Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

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SilverSnake
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Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by SilverSnake » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:34 pm

Playing a dedicated arcane evoker its not hard to see how the spell focus in that school loses a lot compared to others when high circle magic comes into play . Spell Focus Evocation increases DC on spells while the best evocation spells dont have the saves in the first place. Best evocation spells can be used to huge effect no matter if someone has the focus or not. Evocation is in my opinion a very dedicated school (generally lacking summons or death magic , past the Divine Implosion of course). A school dedicated to one thing , damage. I would suggest doing a simmiliar with like with Transmutation Focus and the spell Inferno. Adding damage to at least the best evocation spells (those lacking saves) , or just in general. I know Hellball exists but it requrires 3 focus feats and one epic feat for a one cast of 40d6 with a short knockdown . Most other schools add way more than just DC for spells which is not really the good thing about evocation as the best spells in the school lack saves anyway . Adding even /some/ damage like with Transmutation and the Inferno spell i would consider a good change. Illusion gets rp tricks on top of death magic and summons such as shadows , nercromancy gets summons and death magic , divination grants many useful rp tricks and death magic . Transmutation gets teleports , better zoo spells and Flesh To Stone which is close to being death magic. My general premise with this post is to point out how little benefit it is to get evocation focus compared to the rest of the schools. An evoker needs one extra epic feat used to even benefit from the Epic School Focus. Its the only school taxed in such a way . The other schools have many benefits without the need of using another epic feat. Evocation in its current state can be used /almost/ exactly as well by someone without the spell focus and it grants little benefit past the DC.

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garrbear758
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by garrbear758 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:38 pm

1. Bigby 6 and 9 are two of the best CC spells in the game.

2. Great thunderclap is a fantastic cc as it targets all 3 saves

3. Hellball is a hell of a good spell and is worth the investment

4. Other schools need the extra perks because they don't give you the above
Edited for grammar, probably

chris a gogo
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:53 pm

There is also prismatic spray which is a death spell that isn't stopped by shadow shield.

The school now has mordenken's sword which is totally magic immune meaning you can hammer maxed ice storms on an area while it tanks the spawns without hitting it.

And as mentioned above has the best CC spells in bigby's and great thunder clap, there is also bewildering cloud and incendiary cloud, the latter blinds as well and massive damage, also dark bolt which when used on an area rather than single target can daze or slow up to 7 targets per casting.

There are alot of very effective spells to use that need the DC's high.

SilverSnake
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by SilverSnake » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:55 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:38 pm
1. Bigby 6 and 9 are two of the best CC spells in the game.

2. Great thunderclap is a fantastic cc as it targets all 3 saves

3. Hellball is a hell of a good spell and is worth the investment

4. Other schools need the extra perks because they don't give you the above
Hellball is easily outclassed in terms of damage by someone with one metamagic feat (or without one even) , not to mention the number of casts and not having a need to use the epic feat. I guess the very short kd is what makes its so "hellish". Hellball is just terrible in terms of damage as it takes a whole round to cast.

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Party in the forest at midnight
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Evocation is something people take for PvP. To the extent that it's considered a "must have" by people who do optimal builds. I get made fun of for not taking it on my wizard by the optimal crew.

Nitro
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Nitro » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:31 pm

SilverSnake wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:55 pm
Hellball is easily outclassed in terms of damage by someone with one metamagic feat (or without one even) , not to mention the number of casts and not having a need to use the epic feat. I guess the very short kd is what makes its so "hellish". Hellball is just terrible in terms of damage as it takes a whole round to cast.
Hellball is an integral spell to most arcane caster PvP, when a melee gets up in your face, a self-targeted hellball goes off instantly without the otherwise long animation, giving you a much needed way to knock someone down, giving you time to get distance, pop gsanc, timestop, nuke harder etc. It also enables nifty combos like the Timestop>2xIGMS>Hellball>Gruin to finish someone off with relative safety.

So, evocation is far from weak. It's just not fancy like the other schools are because it's mechanically strong.

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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by garrbear758 » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:35 pm

Nitro wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:31 pm
So, evocation is far from weak. It's just not fancy like the other schools are because it's mechanically strong.
Repeating for emphasis
Edited for grammar, probably

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Diegovog
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Diegovog » Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:23 am

Mechanically in a good spot. Wouldn't mind a flavor bonus to focus! Same for enchantment.

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Security_Blanket
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Security_Blanket » Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:19 pm

I'm all for adding flavor to spell schools, but Evocation is by far the most established spell school in NWN. Most if not all of the best damage and disabling spells can be found in that one school. I can think of other spell schools that could use some attention more than Evocation.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 pm

I wouldnt mind if evocation had some epic command that is purely RP focused and has no affect on balance. Everything you get from this school is increased damage(?), DCs increase and no biteback on epic spells. All purely numbers adjusted on things the character can do without it.
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Flower Power
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Flower Power » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:48 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 pm
I wouldnt mind if evocation had some epic command that is purely RP focused and has no affect on balance. Everything you get from this school is increased damage(?), DCs increase and no biteback on epic spells. All purely numbers adjusted on things the character can do without it.
I mean, yes. Evocation is the "I make things explode" school.

It's the big blunt stick of magic: these are suitable and fitting perks for Evokers.
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AstralUniverse
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by AstralUniverse » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:53 pm

Flower Power wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:48 pm
AstralUniverse wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:05 pm
I wouldnt mind if evocation had some epic command that is purely RP focused and has no affect on balance. Everything you get from this school is increased damage(?), DCs increase and no biteback on epic spells. All purely numbers adjusted on things the character can do without it.
I mean, yes. Evocation is the "I make things explode" school.

It's the big blunt stick of magic: these are suitable and fitting perks for Evokers.
I mostly just meant that I dont see any new abilities unlocked by being an epic evoker. You just get much better at what you can already do. its not bad or anything, just doesnt have a cool feature like -ward. I dont think anything needs to change and if something were to be added, I'd hope it would be harmless in pvp... because its a really good school already.
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Ninjimmy
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Ninjimmy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:13 am

It would be nice to have an RP ribbon like being able to toss out no damage fireballs as "Fireworks" but mechanically it's pretty solid.
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Dr. B
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Dr. B » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:37 am

Evo focus is quite strong. Where it's a bit lackluster is on divine casters who don't have a useful range of evocation spells compared to arcane casters, although a Gruinball it works nicely in conjunction with Death Domain Harm, provided your foe isn't immune to the latter, which isn't hard to do with a potion of warding. Not sure whether it affects the Arelith-specific DCs for Word of Faith, though it would be nice if it did.

It would be nice to have some of the druid and cleric's evocation spells (like call lightning, firestorm, and sunbeam) beefed up a bit so as to be actually useful.

Amnesy
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Amnesy » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:45 am

Bigby 6 and 9 are two of the best CC spells in the game.
Bigbys are great. I lean towards 6 being the most powerful of them on Arelith (as you can't ward against knockdown with freedom).
There is also prismatic spray which is a death spell that isn't stopped by the shadow shield.
The spell has 50/50 chance to be useful, with 1/7 to be the death effect, this makes it somewhat unreliable unless you already control the encounter, at which point you could really use anything.
Then there is the 'implosion' which I think pierce the shadow shield as well.
Other schools need the extra perks because they don't give you the above
I do think each school has something nice.
Dominating strong foes; single spells ending fights. Summons, protection, and utility.

This is where I have mixed feelings about Hellball ESF Evo relation. (Even Hellball itself IMO should be back to purely elemental damage, while G.Ruin to force).

ESF feels more like a prerequisite (optional at that if you are a healer) to another 'feat(s)' which are used only for combat
ESFs add RP tools to other schools that already have RP potential in their kit.
Evocation is combat centric and I think it would be nice to have considered having ESF adding something to RP with.
Additionally, GSF does not grant any RP cookie as well.

Evocation is Force, Elemental Energy, and Motion, and it has utility in p'n'p, an example being the 'Sending' spell (our wisp) being actually evocation.
Or 'Elminster's Evasion' which is basically like a teleport but to a single pre-determined spot.

By all means, I am no saying evocation is lacking potency at PvX, it lacks RP cookies.
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Lexx
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Lexx » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:33 pm

One of the best foci you can have as noted above. Some RP flavor would be fun. But it's not really desperately in need of new mechanical cookies. And I say that having played a lot of evokers.

Exordius
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Exordius » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:55 pm

Definitely agree divine classes, especially cleric need more spells and attack ones in particular. The planned divine spell and domain overhaul should go a long way to fixing that when it finally is implemented.

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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:08 pm

Edit. I just realized I misread the prior poster SO, I'll only keep this part of my reply:

I actually do think some purely RP-flavored ability for Evocation Focus would be fun. The idea of being able to shoot off a fireworks display sounds really amusing, and could even lead to collaborative social events for various settlements to host on IG holidays.
Last edited by Bunnysmack on Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thalion
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Thalion » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:53 pm

As someone who mains a true flame, I just wanted to toss in my perspective. Evocation can be a powerful school for battlefield control, and getting your DCs high (gobbling up those evo foci) help tremendously. Beyond just yeeting out damage, evocation can be a powerful control school, you can place down firewalls for kiting an open area, drop an incendiary cloud on a mage or archer at huge range to blind them. And never underestimate gust of wind, aside from its offensive power to KD people, it disperses cloud effects.

I find Evocation to be an amazingly powerful school, once you stop thinking of it as only to slap things with.

also, from the perspective of a true flamer, i would absolutely love RP cookies, aoe light spell to troll the underdark? or maybe to lighten/darken an area temporarily? or perhaps a passive practical effect, like esf evo granting an extra 5% harvest chance on resources? i dont know, but cookies are great.

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Hunter548
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 am

Honestly, the various -commands should just become regular spells and adjusted as necessary from there. It'd solve this issue (and the semi-frequent requests for necromancy to get a -command), it'd help the disparity between spontaneous vs non-spontaneous casters, it'd open up design space as far as adding feats and classes to take as a mage, and it'd making balancing the focuses against each other easier.
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:36 am

Hunter548 wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 3:02 am
Honestly, the various -commands should just become regular spells and adjusted as necessary from there. It'd solve this issue (and the semi-frequent requests for necromancy to get a -command), it'd help the disparity between spontaneous vs non-spontaneous casters, it'd open up design space as far as adding feats and classes to take as a mage, and it'd making balancing the focuses against each other easier.
I have been thinking this for a while now too. Especially since some of them, like scry, are technically a lowish level spell unless I am off my rocker (which is possible).

But the idea of not having to take a few feats for a special cookie which is basically just a spell would be nice.

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Ninjimmy
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Ninjimmy » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:48 am

... Guys, the point of them being there is to reflect a character developing their speciality.

You get the cookie because you ate your vegetables by taking spell focus feats like a good caster.
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Bunnysmack » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:09 pm

Also would like to point out that the so-called "disparity between spontaneous and nonspontaneous casters" in this situation is really actually a comparison of "wizard and Sorcerer," because outside of that class comparison, other non-spontaneous casters do not get bonus magic feats.

Wizard gets a ton more RP/utility features, but sorcerer with their damned divine dip builds are freakin' powerhouses with obscene amounts of saves, pale master degrees of AC, and let's not forget that the ability to spontaneous cast itself is an extremely potent ability, especially when paired with meta magic and being able to cast more spells per-circle, per-day.

The benefits of the -command abilities are more easily obtained via wizard, sure, but sorcerers are NOT in a bad place at all.
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Hunter548
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:48 pm

Ninjimmy wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:48 am
... Guys, the point of them being there is to reflect a character developing their speciality.

You get the cookie because you ate your vegetables by taking spell focus feats like a good caster.
Not much of a specialty when every wizard can get half of the -commands without any real sacrifice, and almost every sorcerer can get a full third of them as well.

You can keep a reflection of specialization by making the DCs or CLs of the new system relevant, as well.
Bunnysmack wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:09 pm
Also would like to point out that the so-called "disparity between spontaneous and nonspontaneous casters" in this situation is really actually a comparison of "wizard and Sorcerer," because outside of that class comparison, other non-spontaneous casters do not get bonus magic feats.

Wizard gets a ton more RP/utility features, but sorcerer with their damned divine dip builds are freakin' powerhouses with obscene amounts of saves, pale master degrees of AC, and let's not forget that the ability to spontaneous cast itself is an extremely potent ability, especially when paired with meta magic and being able to cast more spells per-circle, per-day.

The benefits of the -command abilities are more easily obtained via wizard, sure, but sorcerers are NOT in a bad place at all.
You took the opposite meaning from what I intended. My point was that, on Arelith, sorcerers are significantly more useful and stronger than non-wild mage wizards and always have been. You see the same dichotomy with favored souls and clerics; the sole thing that keeps clerics viable over FS right now are death domain harm, protection domain, healer path, and the extremely rare charisma battle cleric. Otherwise, favored soul does everything you want a cleric to do but better.
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Diegovog
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Re: Evocation Magic And its Spell Focus.

Post by Diegovog » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:37 pm

There are many situations in which even non wild mage wizards are better than sorcerers. People who made both sorcerers and wizards know how much you have to give up in order to play sorcerer. If you go heavy AC that means you go both paly/bg and a tumble dip class, which means your CL will take a huge blow as well as forcing you to invest in still spell. You will maybe have 1 metamagic. It will also greatly hurt the AB/AC of your summons.
If you go DC sorcerer you won't have the variety in spell foci. You will have two, maybe three if you're feeling brave giving up everything else and being a DC mage it's really important to be able to transition between abjuration/enchantment/illusion/evo for crowd control.
And the skills, it's such a huge pain to choose which ones to invest. Being both skill and feat starved is not fun.
Sorcerers shine in 1v1, 2v2 maybe. Where they can spam IGMS and can reliably counter spell. Outside of that wizards not only get better but also are much more fun to play. It's no coincidence that in the last player count there were 121 wizards + 61 wild mages and only 51 sorcerers + 73 true flamers.

Without derailing the topic too much, it would be great to have more flavor to all the foci which don't have. But I'm sure the devs have much in their hands right now. Nobody is blaming them for not offering more cookies to mages.

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