Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

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malcolm_mountainslayer
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:33 pm

Skibbles wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:22 pm
malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:25 pm
I would also like favoured enemy undead to work against them, but that's a whole other can of worms of pve vs pvp ranger choices.
From what I've seen almost every vamp is a human base, so using favored enemy human works and I doubt there's a single Ranger without that.
I know a few myself; and I would love to do a monster Hunter ranger that only has gobs/undead/orcs/dragons/giants/outsiders/etc.

Either way I think generic turn undead vs vampires could use some nerfing so that those who lean into it more (like sun domain and, or improved turning with buff charisma) can feel the difference too.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by CNS » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:29 pm

So a couple of people really downplaying crit immunity here, while also overplaying gifts.

If you made crit immunity a selectable gift on its own at the cost of 3ecl (no more gifts if you took it) it would become basically a standard pick.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Curve » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:35 pm

I had a vampire that I loved but I deleted him because it felt like cheating. He was too strong both in PvE and PvP. I should not have been able to play him and I think that they should be removed.

Also, the amount of work that goes into all this vampire stuff for what, seven players? Seems like a little much.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Kaeldre » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:38 pm

The vampire subrace is enjoyable because it gives tangible benefits in exchange for specific and severe drawbacks.

We should tread lightly around this fragile balance, lest both are forced to be hammered into the ground.

I think most of us understand the mechanical power of critical immunity and why it needs added shortcomings.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:26 pm

Critical immunity can be gained from PM with none of the crippling weaknesses.

But that's not really the issue. As mentioned before the issue is player agency. No one should be defenseless for 3 minutes in PvP or PvE. Everyone hated it when KD was the big thing, or Edodge made killing harder, or monk haste, or my favorite HIPS. HIPS simply broke a mages action chain. It didn't turn the mage into an uncontrollable NPC for 2-3 minutes while the player sits helplessly.

I don't want vampires immune to turning, rather it handled in a fair way.. Alot of the ideas here are good and I would think (but don't know) a simple fix.

Whether vampires are OP or not, (doesn't feel like it most days) I can't say, but I do enjoy playing one.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by chris a gogo » Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:36 pm

How about giving them -50 ab - 50 AC and 100% spell failure when turned for the duration rather than feared effect, then they can run away like they should but can't fight back against the thing that is utterly terrifying to them?

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Sincra » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:21 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Critical immunity can be gained from PM
Just want to state here I am not against changes to facilitate more meaningful implementation of turning.

However, Vampire cannot be compared with a class.
Inherently gaining an immunity vs gaining it via a class slot & levels are two distinctive processes, one of which allows 3 class slots with little to no restrictions, the other requiring one of four precursor classes, further locking down the spread.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Mattamue » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:23 pm

Edens_Fall wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Critical immunity can be gained from PM with none of the crippling weaknesses.
Gained from 10 levels of pm. That's a weakness in a lot of aspects, the very basic of which is that one of a build's 3 classes is taken up by 10 levels of 1/2 ab PM and another 3 levels of a class to qualify for PM. 100% agreed with cns.

Otherwise, I'm glad the dev team has mechanics savvy folks to look at this. Interested to see what they take away from the thread.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by MissEvelyn » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:33 pm

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:14 am
I'd be down with it not being vanilla fear. I'd also be down with the duration being nerfed. Both of these things are massive boosts in comparison to standard undead, but I understand the players wanting agency. I'd also be down with vampires getting their lore-based +4 turn resistance. (Edit: Personally, when it comes to domination spells, I do wish they lasted longer, so you actually had time to RP around them rather than use them as a kill switch, but I understand creating a system to enforce that would be an unclimbable mountain).

For the rest of your sentiment, though, sometimes, when you play a certain kind of character, it has a crippling weakness- usually lore-based ones that are meant to at least somewhat say "with things this good, we have to give it something awful." Apply this the other way around - if you were the cleric focused on turning, would you want every undead monster on the server to suddenly get an unexplained additional will save on top of the turning check? Isn't it the responsibility of the vampire to avoid drawing the attention of powerful holy priests (iconically known for being able to turn them to dust with enough faith and power) to themselves?

Turn undead being a flat check with its own table is literally a core staple of the feature - and a key weakness of the undead type to divine classes.
+1. Pretty much all this.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:54 am

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/speci ... ringUndead
Bolstering Undead

An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the Hit Dice result on Table: Turning Undead becomes the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned (provided the result is higher than the creatures’ actual Hit Dice). The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner.
Just a thought, but this is actually a standard, core mechanic of evil clerics, who are traditionally much better at manipulating the undead than arcane casters. In addition to getting rid of vanilla fear for the penalty fear of Arelith, and the +4 turn resistance, if this could be added, I think it would be a fair balance- in much the same way a vampire (or any intelligent undead) should rightfully fear holy priests, they can also benefit strongly from making allies/servants/bosses of evil priests.

Not only does this leave potential vampire PC's the thematically appropriate fear of Good clerics, but if they do engage in RP that draws the attention of one, they can also engage more people into their circle for protection from this, preserving both the weakness and encouraging an RP avenue to overcome it (or the option to build a cleric vampire, which is its own RP but less reliant on other people at the cost of character class levels)- whilst still giving them the agency to control when/how they run should they get turned.

Thoughts?
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Duchess Says » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 am

Kaeldre wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:38 pm
The vampire subrace is enjoyable because it gives tangible benefits in exchange for specific and severe drawbacks.
It's appropriate to almost every depiction of vampires too. They're powerful but they're fragile and easily killed and they're well aware of that fact. I'm not telling anyone how to play a vampire or saying this or that mechanic should stay or change but making them play cautiously and having to avoid vampire hunter clerics who can easily do them in seems appropriate.
Last edited by Duchess Says on Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Nobs » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:24 am

Wil mind protection work against it? (Mindblank - clairity)

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:59 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:54 am
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/speci ... ringUndead
Bolstering Undead

An evil cleric may also bolster undead creatures against turning in advance. He makes a turning check as if attempting to rebuke the undead, but the Hit Dice result on Table: Turning Undead becomes the undead creatures’ effective Hit Dice as far as turning is concerned (provided the result is higher than the creatures’ actual Hit Dice). The bolstering lasts 10 rounds. An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner.
Just a thought, but this is actually a standard, core mechanic of evil clerics, who are traditionally much better at manipulating the undead than arcane casters. In addition to getting rid of vanilla fear for the penalty fear of Arelith, and the +4 turn resistance, if this could be added, I think it would be a fair balance- in much the same way a vampire (or any intelligent undead) should rightfully fear holy priests, they can also benefit strongly from making allies/servants/bosses of evil priests.

Not only does this leave potential vampire PC's the thematically appropriate fear of Good clerics, but if they do engage in RP that draws the attention of one, they can also engage more people into their circle for protection from this, preserving both the weakness and encouraging an RP avenue to overcome it (or the option to build a cleric vampire, which is its own RP but less reliant on other people at the cost of character class levels)- whilst still giving them the agency to control when/how they run should they get turned.

Thoughts?
"An evil undead cleric can bolster himself in this manner."

Let the turning tug of war commence!
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Tarkus the dog » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:16 am

This has always been the case for the vampire PCs, a high CHA turn undead character simply gets to beat them by default and there used to be no counter against it. If wiki is correct, -10 to stats is much preferable than being feared forever but now you can at least pray out of it so if anything the change was a buff to the vampires. That being said I don't think vampire PCs should have a chance of being destroyed, that's just silly.

Also, when is bless weapon going to affect vampire PCs?

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by -XXX- » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:22 am

CNS wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:29 pm
So a couple of people really downplaying crit immunity here, while also overplaying gifts.

If you made crit immunity a selectable gift on its own at the cost of 3ecl (no more gifts if you took it) it would become basically a standard pick.
Not if it came with a built-in fail-proof self-destruct button that other players could push on a whim and with impunity.
Nobs wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:24 am
Wil mind protection work against it? (Mindblank - clairity)
No
That's what this thread is all about - turning trumps all forms of counterplay and it literally introduces an "I win no matter what button" dynamic.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:56 am

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:22 am
Not if it came with a built-in fail-proof self-destruct button that other players could push on a whim and with impunity.
If it comes with sneak immunity as well, I'd pick this up in many cases even with such sort of disadvantage.

Simply because for my characters pvp usually does not occur regardless of what I do, but enemy sneak attacks can quickly drain hp later on.

Then again, I always wanted to play an awakened construct, among other things.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Nobs » Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:46 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:22 am
CNS wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:29 pm
So a couple of people really downplaying crit immunity here, while also overplaying gifts.

If you made crit immunity a selectable gift on its own at the cost of 3ecl (no more gifts if you took it) it would become basically a standard pick.
Not if it came with a built-in fail-proof self-destruct button that other players could push on a whim and with impunity.
Nobs wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:24 am
Wil mind protection work against it? (Mindblank - clairity)
No
That's what this thread is all about - turning trumps all forms of counterplay and it literally introduces an "I win no matter what button" dynamic.
Dam thats sad...
Even rogues can use a scroll or potion to protect their 15 will save ;p
To every one playing a vamp , i wil feel bad for you guys if this stuff gows live.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Void » Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:55 pm

Nobs wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:46 pm
Dam thats sad...
Even rogues can use a scroll or potion to protect their 15 will save ;p
To every one playing a vamp , i wil feel bad for you guys if this stuff gows live.
It is hit-dice dependent. Clerics below certain level won't be able to turn the vampire at all.

One other way to address the vulnerability is to let the vampires and vampires alone reach level 40.

Alright, I'm kidding
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu Dec 09, 2021 2:02 pm

Nobs wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:46 pm
-XXX- wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:22 am
CNS wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:29 pm
So a couple of people really downplaying crit immunity here, while also overplaying gifts.

If you made crit immunity a selectable gift on its own at the cost of 3ecl (no more gifts if you took it) it would become basically a standard pick.
Not if it came with a built-in fail-proof self-destruct button that other players could push on a whim and with impunity.
Nobs wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 8:24 am
Wil mind protection work against it? (Mindblank - clairity)
No
That's what this thread is all about - turning trumps all forms of counterplay and it literally introduces an "I win no matter what button" dynamic.
Dam thats sad...
Even rogues can use a scroll or potion to protect their 15 will save ;p
To every one playing a vamp , i wil feel bad for you guys if this stuff gows live.
It's already live :cry:
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Dec 10, 2021 4:48 am

Theory Crafting.

Custom Feat: Mimic Life

Feasting upon the blood of the living gives vampires sustenance, and it is this mixture of life and unholy unlife contained within their body that makes them such potent undead creatures capable of retaining their sentience. Particularly gifted vampires who are well-fed may even learn to alter this balance within themselves. A vampire who is cut normally does not bleed, but a vampire choosing to mimic life restores a portion of its life functions - its heart beats (at a greatly reduced rate, but enough to fool someone checking for a pulse), it draws breath, and its blood flows. Its pale flesh takes on the flush of life, and the vampire can even taste (and enjoy) normal food and beverage for the duration, although he cannot properly digest such things and must still expel them at a later time.

During this mimicry, its tissue is reanimated, and it feels the pain of wounds as it did in life - however, in exchange, channeling positive energy to turn them, and other tactics typically employed against the undead, are less effective - the vampire becomes more resilient against turning, and even becomes able to fool themselves (with a strong enough mind) into ignoring the compelling fear associated with such actions.

This mimicry is unnatural and draining for the vampire - their blood depletes 50% faster while using this ability, and any other abilities that drain the blood meter are also 25% more expensive.

For the duration, gains
+4 turn resistance (in addition to their natural +4 turn resistance).
A will save to completely ignore an otherwise successful turning check, DC = 10 + Half the turner's cleric level + turner's charisma modifier.
A second saving throw against any spell (not turning) that would normally only affect undead or vampires (Undeath to Death, sunburst's secondary effect against vampires on a reflex save, control undead, etc.)

For the duration, loses
Immunity to critical hits
Immunity to sneak attacks
Immunity to spells and effects that only work on living targets (charm, dominate, hold).

Requirements
Race: Vampire
Level: 15
Intelligence: 13
Constitution: 13
Blood meter: 40% or higher (Activation requirement- benefits and drawbacks cease the moment the meter goes under 40%).


Full exposure to sunlight, a stake to the heart, and submersion in running water still have their normal effects.

Credit where due: I basically just translated Vampire: the Masquerade vampires' ability to mimic being alive into Arelith's system. The numbers can be adjusted as appropriate. Personally, I think my version gives too much for too little - I can't stress enough that this is like wanting to play a dragon that's immune to dragon-slaying arrows, IMO. Personally, I'm all for just doing away with the vanilla fear and calling it a day, but I'm trying to generate options outside my expectations for variety's sake.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:45 am

Side note that I thought was worth pointing out on its own post, excuse the double post.

Turning checks function in a very specific way- you can never turn an undead creature that has five more hit die than you do cleric levels (hold on, I'll get to the Sun Domain exception in a minute :geek: ), because the check for max HD affected caps at +4, no matter how high your charisma score and turning check actually goes.

This means that just adding the +4 natural turn resistance that a vampire should get results in them only being turned by a level 30 cleric (once they themselves are level 30), or a cleric as low as level 26, if they have the sun domain, and they roll well, and have an amazing charisma score, and they roll a 4 on their 1d4 for the sun domain bonus.

IF all these things are true, then a level 30 vampire might possibly be turned by a Sun Domain cleric as low as level 26.

OTHERWISE, the only person turning a level 30 vampire, would be a level 30 cleric.

And because you need a 22 or higher on the turning check to get +4, even a level 30 cleric with a +15 charisma modifier will still fail to turn said vampire on a 6 or less- which is 30% of the time.

You show me a level 30 sun domain cleric with +15 charisma, and I'd say they sort of deserve to turn a vampire to dust at some point, but that's just me. :lol:
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Kenji » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:38 am

This probably belongs in the bug report if the flee duration for a PC undead isn't the following:
The duration of the forced flight or awe is 5 rounds, plus one round per the turner's level. If the turned target is a Player Character, the duration is 5 rounds, plus one round per 7 turner's applicable levels.
as indicated on this wiki page:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Turn_Undead#Notes
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:59 am

Kenji wrote:
Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:38 am
This probably belongs in the bug report if the flee duration for a PC undead isn't the following:
The duration of the forced flight or awe is 5 rounds, plus one round per the turner's level. If the turned target is a Player Character, the duration is 5 rounds, plus one round per 7 turner's applicable levels.
as indicated on this wiki page:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Turn_Undead#Notes
I'm on the boat that it should be saveless but 5+ 1/7 lvl rounds is still too long for a spam-able ability. If it's saveless it should be no more than 3 rounds. Then it still screws the vampire pretty hard but it isnt for the (still atrocious) 8-9 rounds.

Another angle of approach would be similar to KD immunity. The vampire would have to use their Pray out of the cc, but will be immune to Turn for X time.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Kenji » Sat Dec 11, 2021 8:12 am

The Turn Immunity should be in place, as well, should one be affected by the first turn attempt. At least that's how it should work for PvE mobs when I tested it.

I imagine it's not well tested because a 6-7 round CC still meant a visit to the fugue without being able to further test the functionalities of Turn Undead.

That Will save should be considered, though. Personally, I prefer low-duration CCs and counterplay opportunities rather than save or die/CC'd forever.
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Re: Vampire PC vs Turn Undead

Post by Edens_Fall » Sat Dec 11, 2021 2:31 pm

I tested an IG item with Immunity Fear last night againist the "The Chosen" of The Last Bastion on the advice of a, dare I say awesome player. Needless to say the item didn't work as I was still turned.

Though it did make me curious to thier build and rather in awe of their able to spam cast turn. Eitherway I was saved by my escort.
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