Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

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Hazard
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Hazard » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:59 am

Void wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 am
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.
If you kill yourself, isn't your soul gone to the wall and you can't be raised?

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Void » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:20 pm

Hazard wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:59 am
Void wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 am
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.
If you kill yourself, isn't your soul gone to the wall and you can't be raised?
If you're talking about -unrelent, then I don't know.

If you're speaking of general terms, then I believe that's a "no".

You might be thinking about -delete_character. I'm talking about dagger to the heart (which is not implemented). There's one more way aside from -unrelent, but it takes more than one round. -delete_character corresponds to passing the wall, by the way.

However, looking through the wiki I found an interesting tidbit:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules
3. No excessive gore, graphic violence, or 'torture porn.' You can allude to it, but don't go into hideous detail. Suicide and suicidal themes also fall under umbrella: don't bring it into the game.
Apparently this one goes above T rating.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:43 pm

Hazard wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:59 am
Void wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 am
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.
If you kill yourself, isn't your soul gone to the wall and you can't be raised?

The wall is only relevant if someone is faithless, and is governed by the Faerunian pantheon.

The Faerunian pantheon is not all-powerful. It is powerful in regions inhabited by mostly western-faerun humans, so other pantheons have to deal with Kelemvor rather than impose their own laws of death.

Now, whether suicide makes one become False is another question, one that depends on deity. Now, this does not have much writing for most deities, so we can at best make assumptions (Lathander will likely brand you False for it and give you to Kelemvor to punish. Bane will laugh and welcome the new slave in his realm. Corellon will probably consider the circumstances, considering how some forms of elven magic are basically suicide.)

One cannot stress enough that religion in Forgotten Realms is not like religion in Dragonlance, Greyhawk or even Planescape. Whether geographically or racially, different pantheons impose different laws. (and as a fun fact: the Faerunian pantheon is barely 2 000 years old, being an amalgation of 4 smaller pantheons itself. Something to consider in face of all the novels and sourcebooks written after the fall of Netheril from perspective of Sword Coast/Silver Marches humans)

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Lass is Class
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Lass is Class » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:48 pm

Like many others mentioned here, teleportation being easy to achieve and to use is but the only thing that can protect from players who do a one-line style of conflict resolution or outright griefing.

The last several months I've witnessed all sorts of rulebreaking and disrespect on an out-of-character level, with zero desire to resolve conflicts by any other means than PvP, witnessing many players popping up to just killbash at will, having zero tells afterwards to communicate through PvP encounter, et cetera. Things that deliberately cripple your trust in having a good time.

I won't ever blame those who use the lens or all sorts of means to escape the undesired conflict and potential risk of spending out two hours rendered semi-useless and having evening plans ruined.

The cancer of one-liner roleplay tends to spread throughout Discord, where friends between themselves condemn other characters and players, deciding between themselves that "that one person doesn't deserve a proper roleplay interaction". That further decreases the chances of trust and understanding to be reached. I know because I heard others telling me that, and I was writing a similar thing after repeatedly encountering certain griefers (some of which were banned already).

Players who are playing the game for a long time and willingly don't partake in PvP because it disgusts them, know a simple truth. Trust with the conflict - any conflict, PvP or not - only to those of your friend list or those related to those. And by all means necessary, dodge all the others bringing it to them without making sure they are okay with this. It is a faster and more reliable way to save your nerves, time and narrative progress than to trust they won't be just killbashed and that there would be a story behind PvP from random players you've never seen before, even.

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Maybe the problem is not with the availability of escape methods, but with how easy it is to avoid punishments from DMs for doing one-liner stuff and griefing, and how much folks are out there willing to do it.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Curve » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm

I don’t want to sound too harsh but if your idea of playing on Arelith is to only engage with and allow your ooc pals to have any say on your precious story then- I don’t know, that is a bummer.

This is not a single player game. This is not your private dnd group.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by charmcaster » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:22 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm
I don’t want to sound too harsh but if your idea of playing on Arelith is to only engage with and allow your ooc pals to have any say on your precious story then- I don’t know, that is a bummer.

This is not a single player game. This is not your private dnd group.
Random person I've never even seen before giving me a five second heads-up and being not only not willing but hostile towards anything else but a complete heel turn surrender, and while that is being mulled over, his buddy pops out of stealth and eats my hp before I have finished typing, is not how I want to see a story, any story, play out. Random acts of senseless violence bring nothing to the table but perpetuating the same in turn, nothing is being gained, I have only lost my time and maybe a smidge of effort to make a scene out of something that the other party wasn't ever going to engage with. So yeah. Lens out and call it a day.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Zavandar » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:26 pm

Watchful Glare wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am
A lot.
These posts have made a lot of assumptions and put a lot of words in people's mouths.

The people that want to do capture RP will do so. I don't let myself be easy to kill, but have let myself be captured when it does happen. The two are not mutually exclusive. I personally prefer that more people do that, because I'm not looking for a freebie and I'm not looking to give them out, either. It's more rewarding that way, and I want others to make it just as challenging for me, too.

I also have to say that I find your point of getting a kill after a one-line as a "consolation prize" disconcerting. Nobody is making you kill anyone.

I've done a fair amount of PvP. Do I get a little frustrated if someone just lenses at the sight of me? Sometimes. But I roll with it, too, because I'm not here to just kill everyone. I'm here for the spontaneous storytelling that is fairly unique to Arelith.

Honestly, a lot of the people in favor of making teleportation harder really do look, to me, like they just want to make more people respawn.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Void » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:29 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm
I don’t want to sound too harsh but if your idea of playing on Arelith is to only engage with and allow your ooc pals to have any say on your precious story then- I don’t know, that is a bummer.

This is not a single player game. This is not your private dnd group.
This is not a multiplayer match of "for honor" or anything like that.

People enjoy different things, and each player fullfill a role, acting as an npc/character you can interact with. So in order for a "player NPC/character" to stay, the player must have fun in the process. If they stop having fun or you force them to do something they really dislike, they'll leave, and you'll lose an NPC/character. And until somebody comes up with "Westworld Neverwinter Edition" level of tech you need a person behind every character you see to keep the world alive.

Somebody who is playing to unwind still contributes to your world, even if they want to have nothing to do some sort of faction war or alignment conflict. They also have no obligation to go along with your intended narrative.
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Lass is Class
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Lass is Class » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:04 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm
I don’t want to sound too harsh but if your idea of playing on Arelith is to only engage with and allow your ooc pals to have any say on your precious story then- I don’t know, that is a bummer.

This is not a single player game. This is not your private dnd group.
Wholeheartedly agree. Real bummer, though, is when people's trust in engagement in spontageous interactions is repeatedly killed by one-line 'interactions', and that they resort to roleplay with extreme caution on OOC level.

If you read carefully, the previous post only mentioned senseless PvP being sort-of established as part of allowed evil on Arelith that creates problems that lead into huge sink of trust and desire to partake in conflicts in general. Until those are not resolved on community level, taking away the tools to prevent undesireable encounters happening will hamper not only those who abuse it to avoid consequences of their actions.
Curve wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm
> on your
Haven't said the players that do use such means to avoid conflicts mean me as person, no need to be objectifying. I am all about giving chances for the story to develop into something - and also almost never escape PvP either. That is the only way to bring the token of trust and respect of other's playtime, to see if anything comes out of it.

At the same time, I fully understand those who are not willing to part with the huge chunk of their time and emotions to dare such risks, to remain on the receiving end of PvP stick.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by MegaJeff » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:13 pm

Teleporting away, or running away or whatever else, is a normal reaction to have in many circumstances. And OPs suggestions really would just give people less options in hostile interactions.

Have I had people wordlessly lense away from me while trying to talk with them? Sure, all the time. And the appropriate reaction is "Oh well, can't blame them. They didn't want to die." And as a response to that I could put a note on the board of where that characer lives pointing out their cowardice. An appropriate IC followup to their behaviour, it then gives them the opportunity to follow up as to why they did said fleeing.

And yet I've done the exact same thing, because something that frequently happens on this server is big, warded groups walking up to you and going "Do what I want or die." And the options are:
1. Do what they want (Likely something that is very against that character's interest, and very unlikely fun for the player. Good chance of being killed afterwards anyways.)
2. Die (So you can enjoy a few hours of death penalty and being corpsebashed in a public place.)
3. Or escape, because how else are you going to respond when you're caught off guard and out-numbered, with little agency in the interaction. It's very appropriate behaviour for most characters to go "Wow I'm in trouble time to run." Sure there's more interaction if they physically flee, but I'm unsure why someone should be begrudged for taking the safest route, one we all have access to.

All that would happen from adding a delay to teleporting away is make it even easier to scry-gank, strong arm and essentially bully people into doing what you want; and killing them if they don't do so. It removes pretty much all agency for the side that's in trouble (Which is very important in all roleplaying experiences and is an essential part of Arelith's emergent gameplay.) Although I'm sure this isn't the desire of OP.

If people are instantly teleporting from you, yeah that sucks. Maybe consider them not that interesting to roleplay with, and not worth your time. You could even play it off ICly as "Wow they literally fled at the sight of me. I must be super scary." With that your antagonism is no longer denied and it's even a 'win' considering they ran. You should be able to capitalize on that ICly, because you don't need to kill people in every interaction to consider it a victory anyways.

Though if a player's immediate response to seeing someone is to lense. Then I feel it is worth contemplating why they are acting in such a way, because their experience and enjoyment is worth just as much as anyone elses.
Last edited by MegaJeff on Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by LovelyLightningWitch » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:31 pm

Curve wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:11 pm
I don’t want to sound too harsh but if your idea of playing on Arelith is to only engage with and allow your ooc pals to have any say on your precious story then- I don’t know, that is a bummer.

This is not a single player game. This is not your private dnd group.
Arelith is, hands down, the best server in both NWN1 and NWN2 for DM-independent roleplay.

We've got amazing crafting systems. We've got amazing settlement management systems.

We've also got the best sailing system. A sailing system that does not need you to ask DMs to run you a DM event, which the DM will decide to hijack from a "mercantile voyage to Waterdeep" into some random world-ending plotline involving cowled wizards, a kraken, and djinnies. Pirate encounters, storms? One thing. But DMs feeling the obligation to turn every minor slice of life event into some bigger-than-life threat and obligation for the characters made me really, really, really appreciate Arelith's hands-off DM approach. Nope. if on Arelith you decide to hop on a boat with a ton of heavy resources from Cordor, sail to Guldorand and sell... you can do that! And if you play it smart, you don't even need to deal with pirates. (Although I wish you could do sailing without joining settlement navies or potentially pvp-seeking private ships. And that doing that was more profitable beyond "hey, did anyone get us stone we need for upkeep?" "Uh, nope." "I can rent a boat and buyout cordor's stocks").

I play Arelith for these systems. To experience life from perspective of an elven scholar-priestess who struggles with one of the core pillars of her faith, and had struggled with all her life. To push through and fulfil the obligations of a priestess of death, who hates to think about death and change, but owes her goddess and thus seeks to console those who suffered losses and hardships. To experience life from perspective of a maritime explorer who seeks to document the wildlife of strange and unusual islands.

Not for some outdated and janky PvP, I've got MOBAs for that. Nor for constant conflict and turmoil and "stories". I've got books and dwarf fortress for that.

Arelith is unique in providing a chance to simulate the Forgotten Realms. To truly simulate it, free of being dependent on DMs to go sailing. Free from needing DMs to arbitrate your impact as a craftsperson or woodsperson to your settlement. You go out with a bow, hunt some deer. It directly manifests and benefits your settlement. How amazing is that? No other NWN1/NW2 provides that. No mainstream game provides that. Not even Eternia on BYOND. Closest thing to this may be Star Wars Galaxies, or some ancient MUDs.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Skibbles » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:36 pm

What if we had mechanics that could trap characters into comically tasteless social RP or something extremely polar opposite, for the sake of argument, to conflict PVP? How much would the community go for this? How badly would people be screaming for escape when they're strapped to a chair and made to play out talking about who is cheating on who, or the latest rumors of the week - at the full and complete whim of anyone but themselves?

What if, on top of it, the chance of escape also hinged on the player's skill too? What if one person just wasn't very good at getting out of these situations and as a result had to suffer hearing the same damn story about the love triangle between Bob and Megan and Casper the Ghost over and over again. There has to be a point where we can sympathize and think, "Alright, yeah, maybe it's okay if people don't want to be subjected to stories that don't interest them."

The issues raised here may accidentally lie in the thread's very title: "Telling a narrative." When one person Tells, the only other thing anyone else can do is Listen. Being talked at, without any capacity to meaningfully respond, is not something any person generally enjoys. Some of the comments here, I think, indicate this underlying feeling in some of these interactions.

(On the other hand sometimes PvP is the meaningful response, but it doesn't sound like that's really what we're talking about here)

As a disclaimer I want to recognize I'm not in favor of total safety but I am very skeptical that there's really anything wrong with the way things are - aside from the things mentioned here that should obviously be reported.
Last edited by Skibbles on Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hazard
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Hazard » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:01 pm

LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:43 pm
Hazard wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:59 am
Void wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:45 am

Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.
If you kill yourself, isn't your soul gone to the wall and you can't be raised?

The wall is only relevant if someone is faithless, and is governed by the Faerunian pantheon.

The Faerunian pantheon is not all-powerful. It is powerful in regions inhabited by mostly western-faerun humans, so other pantheons have to deal with Kelemvor rather than impose their own laws of death.

Now, whether suicide makes one become False is another question, one that depends on deity. Now, this does not have much writing for most deities, so we can at best make assumptions (Lathander will likely brand you False for it and give you to Kelemvor to punish. Bane will laugh and welcome the new slave in his realm. Corellon will probably consider the circumstances, considering how some forms of elven magic are basically suicide.)

One cannot stress enough that religion in Forgotten Realms is not like religion in Dragonlance, Greyhawk or even Planescape. Whether geographically or racially, different pantheons impose different laws. (and as a fun fact: the Faerunian pantheon is barely 2 000 years old, being an amalgation of 4 smaller pantheons itself. Something to consider in face of all the novels and sourcebooks written after the fall of Netheril from perspective of Sword Coast/Silver Marches humans)
Oh, thanks for the info. Fun to learn about :)

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Hazard
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Hazard » Thu Nov 25, 2021 6:10 pm

A previous server I played on had a kind of anchor spell, that would prevent the target from teleporting, being summoned or using greater sanctuary, by anchoring them to their plane and location. It wasn't for the whole area, but just for that one target, it had a save and it had a duration.

A spell similar to that might help, and it would naturally involve adding scrolls/rods that can do the same thing.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by chris a gogo » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:12 pm

A previous server I played on had a kind of anchor spell, that would prevent the target from teleporting, being summoned or using greater sanctuary, by anchoring them to their plane and location. It wasn't for the whole area, but just for that one target, it had a save and it had a duration.

A spell similar to that might help, and it would naturally involve adding scrolls/rods that can do the same thing.
What I am finding interesting about this topic is the number of players that think they should be able to force another player to stay and let them do what they want to them, and I do hope that is never made more easy to do than it already is.

I don't know about others but what im taking away from this thread is that there are players on the server that think they should be able to force others to be there victims, and you can to a limited extent, but if your are finding that no one wants to stay and be threated by your character the fault is probably yours as a player.

Example.
A little while back i was playing an UD character the faction would go to the surface make trouble and rob people threaten to eat them, generally monstrous things that should scare a normal person.
Not a single player teleported away some ran but thats fine we let them run because forcing them into an interaction wasn't giving them any fun.
Got nothing but good feed back even from those we killed(most often by accident my bad most of the time for not being on subdual).

So the answer to the original post is get a rep for having good conflict interactions and making winning or losing fun and you will find the quality of RP improving around you.

Lastly.
Enslavement, prison, death. all unfun as a first engagement avoid doing this as the winner and be more creative give them an out that is fun for them not you, you need to earn another persons time not steal it.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:12 pm

Apologise for slight derailment, want to adress some issues discussed previously within the rules.
LovelyLightningWitch wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:16 am
As for surrendering.

Great. Surrendering as an elf to a drow. Or some fiend cultist. Either it's getting enslaved, or sacrificed and harrassed into taking a permadeath because "lolth ate your soul" or "Orcus ate your soul."
I realize a few other excellent folks on this thread have already said this but I'll say it officially.

REPORT THIS!!!

No one should EVER be pressuring you into ANY of those things! If they are? REPORT IT! And we will come down Screaming like the HOUNDS OF HELL onto them!

(Note that they can of course -ask- if your ok with your pc being a slave or whatever, that's fine. But you're always free to say no.)

Further more, and please note this...

Other than MoDs, there's currently NO mechanics, or rp that can force you to delete your character!

Other pcs can do what the hell they want to your pc - sacrifice them, burn them, 'suck the soul' out of them, whatever- The fate of your pc, whether or not they respawn is ALWAYS IN YOUR HANDS OOCLY!

If you want to perma after that? Go ahead. But that is always YOUR choice.
Speaking of which, the game could use additional suicide option aside from -unrelent. Because in some cases rather than being captured it makes more sense for a character to end their life on the spot.

As for people trying to pressure you into permadeath, report them.

If you kill yourself, isn't your soul gone to the wall and you can't be raised?
As mentioned by others, we try to avoid sucidial themes in this game (though it gets fuzzy when it comes to heroic sacrifices... but that's another issue.) So we are not going to be giving more options to kill/self harm yourself.

If you're in a situaiton where you really want to avoid capture you've two options.
a) Inform the other person politely in a tell that you really do not want to be captured ooc. If they then kill your pc that's fine. But they should (and probably will in my experience) generally respect that.
b) If for some reason they absolutly refuse then just type attack them, and get killed by them anyway, or get subdued and then -relent, or try to flee, or any other number of options.

There is, I suppose, a neiche situation where somehow your pc has been killed, then raised in a cell or such.
First off - it should be noted that for this to happen they need to ask your permission to do such, and by giving the permission you've... well honestly you should at least be a little willing and understanding of possible capture rp, to some small degree.(*) But presuming that you arn't, or they did so without your permission (report that), then know that it is against server rules to imprison another pc without rp for more than 2 ooc hours. If you have doubts, contact a DM and we'll look over the sitation and release your PC.

But the above is very nieche. And really can be solved simply by talking to the other player through tells and setting some expectations if they're raising you. - E.,g. 'Yes I'm fine with a bit of capture rp. No i don't like any form of torture. Can the capture please not last more than an hour if you can help it? I don't mind logging in again later to continue it if need be, but I need to log soon. No I'm not interested in any slavery, but I don't mind wearing a prisoner collar for a bit.'

EDIT

Adding something on because this kinda bugs me...
People who PvP will inevitably harrass you OOC and IC to drive you to take a permadeath or shame you for daring using Regenerate to fix their dumb scars.
Two things here.
I've been playing this game for about 15 years now, and have always welcomed PvP captures and I have NEVER encountered this.
As a DM I have encountered reports of it - but off hand the I can think of no more than a handful in the.. nearly 10 years I've been Dming? (Wow that's a long time...)
I honestly believe that this is a lot rarer than you think it is.

But here's a wild thought too - Did you know that this sort of thing goes both ways?

Sure we're talking a lot about people being 'pressured into slavery' or 'pressured into getting perma scars' but here's a question...

Do you think it would be right to threaten to pvp someone over, and over, and over, and over and over again until they accepted a slave collar? No. Of course not.

Then why do we think it's fine to threaten to pvp someone over and over and over and over and over again until they 'REMOVE' a slave collar?

Likewise - to step away from the issue of slavery a moment which I admit is contentious (please lets not get into that too deeply) If someone is happy to rp a missing limb, or a scar from some capture rp - if they enjoy rping that aspect of a character, I don't think its right to be too forceful ooc about healing it either.

It's wrong for an evil pc to capture another pc and go, 'You really should take this perminent missing ear. I'm cutting it off using horrible negative energy. its absolutly utterly ungrowable. There's no way you'll ever grow it back. A good rper would NEVER let it be healed. If you let it be healed the Dms will know you're a terrible rper. You need to rp this ear gone FOREVER!'

Its also wrong I think for a healer pc to send ooc messages like, 'You really should accept the healing of this ear. I'm using greater restoration and regeneration. Its for sure got to grow back. Nothing would stop it. It must return. A good rper would go along with this. Its tottaly within lore. You're rally making my pc redundent by not letting this happen. If you don't let this ear be grown back the Dms will know you're an awful rper. '

I'm not saying that people can't /offer/ both of these things sure, but the decision is ALWAYS up to the pc in question. And we need to respect that decision, even if we don't like it.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:49 am

The goal on Arelith isn't to roam around and make stories with your OOC pals.

The goal on Arelith is to roam around and create a network of roleplayers/communities who have similar values as you.

There is an adage on the server "be the change you want to see." Part of that is true, part of that is deflective bullshit.

For time immemorial, you will have people who breach the rules of Engagement. This happened in 2004. 2009. 2013. 2017. 2019. 2021. And will happen in 2022, 2024, and beyond.

You have to report, and move on. The 24-hour rule prevents against any further engagement (including captive roleplay). You have to create communal behaviour (not server behaviour) that shitty PvP tactics are un-fun and not permitted.

You basically have to find people who jive with you.

(rest assured no one who breaches rules of engagement are memorable characters. really, they're harming themselves and they don't even know it, which is the real tragedy.)
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by 98lbs of sad carryweight » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:18 am

I like teleportation the way it works right now.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Wenchslayer » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:45 am

To clarify, since I observe this thread has been derailed heavily from my original post. All I stated was the following:

1. Teleportation is very easy to use to escape consequences.

2. Because teleportation is so easy to use, it discourages other means of escaping consequences, which detracts from server role play diversity. Examples include, negotiating, planning exit strategies, or being taken as a captive. However, one option is overwhelmingly the easiest, which is escaping by teleportation.

3. As a result, if teleportation is reduced in effectiveness, we'll see more variety in player conflict as players more carefully consider other options. Some players who may feel the pressure to use teleportation will be forced or decide to consider other options, since this one isn't so overwhelmingly the best choice.

4. Players acting to initiate conflict will also have more options, as many currently feel pressured to attack preemptively, which defeats the point of the 'roleplay first' rule.

Anything else is pretty much outside what I tried to offer as feedback. I can't really speak for bad actors and I feel it's outside the current point of my argument as bad actors will exist regardless of mechanical options or not. If anything, it was my intent that these suggestions decrease the rate of bad actors in conflict.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:15 am

Zavandar wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:26 pm
Watchful Glare wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:13 am
A lot.
These posts have made a lot of assumptions and put a lot of words in people's mouths.

The people that want to do capture RP will do so. I don't let myself be easy to kill, but have let myself be captured when it does happen. The two are not mutually exclusive. I personally prefer that more people do that, because I'm not looking for a freebie and I'm not looking to give them out, either. It's more rewarding that way, and I want others to make it just as challenging for me, too.

I also have to say that I find your point of getting a kill after a one-line as a "consolation prize" disconcerting. Nobody is making you kill anyone.

I've done a fair amount of PvP. Do I get a little frustrated if someone just lenses at the sight of me? Sometimes. But I roll with it, too, because I'm not here to just kill everyone. I'm here for the spontaneous storytelling that is fairly unique to Arelith.

Honestly, a lot of the people in favor of making teleportation harder really do look, to me, like they just want to make more people respawn.
That is certainly a unique way to look at what I wrote, I appreciate the unexpected perspective. If someone lenses out, there's little to be done other than roll with it, I do not imagine it is as if you could force-summon the person back. But if you mean to tell me that when one of your characters aims to kill another, and they lense out before you can get a word in, you will write off the interaction as 'they got away' and not look to kill them again in the near future for whatever it is you wanted to kill them in the first place because they got away that time, then my hat's off to you.

That is a good way to handle it as a loss, and not one I would have expected at all.

I am really sorry to hear you interpret my words that way, hopefully I'll find the way to convey that what I attempt to communicate is the opposite.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by D4wN » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:10 am

Zavandar wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:41 pm
When people feel like their options are "die now" and "die after being RP'd at for 5-10 minutes", I don't blame them for wanting to leave.

I also don't think them fleeing is even something that should be punished or looked down upon. Why would you, for example, sit there and let yourself be captured by people you're fairly certain will just torture and kill you anyway?

"To create a story," some people say. I'd counter and say being afflicted with a momentary bout of stupidity and suicidality is a strange story.

It's okay for antagonists to have to work for killing people.
I actually 100% agree with this. As well as the statement below it about fleeing being a way to show you are taking death seriously. I also don't understand why you would just stand there and take a beating, get tortured or simply delay the inevitable. If you flee and it fails then so be it. But absolutely I think you should try. I'd see no reason not to attempt to flee if 20 angry paladins surround you or on the other side 20 angry drow.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by Kenji » Fri Nov 26, 2021 11:23 am

The aversion to mechanical death/reaching -10 hp is understandable. Personally, the death penalty or the xp loss are minor inconveniences compared to no longer being an active participant in an ongoing conflict RP scene.

Winning a fight by not dying meant controlling as well as continuing the narrative. While the general consensus is that our RP should attempt to be inclusive, mechanically dying just meant no longer participating in the concurrent RP scene and not being able to see the conclusion or result coming from one's death. That, to me, is more damning than not being able to adventure for an hour or losing a few hundred xp points.

There is no reward from dying, but all the penalties. Now, I'm not asking for participation trophies, but if we can somehow make mechanical death still allow some form of passive observation for the players involved without encouraging metagaming, I'm all for it.

On a side note, props to those who played the roles of villains.
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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by CNS » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:44 pm

I think there's a lot of talking at cross purposes here.

On Teleporting and escape

Does anyone (reasonable) mind if John the Knight stumbling on his own into a Drow raiding party makes every effort, including teleporting, to escape as quickly as possible? No, I don't think any one really see's that as anything other than a normal, rational response. Similar situations may apply.

Where I believe people take issue are different scenarios, such as;

Someone decides to nope out in the middle of an ongoing fight and so holds W to a transition and lenses while everyone else is loading in.

Someone decides to RP in a provocative way but doesn't want any consequences of that. Or someone who doesn't want to ever engage in conflict and so will bolt at the first sign of it, regardless of their own characters actions.

Someone who goes to Andunor/<Surface settlement of choice> as a character not welcome and to eliminate risk opens the lens menu before anything happens ready to push 1 the second they get caught. (If this still even works)

There's a clear difference between these two types of scenario.

For me the greatest offender is abusing the 'lens while enemies are transitioning' and potentially 'pre-opened lens menu'. Both of which seem very much like exploitation to me and should probably be ruled and treated as such - both being abuse of the engine to get around a limitation of portal lenses/teleportation spells (that is that they cannot be used in combat).

Beyond that, if someone wants to run and/or be cowardly (or sensible), that's their choice and how they play their character.

On Trigger happy PvP

I'm one person, but it does feel like fast one line PvP is becoming more common. It ultimately wont be solved unless people be the change they want to see in the world and are more willing to take a L now and then. But really:

Are you reporting it?

And side question: DM's should people report it? It's not against the rules, but constantly doing it to random people doesn't seem right either.

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Re: Teleportation mechanics and telling a narrative through conflict.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:34 pm

Locking this topic on request of opening poster.
This too shall pass.

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