spell (Hex) and can imbue their weapon like a Spellsword.

"It's for balance purposes. Like you have pointed out: spellcraft + CHA to saves is a bit broken." It's balance at the cost of inconsistent themes, and therefore a less immersive setting. Is that a balance worth striving for? Is that what Arelith is about?

[Baron Saturday]

I feel like not having spellcraft simply puts hexblades on par with ranger and paladin, both of which have similarly limited spellbooks.

Regarding hexblade/monk, I'd probably do something along the lines of str 10/dex 18/con12/int 14/wis 10/cha 16 after gifts. Could shuffle wis/cha/con around a bit. With a quarterstaff, you'd end up with a hefty number of attacks that do a good chunk of damage, especially once you've got curse of sacrifice.

Regarding this:

Mind you, as it currently stands, assuming it all works the way I think it does, the class is great for 1v1 combat and against bosses, but rather lackluster against multiple opponents. PvE it's a lot less powerful now, which is a good thing since frontloading on all the damage curses would have made it way too powerful in PvE if it could hit anything.

Since the hex is on cooldown you're essentially looking at hexing only 1 target per fight. After downing them you're essentially just a fighter without bonus feats and a few spells until it recharges.

The hex cooldown resets when the hexed target dies.

[CosmicOrderV]

I feel like not having spellcraft simply puts hexblades on par with ranger and paladin, both of which have similarly limited spellbooks.

"But Hexblades are martial / don't get high level spells! They shouldn't get spellcraft."

[Baron Saturday]

I feel like not having spellcraft simply puts hexblades on par with ranger and paladin, both of which have similarly limited spellbooks.

"But Hexblades are martial / don't get high level spells! They shouldn't get spellcraft."

I disagree with the idea that warlock/bard spellcasting is comparable to paladin/ranger/hexblade spellcasting.

[CosmicOrderV]

Are there differences between arcane and divine spellcasting? I guess if there isn't, then you're likely right, and comparing arcane concepts-and-mechanics to divine concepts-and-mechanics is a valid argument. If that's the case, I'll just see myself out.

[The1Kobra]

PnP hexblades have spellcraft as a class skill. Thematically I think it's fitting for them to have it. Balance wise, it just means a choice of splashing bard instead of rogue thematically, they can get a pixie anyways, so the only real big loss doing that is in 2d6 sneak attack and evasion for spellcraft.

I think they ought to keep it. On the other hand, reducing their skills to 2/level would have to make hexblades far more careful with their skill picks regardless of what class skills they have.

[Baron Saturday]

I'm just saying that hexblades, mechanically, have much more in common with classes that don't get spellcraft (paladin and ranger) than those that do. Arcane v divine is not something I considered at all.

[garrbear758]

Spellcraft + dark blessing: Saves are stupidly high with very little effort
Spellcraft w/o dark blessing: Hexblade / bg becomes the only reasonable build due to the above
Dark blessing w/o spellcraft: Reasonably high saves with less blackguard synergy to encourage build diversity

[CosmicOrderV]

I suppose disregarding theme and immersion is the norm after all, then.

I'm just saying that hexblades, mechanically, have much more in common with classes that don't get spellcraft (paladin and ranger) than those that do. Arcane v divine is not something I considered at all.

I suppose sacrificing theme and cosmology for the sake of mechanics, is in fact the norm, then. Saying so yourself.

Spellcraft + dark blessing: Saves are stupidly high with very little effort
Spellcraft w/o dark blessing: Hexblade / bg becomes the only reasonable build due to the above
Dark blessing w/o spellcraft: Reasonably high saves with less blackguard synergy to encourage build diversity

That sounds like a problem with Blackguard, not Hexblade

[Nitro]

Hexblades on Arelith have very little in common with P&P Hexblades. If the class was renamed something else edgy like soulblade, would you still think it was a sacrifice of theme and immersion? Does the name Hexblade to you mean "This class should have spellcraft" more than anything else?

[CosmicOrderV]

Because something (Arelith Hexblade) is unlike a thing (“PnP Hexblade”) that means thematic consistency is not important? Sorry if that comes across as snarky, but the logic (if it’s meant as a justification) seems absent.

The problem I would think a roleplay server should inherently have with this sort of thing isn’t that it doesn’t conform to a very specific ‘Thing’ -- but that it doesn’t conform to *anything*. It seems to lack consistency, in and of itself, even in relation to Arelith cosmology. Now, insofar that Arelith heavily bases its cosmology on the Forgotten Realms, that does give a pretty good guide as to what one can expect, but as with all good D&D, homebrew happens

So renaming the class has nothing to do with it. Let’s call it the Spaghetti Blade. If Spaghetti blade is an [arcane] caster class, and [arcane] casters occupy and represent a certain niche/genre of character, then why is the Spaghetti Blade not adhering to said genre/niche like all the rest? In by not having it do so, it makes it hard to create compelling stories around these mechanics. It’s not that compelling stories *can’t* be made, it’s just that creating compelling stories based around the mechanics of one’s classes becomes very flippant and meaningless, because there’s no inherent narrative.

And narrative is what we should be all about!

[Baron Saturday]

That's a fine argument, and I sympathize with it, but that still leaves us in a place where hexblades have an unhealthy amount of mechanical power. My own preference would be for hexblades to keep spellcraft and lose dark blessing, but garrbear has pointed out the problem with that.

I get that you think the change should happen on the blackguard end - frankly, I may even agree - but that argument has been hashed out many times in other threads to no result, and I think that having it here as well would be pretty counterproductive.

[CosmicOrderV]

C'est la vie, I suppose. You have a pretty damn good point.

Here's hoping that future friction will see us through!

[Bees in Space]

Not sure whether to put this here or in bug reports, but curse of acid currently doesn't kill trolls, and I'm assuming the same is true of curse of flame.

On an entirely unrelated note, using an alchemist's fire on a cursed weapon will cancel the red weapon vfx after the fire wears off.