Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

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-XXX-
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:17 pm

Void wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:48 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:36 pm
available counterplay, this one doesn't.
How about wand or potion of polymorph self?
I wouldn't view polymorph self or shapechange as viable solutions to anything in general, no.
Especially with regards to PvP.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:52 pm

The poly shapes were changed and nerfed some time ago for vampires so they couldn't do just that. Its why their wolf form shows as "undead" when examined.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Wenchslayer » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:02 pm

Niche issue, vampire subrace in Pvp.

That said, half the reason people 5% a vampire is so they can go stalk players like a proper vampire should. Sort of defeats the point if they have a massive I-win button pointed at them.

Turn should be good but not that good. It does serve somewhat as a check on a subrace that gets critical strike immunity. That said, better if it was a little less of a check at this time.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Spyre » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:16 pm

Alternatively, you could do the other ideas:

1) Reduce the rounds that a person is feared for if they are a Vampire PC versus what they would if it were an NPC.
2) Add a will-save check for PC's only.
3) Give +4 turn resistance to Vampires based on the handbooks.

Just food for thought.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:37 pm

Spyre wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:16 pm
Alternatively, you could do the other ideas:

1) Reduce the rounds that a person is feared for if they are a Vampire PC versus what they would if it were an NPC.
2) Add a will-save check for PC's only.
3) Give +4 turn resistance to Vampires based on the handbooks.

Just food for thought.
If you're looking for a possible ways of handling it, I believe it might be worth to take a look at how Banishment and Dismissal is handled in case of player outsiders.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:41 pm

Spyre wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:37 pm
Dreams wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 pm
Seems balanced to me? This is one of the drawbacks of being undead. You should absolutely fear high-level priests that have the power to turn undead.
32 rounds of fear is not balanced. It is pretty much this: get feared, wait till you load the fugue and then respawn.

When tweaks were made, it was likely that a logic step was missed for checking on if the Undead is a PC. It should likely include a will-save roll.
I'm late to this conversation, but I'm strongly inclined to disagree. The fear duration should be nerfed, but it shouldn't have a will save added. Supposing that a PC Undead gets all the proper racial traits of their subtype, the list of immunities they get include:

Death effects
Disease
Poison
Sneak attacks
Critical Hits
Ability damage/drain
Level Drain
Hold spells (living targets only)
Charm/Dominate Spells (Living targets only)
Almost all other mind-affecting spells that include a will save, including fear.


This list of immunities completely trivializes or invalidates the kits of multiple other character archetypes in any PvP encounter - having your bucket list of immunities compromised by the singular character archetype of a high level priest who specializes in turning undead seems balanced just fine to me.

The only change I would make to this situation would be the duration of the fear effect, for the same reason that fear effects were altered across the board in the first place - but I don't believe the turn undead mechanic should have any extra saving throws added. Nerf the duration of the turn fear to reflect the duration of the fear spells. Literally anything else is giving an undead PC too much for too little, regardless of the award type.

TL;DR

Invalidate their one weakness to things that specifically turn undead, and you might as well just give out the undead immunities to a character for the award without requiring them to be undead. I think we can agree that every single undead character is probably already stacking their will save through the roof to deal with Undeath to Death if PvP is even a tertiary concern in their mind - you will never see a PC undead turned if you make this a will save, and then what's the point of the weakness in the first place?
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:29 pm

I thought that their one weakness were mass heal scrolls.

Anyway, IMO a lot would have been solved if turning caused fright instead of fear as it'd no longer have been an instant death sentence, but it's still crippling enough to make the vampire flee on their own.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Huschpfusch » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:44 pm

I suggest if possible:

Specific NewlyInventedSave solely for the purpose of tracing Clericturning vs. VampireResistingTurning pc combat encounters.

Scaling: character level-based: 1(min)-30(max)
Win chance: vamperi:cleric 50%:50% at every level

//Note: Character level so that multiclassing does not interfere.
Would need some checking still though whether there are other factors such as starting gifts inluencing character level (cannot remember wheter BGII's ECL is a thing in NWN or whether it only affected XP-gain anyhow.)

Thus
Same level characters would have same chance.
Higher level character would have increasingly higher chance than the lower level character.

OUTCOME
If Save = Fail -> Effect
If Save = Success -> No effect

Effect type: Fear
Duraction: ? = subject to play testing

Alternatively:
If Save = Fail -> EffectDuration X
If Save = Success -> EffectDuration <X
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by LIAR LIAR » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:37 pm

Mass Heal on self is enough reason to fear clerics.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by perseid » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:09 am

Vampire as it exists is a waste of a 5% in terms of what it contributes to your build imo. I genuinely don't understand the people with the perspective that on top of being a flavor choice it should have a guranteed instagib counter.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Hazard » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:54 am

Yeah.

Vampires come with a lot of weaknesses that can be taken advantage of in PvP.
But isn't that the point of playing a villain and a monster? To be defeated, and to have it done in a thematic lore friendly way is icing on the cake. I don't know about other people, but this is why I made a vampire in the first place. So that they can be this unstoppable power-house ... until a priest comes along and turns then, or someone heals them or throws a bulb of garlic at their head or pulls a curtain away and blasts them with sunlight, tricks them into running water, etc, etc, etc.

Vampirism is a curse.

I feel like I'm supposed to lose. I'm the bad guy. I'm the vampire.
If I really didn't want to, I'd avoid those weaknesses like a vampire avoids the sun- Oh. Right, yeah.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by perseid » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:09 am

Hazard wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:54 am
Yeah.

Vampires come with a lot of weaknesses that can be taken advantage of in PvP.
But isn't that the point of playing a villain and a monster? To be defeated, and to have it done in a thematic lore friendly way is icing on the cake. I don't know about other people, but this is why I made a vampire in the first place. So that they can be this unstoppable power-house ... until a priest comes along and turns then, or someone heals them or throws a bulb of garlic at their head or pulls a curtain away and blasts them with sunlight, tricks them into running water, etc, etc, etc.

Vampirism is a curse.

I feel like I'm supposed to lose. I'm the bad guy. I'm the vampire.
If I really didn't want to, I'd avoid those weaknesses like a vampire avoids the sun- Oh. Right, yeah.

A weakness is not the same as what's happening here. A weakness is sneaks having to learn to use cover effectively when tailing someone because true seeing exists. This is just clerics getting to instantly delete you with the push of a button. The problem isn't that vampires have a weakness is that the weakness is crippling. There's a whole other thread about "Why tiefling" and the honest answer is that other 5%s have glaring flaws like the current state of Turn Undead and vampires.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Ork » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:34 am

Tieflings can be banished.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Skibbles » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:52 am

Disclosure: am playing a vamp pc.

Also disclosure: haven't been turned yet in pvp (besides in pve as a baby vamp) but have been rogue bombed.

I mostly agree with XXX and Aeyryn here.

Whether mortal or otherwise the vanilla fear mechanic is atrocious, however, we also can't just be letting vampires run amok either.

Vanilla fear isn't fear - the vampire doesn't run out the door into the night, hissing, they run away from the door and into the corner and then wiggle around to provoke as many attacks of opportunity as they can until they die completely out of the player's control. Riveting stuff.

When arelith finally buried vanilla fear it was one of the greatest changes ever.

I hope we can get something sufficiently crippling, dangerous, and noteworthy - but I'd also like to be able to run from it like I think a vampire actually would instead of derp around in the least plausible place or method of retreat.

So far in my experience the various immunities are pretty excellent against anyone building for yet-another-falchion BIG NUMBERS one-shot build but don't forget they're also precluding heal potions and greater restoration and have no major gifts to work with.

There are many cases where bring crit immune, which on average is most cases, is no substitute for any incoming damage, at all, if it cannot be rapidly healed.

The bonuses on the wiki, too, are not fixed, nor are they hard stats like the probably vastly superior murder-bot choice in Tiefling. The numbers go down very quickly, blood levels are exhaustingly micro-managey, so in reality you're often just a plain giftless race.

Disclosure 3: I've been doing non-pgcc arena battles semi frequently as it's part of the persona, and I think I'm at least 'okay' at pvp (if I'd had my coffee anyway), and have both won and lost against many builds some of which were melee.

Most often the discussion both IC and OOC, if I win, is that the other character didn't want to spend their heal potions. Yes, indeed, and also I'd say exactly the same thing so fair enough.

However what it also means is "I could have won if I used this widely available thing that everyone except you can use."

Which is fine. There are many costs. I don't think there's a single vampire player that would (seriously) argue that they get access to harm potions.

Vamp PCs are strong, crazy strong sometimes, but I think they're about as effective and crazy strong as many other wild and wacky builds people come up with on the reg that have their pros and cons.

Those rogue bombs though. Yikes.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by RUNGRIND » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:56 am

For those who think this is balanced.

How about we make it so mages get their full duration dominates against you?

Thats basically this but on steroids. Considering they made playing any caster that isn't a cleric basically worthless recently with how insanely good cleric is, you can't also give them a single button that lets them totally screw you over.

Nobody should be able to do that to another person. There is no investment needed other than to be a cletic, the current best caster in the game, and maybe a cha buff spell.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Dreams » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:00 am

Whilst this single ability might be a bit strong vs vampires (and fair enough that a will save gets added), vampires otherwise have a ridiculous list of benefits and very easy penalties to build around. There are so many other parts of the server's balance that still need to be reconsidered and this affects how many players? A higher end roll of a d20?

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:14 am

RUNGRIND wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:56 am
For those who think this is balanced.

How about we make it so mages get their full duration dominates against you?

Thats basically this but on steroids. Considering they made playing any caster that isn't a cleric basically worthless recently with how insanely good cleric is, you can't also give them a single button that lets them totally screw you over.

Nobody should be able to do that to another person. There is no investment needed other than to be a cletic, the current best caster in the game, and maybe a cha buff spell.
I'd be down with it not being vanilla fear. I'd also be down with the duration being nerfed. Both of these things are massive boosts in comparison to standard undead, but I understand the players wanting agency. I'd also be down with vampires getting their lore-based +4 turn resistance. (Edit: Personally, when it comes to domination spells, I do wish they lasted longer, so you actually had time to RP around them rather than use them as a kill switch, but I understand creating a system to enforce that would be an unclimbable mountain).

For the rest of your sentiment, though, sometimes, when you play a certain kind of character, it has a crippling weakness- usually lore-based ones that are meant to at least somewhat say "with things this good, we have to give it something awful." Apply this the other way around - if you were the cleric focused on turning, would you want every undead monster on the server to suddenly get an unexplained additional will save on top of the turning check? Isn't it the responsibility of the vampire to avoid drawing the attention of powerful holy priests (iconically known for being able to turn them to dust with enough faith and power) to themselves?

Turn undead being a flat check with its own table is literally a core staple of the feature - and a key weakness of the undead type to divine classes.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:25 am

RUNGRIND wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:56 am
How about we make it so mages get their full duration dominates against you?
Depending on your build a mage can fugue you in one save or die spell. Timestop is still a thing and has no counterplay either.

As others said, vampires have a huge list of immunities, so it makes sense to have a glaring vulnerability to counteract those.

If you don't like Fear, that could be replaced by Fright + Paralysis or Fright + Daze.

+4 turn resistance mentioned by Aerlyn also sounds reasonable.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by perseid » Wed Dec 08, 2021 5:22 am

Void wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:25 am
RUNGRIND wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:56 am
How about we make it so mages get their full duration dominates against you?
Depending on your build a mage can fugue you in one save or die spell. Timestop is still a thing and has no counterplay either.

As others said, vampires have a huge list of immunities, so it makes sense to have a glaring vulnerability to counteract those.

If you don't like Fear, that could be replaced by Fright + Paralysis or Fright + Daze.

+4 turn resistance mentioned by Aerlyn also sounds reasonable.
Timestop is a thing for basically anyone who cares enough to get it at this point.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by charmcaster » Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:46 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:14 am
Apply this the other way around - if you were the cleric focused on turning, would you want every undead monster on the server to suddenly get an unexplained additional will save on top of the turning check? Isn't it the responsibility of the vampire to avoid drawing the attention of powerful holy priests (iconically known for being able to turn them to dust with enough faith and power) to themselves?
Not drawing the attention of X or Y is impossible to actually manage in practice - all it takes is one person who knows that you're a vampire that has a cleric buddy or is willing to shout for one, and an axe to grind. The problem here is that the cleric isn't at an advantage, rather that he has a non-negotiable I-WIN button. That's where it begins and ends, there's no more nuance to it. The vampire gets turned, and then it dies. Riveting.

I see the comparison to the 5% save or dies (hello overbloated saves), which, yes, technically it's true. Except not really because there's no save involved at all here.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:25 pm

I support it being will save with the caveat that sun domain works properly in still damaging them even if they pass the will save. Make will save scale with power of turning with no spellcraft and it will still be very very strong.

I would also like favoured enemy undead to work against them, but that's a whole other can of worms of pve vs pvp ranger choices.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Hazard » Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:53 pm

tl;dr - vampires suck

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Skibbles » Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:22 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:25 pm
I would also like favoured enemy undead to work against them, but that's a whole other can of worms of pve vs pvp ranger choices.
From what I've seen almost every vamp is a human base, so using favored enemy human works and I doubt there's a single Ranger without that.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by LIAR LIAR » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:07 pm

Rangers also definitely pick up favored or studied enemy undead.


Try not to make claims about a race or class you haven't played. This applies to a lot of people rn toting their vampire expertise. Sorry, but they're crap and you're wrong.

The only two things of note to me about a vampire when PvPing one a few times were their movement speed bonus that so many classes get now, and their crit immunity. It prevented me from killing the vampire as long as they didn't commit. So...they couldn't kill me because they couldn't commit. Gotta love that vampire life. A build with no ac and a 2hand weapon did this.

Their lack of gifts and their soft stat bonuses are honestly like looking at a cruel joke at this informed point in the server's history. Back when they were made, mechanical knowledge was not as widely dispersed and somewhat guarded. Now everyone and their mother knows how easy it is to stack that +12 soft bonus.

Vampires need changing and old vampires deserve to be grandfathered for suffering through it. The turn should just be a debuff, sorry, this is a person's pc, not your monster in your power fantasy to do whatever you want with. Tieflings only get a debuff and when balancing a tiefling's mechanical (big) and roleplay advantages vs. a vampire, a vampire is a funny joke choice for those who want to fear mass heal.

and oh look, druids, shamans, clerics, favored souls all have...weird...hm...spells that will randomly reveal vampire pcs mid grind and also completely rko them and one spell which sets undead to 1 hit point. Sorry, you wanted clerics to be feared? I used to carry mass heal scrolls before the lore changes to ruin a vampire's day if I felt like it.

Turn undead isn't needed in this state at all.

Additional information for the uninformed: The AOE from self-cast mass heal cannot be dodged. If you git gud, you can instantly delete another player character from the server because they're a vampire

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:17 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:22 pm
and I doubt there's a single Ranger without that.
I had at least one. That was before there was a ton of studied enemies.

Undead would often make it to the favored enemy list before humans, but that depends on playstyle.
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