Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators

AstralUniverse
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:37 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:48 am
Of course people are giving feedback that it's not as useful as it was; there is now a cooldown when before you could just do it unlimited before. It's objectively less time that you are able to do it. So, that's not a surprise. The cooldown isn't going anywhere though.

It's bonkers to me that scrying for 2 minutes out of every 10 minutes is said to be useless. I just completely, wholeheartedly, and fundamentally disagree. I think scry warding is on a lot of people's minds now, as this seems to be a weekly topic to discuss.

It really doesn't matter what a "PnP mage" can do or how low of level scry is in PnP. In PnP you scry vs an NPC while a DM holds your hand. This is not the case in a persistent world.

The one thing that I did want to add was a 5% chance to break through scry blocking wards but that got shot down.
Really glad to read all of this, including the last part.

Also, is the anti-scry bard mechanic really that problematic? It basically saves some consumables, and if we're talking about it's utility for *really* large parties then we can assume such a large party has one or probably more than one abjurer.
Former Characters: Kirk Senner, Lorian Darkmoon, Rayne Mashavelle, Arkin Abellan, Ryth Ellaniar, Storm Kel Abu'adir, Edros Mashavelle.

Aelryn Bloodmoon
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1808
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:18 am

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 pm
Scrying is a horrible, low-effort spy mechanic that absolutely dunks on mundanes. Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class. I have absolutely no idea where "it's bad for information gathering" comes from, you're just doing it wrong and not learning your targets. Even now I hear reports of scry-gathered intelligence. Prior to the nerf, the people who were good at it brought in a *lot* of information.
This entire argument comes across as condescending at worst and disingenuous at best. Prior to the nerf, you didn't have to be "good at it," you just spammed the hell out of it in combination with drinking tons of alcohol. So of course, that brought in a lot of information. That's not, really, in my opinion, a good benchmark for the new scry, other than to say that the old version was ridiculously able to be abused and needed a change.

This isn't a case of "git gud scrub," it's a statistical fact- despite the prevalence of internet media in the world today, typing 50-60 words a minute is still a very high benchmark; in the US, you can get a clerical job that pays well over minimum wage by typing 45 words a minute.

The current average WPM speed of the world is 41.4 words/minute. This equals a total of 82.8 words in the roughly two minutes allotted to a scry, assuming your target does nothing but hammer away on their keys for the entire duration of your spell and completes their emote and hits enter before time expires. (For the record, this paragraph makes up a total of 75 words, including what's in these parenthesis.)

The previous paragraph also, I'm fairly certain, exceeds the maximimum character limit for a single post in NWN without using wordpad shenanigans, cutting into the two minutes you have to successfully post something before the scry wears off.

Please explain to the rest of us how, without metagaming or being exceedingly lucky, you're supposed to "learn your target" to make efficient use of your two pre-epic feats and epic feat under that kind of restriction?

It's not completely useless- but claiming it's amazing or even above sub-par blatantly ignores a boatload of facts to push an opinionated narrative that mundanes are helpless against it when they're anything but since the UMD/Lore change. And if you aren't running lore in the current meta, shouldn't you be the one "just getting better at it?"

Like I said- I accept the old version needed a change. I even accept that it needs to be a careful balancing act to not give scrying too much usefulness. But I also think that ignoring the fact that being in an area transition eliminates your two out of ten minutes worth of scrying down to zero of ten minutes based on an entirely OOC circumstance is putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "I'm not listening to reason," when there are plenty of slow typists out there who render the feat useless through no fault or malice of their own other than not being a faster typist.

I wasn't interested in scrying before, and I'm less so, now. I can accept that may be the design goal, but telling people it's great is anecdotal and ignores hard, statistical fact.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002

-XXX-
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:05 am

Xerah wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:48 am
It's bonkers to me that scrying for 2 minutes out of every 10 minutes is said to be useless. I just completely, wholeheartedly, and fundamentally disagree. I think scry warding is on a lot of people's minds now, as this seems to be a weekly topic to discuss.
I don't think it's useless and personally don't mind the way scrying works right now, however I can see where people who do argue that are coming from.
Aerlyn summed it up very accurately in the above post - even with 2 min duration, you can consider yourself to be fortunate to get 1-2 sentences out of a conversation - assuming that you know precisely who to scry and when!
To further support this, there's another thread by Hazard which I find to be consistent with my own experience.
That being said, this is usually a lot of information still - particularly who's meeting who and where, along with a hint on the content of their conversation. However, in general the information gathered this way is not conclusive enough to file an extensive IC report that so many people seem to be obsessing over (working as intended IMO).


Interestingly enough, currently my biggest pet peeve with scrying is the passive divination feature.
I found that a lot of scrying targets are actually diviners themselves who can tell whenever they are being watched. Before the cooldown, a lot of characters would just yell back at the diviner to make it clear that no information would be learned that way.
With the cooldown however, this cute interaction seems to have disappeared - people will just drop everything and pretend to be AFK, then wait 2 min knowing that for the next 8 they're free to do whatever.
This makes the passive divination feature virtually a 24/7 countermeasure.


I'd propose to change it so that the message that someone's been "watched from afar" gets delivered after the fact rather than in real time.

It'd also be very cool if another message could be delivered in cases of failed attempts vs a diviner - "someone was trying to break through your scrying countermeasures" or something like that.

Also a small chance of revealing the identity of the diviner who was attempting to scry the other diviner would have been neat. This'd have introduced a little risk factor to all scrying attempts, since there's none atm.

Hazard
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:20 pm

The bard song is certainly OP and should be re-balanced. Make it just protect the bard, not the party.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:39 pm

I'd propose to change it so that the message that someone's been "watched from afar" gets delivered after the fact rather than in real time.

It'd also be very cool if another message could be delivered in cases of failed attempts vs a diviner - "someone was trying to break through your scrying countermeasures" or something like that.

Also a small chance of revealing the identity of the diviner who was attempting to scry the other diviner would have been neat. This'd have introduced a little risk factor to all scrying attempts, since there's none atm.
I actually like all these ideas - though maybe not the latter one until something is balenced the other way (e.g. failed scry attempts don't cost time/components/something - introducing the 'you might know who it is scrying' issue AS WELL as all the other malase would be a huge kick in the teeth.

Perhaps - given the situation - we could consider exetending the scry timer (asin the amount of time you scry on people) even longer on success? That might balence it out a bit more?
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Hazard
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:02 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:39 pm
I'd propose to change it so that the message that someone's been "watched from afar" gets delivered after the fact rather than in real time.

It'd also be very cool if another message could be delivered in cases of failed attempts vs a diviner - "someone was trying to break through your scrying countermeasures" or something like that.

Also a small chance of revealing the identity of the diviner who was attempting to scry the other diviner would have been neat. This'd have introduced a little risk factor to all scrying attempts, since there's none atm.
I actually like all these ideas - though maybe not the latter one until something is balenced the other way (e.g. failed scry attempts don't cost time/components/something - introducing the 'you might know who it is scrying' issue AS WELL as all the other malase would be a huge kick in the teeth.

Perhaps - given the situation - we could consider exetending the scry timer even longer on success? That might balence it out a bit more?
I'm all for longer scry, yes please.

EDIT: Or, oh wait. Did you mean ... increase the CD timer and make scry even worse? I'm not sure. One sounds like a great idea, one sounds like I'll be begging for a re-level on multiple characters.

ElvenEdibles
Posts: 25
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:32 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by ElvenEdibles » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:27 pm

Aerlyn and XXX make some good points I hadn't considered and I think now, maybe Scrying could do with some further tweaking.

magistrasa
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by magistrasa » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:58 pm

No other ESF is as niche as divination. For a majority of the classes who have the option of picking it up, it's at a huge personal sacrifice. Clerics, Druids, Favored Souls, Shaman - the only regular spell they cast that sees any tangible benefit from the ESF is the duration increase to True Seeing. Clerics don't get PW:K, for some genuinely baffling reason, but I'm not complaining because PW:K sucks really, really hard. So not only do they not get divination spells, they don't even have the possibility of attaining the five minute scry specialist wizards get that might, just might, make the one useful ability of the ESF worth it. Not enough attention is paid to the fact that not everyone is a wizard with a half-dozen extra bonus feats. A fair amount of diviners are buying into the skill for an ability that, 80% of the time, doesn't do anything.

I think it's downright absurd that there's so much caution and hand-wringing about scrying being "abused" or "overpowered." It's exclusively a roleplay tool. Its use on the server is to create roleplay opportunities. When you scry on a secret meeting and learn important information, it doesn't "ruin the fun" of whatever cloak-and-dagger shenanigans is afoot. It expands the ongoing narrative and creates a new opportunity for future interaction with what would otherwise perhaps go on in isolation behind closed doors. I'm someone who does cloak-and-dagger roleplay literally all the time and I know there's so many ways to counter stealth spies and scryers that the only way you're getting caught with your pants down is if you're purposefully negligent. Honestly, who cares if people rest a lot to scry a lot? Are we getting on the case of power-napping conjurers who yoink entire gank squads into remote locations? I'd honestly argue -yoink is a much more detrimental ability for the integrity of roleplay on the server, but no one seems to care about its impact at all. So what's the deal, guys? Why do the devs have divination pinned up as public enemy number one?

The other roleplay goodies diviners get are fun, though. I like being able to see people's auras, and styling oneself as a fortune teller can make for some thoroughly engaging moments of storytelling. But even then, it's a little disappointing that those tools haven't exactly evolved at all for years. The auras and the deck of stars and all the "FOIG" aspects of divination are already solved puzzles. I don't know what else I can expect from that whole situation, but the lost luster of a mystery dispelled just feels like another point of disappointment in an already lackluster bundle of abilities.

Everyone I know who uses scry regularly only uses the shortest duration, only uses it on their friends, and only uses it so they can find out where their friends are and of they're free to hang out together. To be honest, even before the buff nerf changes, that's pretty much all I ever used it for myself. You can imagine how much better off those people would be served by ESF Transmutation or Illusion or Conjuration. I know I imagine it every day. The thought haunts my every waking moment.

Anyways, TLDR: Most of the classes who can take ESF Divination can't do anything with it but scry, so hamstringing the ability creates a 3-feat investment on feat-strapped builds for an ability with so many counters and so many bugs and so many other circumstantial flaws that it doesn't even work for its intended function at least 80% of the time. Scrying is not fine as-is. Either the restrictions need to be eased, the ability needs a rework, or the school of divination needs a hell of a lot more spells and goodies to justify the investment in other regards.
- Career Sharran - Meme Machine - Artist (Allegedly) -
> Twitter < - Will Trade Art For Groceries - > Patreon <

Salasker
Posts: 31
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:29 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Salasker » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:54 pm

Full disclosure, I've never used Scry, so I don't have a horse in this race. However, it sounds like, for 3 FEATs, you're not getting much and it's bugged to boot. I've always been pretty 'meh' about it, as everyone and their familiars seems to know how to stop it from working (not to mention the Bardsong, which REALLY needs a nerf), so I don't see why anyone would use up 3 FEATs at the moment to invest in it in the first place.

The 5% chance to break through any warding sounds like a neat idea, but since it was shot down, I had a thought. What if the ways to ward change every so often? I have no idea how this would work, but perhaps the Gods of Information and the Gods of Secrecy play cards from time to time and the winners get to mess with what Arelith knows. Or a wizard did it. Something to make what 'everyone knows' change up from time to time? Just a thought.

As it stands though, having the CD and losing spell components fire not only when it doesn't work (which is the majority of the time) AND when a bug fizzles it out when it DOES seems like a pretty harsh penalty for what is supposed to be a fun RP tool. Right now, ESF Divination is up there with ESF Enchantment as pretty lousy choices when considering where to spend those hard won experience points.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 1289
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:16 pm

It does make sense to me that it wouldnt waste the components on failed attempts. You didnt scry so you shouldnt waste the resource, we could say. That would soften some of the downsides mentioned in this thread, to some degree. I still think scry offers enough information even if, say, you actually manage to get a good scry 1 out of 5 times and if the failures didnt waste components then it would feel less bad I think?

I'm quite sure if nothing is changed from what it is now, divination and -scry will still be popular and we'll still see them a lot. I guess we'll see tho.
Former Characters: Kirk Senner, Lorian Darkmoon, Rayne Mashavelle, Arkin Abellan, Ryth Ellaniar, Storm Kel Abu'adir, Edros Mashavelle.

-XXX-
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:58 pm

Well, what's preventing the diviner from spamming -scry every opportunity they get if the cost gets removed? It's not like 5 spell component charges (~700gp) would be an outrageous cost unless you're spamming it.

On a vaguely related note - IMO scrying suffers from too much reliable open information ATM. Why not change the cooldown to a variable (for example 5-15 mins) rather than a fixed value? Variance and randomness go along with the spirit of the game.

Blossom
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:56 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Blossom » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:02 pm

Class cooldowns are pretty janky already. Crossing servers and logging in and out does awful things even with -cd all. I don't think adding a randomized CD duration would do much but layer on more frustration.

Jordenk
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:56 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Jordenk » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:46 pm

The issue is, as I see it, really straightforward. I'm amazed that there's much debate on how useful this is as opposed to how useful it "should" be. I wanted to try and capture the compounded feedback in here into a simple list/flow.

1) The conditions at present make it very hard and low probability to "initiate" a successful scry.
- 4+ FOIG IC means to counter scry outright available in one form or another to (almost) every PC & party
- Player & Character being actually present online
- Playerlist does not work cross server (afaik) so you need to literally travel the ley lines to even find out if they're on, or just risk a fail trying for that person blind, or ping a speedy msgr to see if they're around.

2) The VALUE derived from a successful scry is not very high in an overwhelming number of instances.
-It's random if not extremely difficult to determine when to even scry someone to catch them doing something secretive, because it's secretive..
-EVEN IF you hit the jackpot and scry someone at the right time during something secret AND when they're not "protected against scrying" the scry duration to typing/dialogue output ratio makes meaningful dialogue gleamed minimal.

I wish we had data on the scry attempt/success ratio. It's probably not great. Add in the successful attempt/"useful" information gathered ratio (hard to do as it's qualitative), and you're looking at a compounded probability of.... well very small chance that you A) Successfully scry your target and B) You learn anything of value.

Meanwhile this whole process takes a substantial amount of investment:
-Spell components
-Player time (not to be overlooked)
PLUS
-3x Feat investment or Loremaster Class Secret

So you've got 5 + conditions stacking against you to reduce the probability of this being worth your time at all, let alone resources & feat investments.

I'm sorry, it just doesn't look good on paper and in practice it's probably actually worse. So my real question is, is this by design or do we think it's more useful than it is?

xanrael
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by xanrael » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:56 pm

Scrying has a cost (feats, components), but it doesn't have a risk in the same magnitude as infiltration or stealth does. I see it more as a supplemental method for knowledge acquisition than a one-stop shop.

Personally the times I've done cloak-and-dagger style RP infiltration has been the #1 method and scrying/stealth/disguise were secondary features. Likewise infiltration involves high risk and the potential of immediate consequences if it fails.

For me at least I'd rather see riskier methods receive a bonus before scrying. Like a dialogue option of listening at a quarter door that would allow you to hear the conversation inside with a successful listen check but could be detected by the people inside (min 5% chance a minute, but goes up depending upon their listen versus your move silently). Also a watchman outside could spot you.

Curve
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Curve » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:34 pm

This is easy to forget and worth reiterating,
xanrael wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:56 pm
Scrying has a cost (feats, components), but it doesn't have a risk in the same magnitude as infiltration or stealth does. I see it more as a supplemental method for knowledge acquisition than a one-stop shop.
The three feat investment should be looked at over a character's career rather than each scry attempt individually.

At 30th level there is little stopping someone from scrying an untold amount of times, hundreds or thousands. There have been many a player in times past to log in and do nothing but scry until they hit on something juicy, or get bored. Scrying for rl hours at a time. This allows a dedicated player who knows how to wield it an incredible amount of soft power. There needs to be some limiting factor. I like the new way.

There are also many, many ways of making use of scrying other than chilling in a safe location and targeting people. Think outside the box, be proactive.

User avatar
Blood on my Lips
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue May 23, 2017 7:03 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Blood on my Lips » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:55 pm

As someone who has played mutiple scriers over the years, I can tell you that what you usually see when you scry, is someone standing AFK in their quarter. Sometimes you get lucky and see a line of dialogue, but between the short duration of the scry sessions and how slow the average person types, scrying is not this supremely over-powered spy tool people make it out to be.

Honestly, between the cool-down, the short scry duration, the component usage, and the three feat investment, scry feels like a rip off right there. Throw in the numerous methods of warding against scrying, spell component loss on failure, and cool-down on failure and I find myself wondering why I wasted a feat on this.

I'm sure there's a few players that use their scry ability for hunting down targets to murder, but the average scrier is generally using it to simply locate friends.

-XXX-
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am

xanrael wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:56 pm
Scrying has a cost (feats, components), but it doesn't have a risk in the same magnitude as infiltration or stealth does.
People infiltrate places in the most brazen ways knowing full well that even if their character gets killed in the process, nothing can compel them to unlearn the information obtained this way - they'll just hit respawn and proceed to compile a more detailed report than any diviner ever could.

If we're going to compare the cost of a respawn penalty vs a 3 feat investment, let's just say that one is inconsequential when compared to the other.

Being able to bypass quarter locks is literally the only advantage that scrying has over stealth/infiltration. Yet absolute countermeasures vs. stealth got nerfed into oblivion or outright removed while cheap(!) and absolute countermeasures vs scrying keep getting introduced.



And before someone says anything about stealth infiltration being more interactive than scrying, it's not - people often just park their stealthed toon someplace convenient and go AFK to collect the logs later regardless of whether they get found out and killed or not.

Hazard
Posts: 887
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:08 am

Alternatively seeing more divination school spells open up to clerics/druids/etc would take a lot of the sting out of -scry's suckiness.
The same goes for nearly all other schools of magic for the cleric, apart from evocation which they have a decent amount of DC spells to play with.

Every other school really offers nothing but the ESF -toy, and if it sucks, you end up feeling pretty salty about the 3 feat investment.

Curve
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:47 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Curve » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:47 am

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am
People infiltrate places in the most brazen ways knowing full well that even if their character gets killed in the process, nothing can compel them to unlearn the information obtained this way - they'll just hit respawn and proceed to compile a more detailed report than any diviner ever could.
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am
And before someone says anything about stealth infiltration being more interactive than scrying, it's not - people often just park their stealthed toon someplace convenient and go AFK to collect the logs later regardless of whether they get found out and killed or not.
I don't know who does stuff like this, but it should be reported.
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am
If we're going to compare the cost of a respawn penalty vs a 3 feat investment, let's just say that one is inconsequential when compared to the other.
You are allowing the goal posts to be moved by actions that are at best reportable. Character death is a big deal to me, and to many other players.
-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am
Being able to bypass quarter locks is literally the only advantage that scrying has over stealth/infiltration. Yet absolute countermeasures vs. stealth got nerfed into oblivion or outright removed while cheap(!) and absolute countermeasures vs scrying keep getting introduced.
I see where you are coming from here. Scrying has a hard counter that lasts longer than the hard counter for stealth. It has several hard counters. I think at least two of those counters are too strong, like I think True Seeing was too strong a counter before the nerf. At the same time I do not think it is as simple as you are presenting it to be. Stealth has hard counters still, they just have to be used, and used in clever ways.

To me there is an argument to be made for not using components on a failed scry, but I don't think that is an easy win. It is certainly not a hill I would die on.

-XXX-
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:17 pm

Curve wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:47 am
I don't know who does stuff like this, but it should be reported.
Report what exactly?
Someone trying to slip into places that they're not supposed to be? That's what stealth is for! :lol:
Someone being AFK while disguised and stealthed? Not forbidden from what I can tell...
Someone respawning and spilling the beans about the events leading to their death? Lame but widespread as mandatory respawn amnesia has not been enforced for years now.


The biggest problem with reporting cheeky behavior during cloak and dagger situations is that it often becomes apparent only after a considerable time period has elapsed. Allow me to outline a hypothetical scenario here and let's see if anything about it becomes familiar:

1. Cheeky spy slips into places they're not supposed to be in.
2. Cheeky spy sees/hears things.
3. Cheeky spy gets found and killed.
4. Cheeky spy respawns and files a report.
5. Cheeky spy submits the report to the faction leader.
6. Faction leader sits on the report for weeks or months.
7. Faction leader pulls out the report to implicate involved parties in an opportune time (now with murder charges slapped on top of it ofc.)

So yeah, step 4. could arguably be considered reportable offense. Thing is that you usually learn about in step 7. weeks or months later. At this point the damage is done, details are blurred - good luck making sense out of it.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:49 pm

Someone being AFK while disguised and stealthed? Not forbidden from what I can tell...
This one is a bit of a grey area.
If someone is obviously AFK then yes- attacking them is lame.
That said - being AFK should not be an 'Invulnerability' shield.

My advice?

If you meet someone who is afk and your pc has valid reason for attacking them - offer them plenty rp - give it say, five to ten min - and if they havn't responded in that time then - well that's their issue.

If you are in a very dangerous area re PvP is concerned- don't go AFK for too long if you can help it.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

xanrael
Posts: 345
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:13 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by xanrael » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:06 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:44 am
xanrael wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:56 pm
Scrying has a cost (feats, components), but it doesn't have a risk in the same magnitude as infiltration or stealth does.
People infiltrate places in the most brazen ways knowing full well that even if their character gets killed in the process, nothing can compel them to unlearn the information obtained this way - they'll just hit respawn and proceed to compile a more detailed report than any diviner ever could.

If we're going to compare the cost of a respawn penalty vs a 3 feat investment, let's just say that one is inconsequential when compared to the other.
If Bob joins an organization with the intention to spy and is found out a month down the road they're likely not only going to be killed once. They're now a known "traitor" to that faction and their consequences are basically whatever the faction wants it to be within the rules and may last through the lifetime of the character. Stealthing to listen in has less of a betrayal angle so probably see less retaliation but still possible. In either case barring a bug the scryer isn't taking the same risk.

Also yes, you're correct, they may not care. That's just true in general though. You can have a player that doesn't care if they're killed, their quarter is robbed/ransacked, placeables they made were destroyed, their pockets are picked, or even if they get banned. The fact that some people are apathetic doesn't change that it is a consequence.

Also as another pointed out a person that takes scry can use it hundreds of times against different groups for that investment . A spy infiltrating a single organization and getting caught may spend the next 2 RL months dealing with the fallout of that one attempt.

magistrasa
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by magistrasa » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:55 pm

Straying dangerously close to being off-topic here, but I'll speak towards the stealth/scry comparison anyways.

Just like the circumstances of people "abusing scry to form gank squads" are outliers that's it's unfair to base judgment on, it's also unfair to judge stealth spying by the outliers that go "AFK log skimming with no respect for death." What you're describing is so foreign to my experiences that I have a genuinely difficult time believing it's ever happened - and if it has happened, surely not by more than one bad player.

Speaking more towards the broader experience, if you compare stealth and scry, the primary difference that comes to mind is that one is so much more fun than the other. Stealthing into a meeting requires a level of interactivity in gameplay, if not always in roleplay, as you meticulously wiggle your way into a position where you won't be spotted and are still able to overhear the conversation. I played a stealth-dip mage with both scry and hide/ms in the 90s, and if I knew something interesting was going on, I always tried to spy instead of scry. Because I knew whenever I'd try to scry, it'd either fail due to wards, or I'd drink myself to death and blow up two component pouches to pick up five lines of barely comprehensible dialogue. It was the ability I was most excited about when I made my first diviner, but after a certain point, I just gave up on making scry work.

Generally speaking, to be good at stealthing, you need 66 skill points, at least an epic feat (and maybe some general feats), tailor made stealth gear that includes some frustratingly rare chest loot, and consumables for every infiltration. If your hide/ms is less than 90, you may as well infiltrate under invisibility instead of stealth. And even 90 is too low to feel safe, honestly. Let's not pretend it's the no-investment route for spying. The difference is, you get WAY more out of your investment - so much so that it's a sacrifice barely felt. Stealth is an awesome tool for both combat and roleplay. Scrying is a joke by comparison.

Anyways, like I said, possibly going off topic so it might not be a good idea to linger on stealth much longer.

(I just woke up so hopefully anything I said was remotely coherent, I can't sentence structure very well today lol.)
- Career Sharran - Meme Machine - Artist (Allegedly) -
> Twitter < - Will Trade Art For Groceries - > Patreon <

-XXX-
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:12 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:55 pm
Just like the circumstances of people "abusing scry to form gank squads" are outliers that's it's unfair to base judgment on, it's also unfair to judge stealth spying by the outliers that go "AFK log skimming with no respect for death." What you're describing is so foreign to my experiences that I have a genuinely difficult time believing it's ever happened - and if it has happened, surely not by more than one bad player.
I've never witnessed a scry homed gank-squad first hand myself. Following your logic that must not be a thing then!

But yes, scry is inferior to stealth when it comes to espionage (and by a LOT), yet people keep pretending the opposite is the case.

magistrasa
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:59 pm

Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by magistrasa » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:55 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:12 pm
I've never witnessed a scry homed gank-squad first hand myself. Following your logic that must not be a thing then!
Sorry, more awake now so I can probably phrase my thoughts a bit more accurately (or at the very least coherently, Jesus Christ). I didn't mean to imply that you were lying about such an event ever happening - I'm more trying to emphasize that it's so far beyond resemblance to anything I've personally experienced that it's hard to imagine it being common enough to be a concern in the way you portrayed it. I don't think you would have used such an example if it didn't happen, just like I'm sure people wouldn't mention scry-enabled gank squads if they didn't happen. Personally, I've never seen nor heard a first-hand account of either circumstance, it's just vaguely brought up and understood as "a thing that happens," which, knowing how prone people can be to gossip and hyperbole and conjecture in the everlasting game of telephone that goes on in private chat rooms, I think is healthy to take those tales with a healthy dose of skepticism.

That said, we're on the same side of the argument, so I don't know why I'm being so pedantic with you here. I guess I just wanna make sure the conversation stays grounded in reality. It's obvious that these circumstances are certainly not the norm, so caution ought to be taken in making sure these bad player behaviors aren't portrayed as being more common than they actually are.

We don't need to tempt them into nerfing stealth next, please god I have so little left to live for, don't let them take this from me too.
- Career Sharran - Meme Machine - Artist (Allegedly) -
> Twitter < - Will Trade Art For Groceries - > Patreon <

Post Reply