Class design

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:54 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am
Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 am
It does sort of annoy me that classes are sometimes made or revamped, and before they feel “done”, the development folks have moved on to something else new. I understand that it’s volunteer work driven by a persons interest and desires. But that’s really the the only thing that peeves me about class design on Arelith.
I'd be curious about an example for this. User experience is important to me, so if stuff feels unfinished, I don't mind investing an hour or two and improving things.
Some of this is of course completely subjective. And some of it may be due to ignorance. In which case I apologize ahead of time!

1. Blackguard

The Aura of Despair: This ability, unlocked at 20th BG level doesn't work. It has no apparent effect in the combat log, and others have said that they tested it more thoroughly (I assume with a friend in PGCC) and have found the same. Also, if it DID work, a minus 2 to saves doesn't feel like something super useful for a BG. Almost anything else would make more sense: a fear aura (admittedly this would likely be way to powerful), -1 to AB, or to AC, or minus 1/2/3 to Discipline, or -10 to saves vs poison, or any number of other things.

Summon Undead: This class feature seems entirely "left behind" to me. A dev in a BG feedback thread I made a couple weeks ago indicated they are working on this or are planning to, which is great!

+DC to Poison: Blackguards get a bonus to ACP DCs, which is a (potentially) SUPER cool custom Arelith system. But the bonus to DC would need to be like... 2x what it is now, in order to be of any significant use. A +6 to DC brings maybe 1 or 2 of the poisons into the realm of "not fishing for a 1". IMO, a 20 or 21 DC is functionally the same as a 14 or 15 DC.

2. Spellsword

Prior to the change from path to class, I played 2 regular SSs and 2 different versions of SS/WM. Regular SS had its ups and down, and SS/WM could hit some truly hilarious damage numbers, but with massive downsides.

I have not played a new SS yet. Looking at it on paper, and seeing them in action in my party, it seems like they are way overpowered. I have been holding off on playing one because I keep thinking any day now there is going to be a significant overhaul (nerf) to them at any moment, and I prefer to wait until that sort of dust has settled. They seem to invalidate most other melee classes (other than divine melee) completely. Running epic dungeons with them in a group and seeing them take down fairly difficult bosses in 1 or 2 rounds before the rest of the party can even engage feels very "off".

I could be totally off-base in this, and maybe the team is more or less happy with where they are now! Just my gut feeling.

3. Totem Druid

This is by no means a "new" class/path, but at one point it was. And I am sure this is a VERY low or non-priority for the dev team.

There is a note on the Wiki that says "Panther Totem doesnt work, we know and are looking into it." This note is from Mithreas so I must assume its several years old. It could be that the Wiki is out of date.

I think everyone I have spoken to on the topic thinks Totem unarmed attacks should could as +(something). Not high enough to pierce premonition, but high enough that you can damage mobs that require a magical weapon. This SEEMS to me like it "should" an easy fix; but perhaps its difficult/impossible to do for some coding reasons?

4. The Arelith Custom Poison System

Obviously not a class, but this one really baffles me. Some awesome person CLEARLY put a lot of time and effort into devising this! They came up with TWENTY FIVE custom poisons, created and implemented crafting recipes, etc. But the DCs are so low, that virtually ALL of them end up as "fishing for 1s". With the aforementioned BG and Assassin bonuses, 2 or 3 of them enter the realm of "fishing for 2's/3's", only for targets with the very lowest Fort Saves. In PvE, I seriously doubt there are any mobs in the module that have low enough Fort saves to make use of poisons who you wont kill in 1 flurry or round anyway.

Then, you have the secondary effects. My understanding of how poison in general works in NWN is that if you fail the DC initially, you get the primary debuff. And then, after one turn, they make ANOTHER fort save roll and if they fail it they get the secondary debuff. So to get the secondary debuff, the target would have to roll two 5's in a row. I'm no mathematician, but in this condition, the secondary effects may as well not even exist.

Three of the poison's have NO initial effect, only a secondary. I really cannot imagine a situation in which a Player Character would even attempt to use any of these poisons. 1. Being/Finding a Poison Immune Herbalist, 2.Collecting the ingredients, some of which can be troublesome to find, 3. Crafting the poison, 4. Applying the poison, all for a 1 in 400 chance of landing a secondary effect (assuming the target doesnt clear the poison after rolling a 1 on the first fort save) truly seems like nobody would ever actually do in-game.

Again, this one isnt a class but its a system someone clearly put some serious effort into and its a shame that it is largely useless. Yes, I know that it is worth it to apply some of these poisons and fish for a 1. If your opponents fails the save, they lose 1 CON, their HP drops by 30 and their -pray heals less. But I don't think pointing that out invalidates my above points.

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Re: Class design

Post by Morgy » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:09 pm

Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am
Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 am
It does sort of annoy me that classes are sometimes made or revamped, and before they feel “done”, the development folks have moved on to something else new. I understand that it’s volunteer work driven by a persons interest and desires. But that’s really the the only thing that peeves me about class design on Arelith.
I'd be curious about an example for this. User experience is important to me, so if stuff feels unfinished, I don't mind investing an hour or two and improving things.

As someone else mentioned, Favored Soul for example feels very bland and minimal in terms of flavour, even if mechanically it can be strong. As additions it gets some energy resistances, that’s it really.

Cleric is endlessly more interesting with its base abilities and definitely the domain changes.

I imagine Shaman might be much the same, but I’ve not played one near to the same extent as a FS.

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Re: Class design

Post by Xerah » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:24 pm

The best part of shaman and favoured soul is that it is wide open in how to roleplay them.

Favoured souls are unique that you choose a god that blessed you but you don’t have to support that god’s dogma at all. The possibility of this are endless.

Same with shaman; you have so many options of where your powers came from (my character’s came from fungi and insects) that it allows you lots of space to role play.

I’ve always felt that these classes were amazingly designed for that reason.
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Re: Class design

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:50 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:24 pm
The best part of shaman and favoured soul is that it is wide open in how to roleplay them.

Favoured souls are unique that you choose a god that blessed you but you don’t have to support that god’s dogma at all. The possibility of this are endless.

Same with shaman; you have so many options of where your powers came from (my character’s came from fungi and insects) that it allows you lots of space to role play.
The point is that there's literally nothing a Shaman or Favored Soul can do that another class can't already do. They have nothing that's "their thing" in the same way that a bard sings songs or a barbarian goes beast mode. I disagree that the lack of unique flair is a selling point because anyone can be flexible within class mechanics. Fungus druids and artificer wizards have been creating compelling roleplay without explicit mechanical support for ages. FS and Shaman might incentivize certain builds through numbers and feats and synergies, but they still never feel like a unique experience. Like, narratively speaking, what can a Shaman do that a Druid+LM can't? Other than maybe stand a chance in PvP, which I guess isn't nothing to scoff at.

As interesting as the concepts may be, I feel like the creative freedom offered by the lack of identity is also the thing that holds them back from finding their full narrative potential. The classes just don't have anything they're bringing to the table that open up any new avenues of roleplay. And that's why they feel unfinished to me. They're still missing the thing that'll make them special.

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Re: Class design

Post by Xerah » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:11 pm

Another character can’t claim to be blessed by a god the same way a favoured soul can.

While I agree that you can do “fungus stuff” with other classes, shaman felt like it fit the best for my vision (because I wanted to do it with undead and divination) and I’ve previously played it as a druid before.

These are actual D&D classes that don’t have this “unique thing”. I also think a lot of the synergies do make it a unique thing compared to it published versions.
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Re: Class design

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:28 pm

I think the most important thing eventually is that every character concepts gets a proper character sheet that supports the concept as much as possible without being mechanically inferior for it. I dont think it matters how we get there as long as Balance(tm) is kept. It's okay that some classes arent entirely finished and it's okay that some classes have overlapping theme with others. If that's the easiest way to balance and design mechanics to support as many character concepts as possible, then whatever.
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Re: Class design

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Jul 02, 2022 5:29 pm

Shamans have a few huge differences. They have no obligation to care about the balance of nature and can have extreme views- you can’t play a chaotic evil demon worshipping Druid. They can summon undead and have access to a lot of arcane spells druids don’t. It plays very different than a Druid loremaster would especially if you take advantage of synergies. I personally appreciate the wide open possibilities of the class because Druid RP gets pretty constricting to me after I played a few.

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Re: Class design

Post by satan » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:51 pm

This might sound weird...hell..it feels weird to type...

But I think y'all need to slow down on the new content.

Not the new areas..that is really fine. Awesome really! But with classes. They are getting overhauled so fast..new classes being created and released live so fast with minimal testing.

Can we just let things settle a bit?
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Re: Class design

Post by Xerah » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:54 pm

:cry:
satan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:51 pm
This might sound weird...hell..it feels weird to type...

But I think y'all need to slow down on the new content.

Not the new areas..that is really fine. Awesome really! But with classes. They are getting overhauled so fast..new classes being created and released live so fast with minimal testing.

Can we just let things settle a bit?
That’s pretty boring. New content (especially new classes, abilities, items, etc) keeps things interesting. I would want it to come even quicker.
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Re: Class design

Post by garrbear758 » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:47 pm

magistrasa wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:50 pm
Xerah wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:24 pm
The best part of shaman and favoured soul is that it is wide open in how to roleplay them.

Favoured souls are unique that you choose a god that blessed you but you don’t have to support that god’s dogma at all. The possibility of this are endless.

Same with shaman; you have so many options of where your powers came from (my character’s came from fungi and insects) that it allows you lots of space to role play.
The point is that there's literally nothing a Shaman or Favored Soul can do that another class can't already do. They have nothing that's "their thing" in the same way that a bard sings songs or a barbarian goes beast mode. I disagree that the lack of unique flair is a selling point because anyone can be flexible within class mechanics. Fungus druids and artificer wizards have been creating compelling roleplay without explicit mechanical support for ages. FS and Shaman might incentivize certain builds through numbers and feats and synergies, but they still never feel like a unique experience. Like, narratively speaking, what can a Shaman do that a Druid+LM can't? Other than maybe stand a chance in PvP, which I guess isn't nothing to scoff at.

As interesting as the concepts may be, I feel like the creative freedom offered by the lack of identity is also the thing that holds them back from finding their full narrative potential. The classes just don't have anything they're bringing to the table that open up any new avenues of roleplay. And that's why they feel unfinished to me. They're still missing the thing that'll make them special.
Okay by that argument sorc shoudn't exist because it has nothing unique that wizard can't do, yet it was enough for it to be a base vanilla class.
Some classes have very strict rp, such as paladin and druid. Some offer a lot more freedom. Some fall somewhere in between. I don't really see the issue there. Classes should cater to different roleplay and having some be more open to interpretation gives you the freedom to make a unique and interesting character.
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Re: Class design

Post by magistrasa » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:56 pm

garrbear758 wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:47 pm
Okay by that argument sorc shoudn't exist because it has nothing unique that wizard can't do, yet it was enough for it to be a base vanilla class.
If we look at roleplay goodies, Sorcerer at least gets infinicasting and familiars, which at least puts it ahead of Shaman and Favored Soul. But yeah, you're right, Wizard is just flat-out cooler to roleplay. I mean, ever since I joined this server 5 years ago, I've always considered Sorcerer inferior to Wizard in terms of roleplay versatility for the very reasons I described for the other classes - no bonus feats, fewer spells to choose from, fewer skill points, fewer languages, no specialization bonuses, no spell recovery. I would 100% say that Sorcerer could use something fun added to the kit. Back when we just had base classes, you could say that its spontaneous casting was its "unique flair" - but now the feature is not the least bit special.

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Re: Class design

Post by Aren » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:54 pm
Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am
Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 am
It does sort of annoy me that classes are sometimes made or revamped, and before they feel “done”, the development folks have moved on to something else new. I understand that it’s volunteer work driven by a persons interest and desires. But that’s really the the only thing that peeves me about class design on Arelith.
I'd be curious about an example for this. User experience is important to me, so if stuff feels unfinished, I don't mind investing an hour or two and improving things.
Some of this is of course completely subjective. And some of it may be due to ignorance. In which case I apologize ahead of time!

1. Blackguard

The Aura of Despair: This ability, unlocked at 20th BG level doesn't work. It has no apparent effect in the combat log, and others have said that they tested it more thoroughly (I assume with a friend in PGCC) and have found the same. Also, if it DID work, a minus 2 to saves doesn't feel like something super useful for a BG. Almost anything else would make more sense: a fear aura (admittedly this would likely be way to powerful), -1 to AB, or to AC, or minus 1/2/3 to Discipline, or -10 to saves vs poison, or any number of other things.

Summon Undead: This class feature seems entirely "left behind" to me. A dev in a BG feedback thread I made a couple weeks ago indicated they are working on this or are planning to, which is great!

+DC to Poison: Blackguards get a bonus to ACP DCs, which is a (potentially) SUPER cool custom Arelith system. But the bonus to DC would need to be like... 2x what it is now, in order to be of any significant use. A +6 to DC brings maybe 1 or 2 of the poisons into the realm of "not fishing for a 1". IMO, a 20 or 21 DC is functionally the same as a 14 or 15 DC.
Regarding Blackguard:

Aura of Despair works now. And while it doesn't do much for a BG, it makes any spellcaster with DC spells in your group, all the more dangerous. It also makes your poisons 2DC higher.

The undead summon is about to get a slight update - I've heard talk of Epic Undead feat.

The poison DC's don't need to be higher, as they are super potent if they proc. Think of it as a 5% chance to outright force a pray or win the fight.

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:32 pm

Aren wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:54 pm
Kalopsia wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:05 am


I'd be curious about an example for this. User experience is important to me, so if stuff feels unfinished, I don't mind investing an hour or two and improving things.
Some of this is of course completely subjective. And some of it may be due to ignorance. In which case I apologize ahead of time!

1. Blackguard

The Aura of Despair: This ability, unlocked at 20th BG level doesn't work. It has no apparent effect in the combat log, and others have said that they tested it more thoroughly (I assume with a friend in PGCC) and have found the same. Also, if it DID work, a minus 2 to saves doesn't feel like something super useful for a BG. Almost anything else would make more sense: a fear aura (admittedly this would likely be way to powerful), -1 to AB, or to AC, or minus 1/2/3 to Discipline, or -10 to saves vs poison, or any number of other things.

Summon Undead: This class feature seems entirely "left behind" to me. A dev in a BG feedback thread I made a couple weeks ago indicated they are working on this or are planning to, which is great!

+DC to Poison: Blackguards get a bonus to ACP DCs, which is a (potentially) SUPER cool custom Arelith system. But the bonus to DC would need to be like... 2x what it is now, in order to be of any significant use. A +6 to DC brings maybe 1 or 2 of the poisons into the realm of "not fishing for a 1". IMO, a 20 or 21 DC is functionally the same as a 14 or 15 DC.
Regarding Blackguard:

Aura of Despair works now. And while it doesn't do much for a BG, it makes any spellcaster with DC spells in your group, all the more dangerous. It also makes your poisons 2DC higher.

The undead summon is about to get a slight update - I've heard talk of Epic Undead feat.

The poison DC's don't need to be higher, as they are super potent if they proc. Think of it as a 5% chance to outright force a pray or win the fight.
I think you might have missed the point of what I was trying to say about poison in some ways.

At the end of my post I acknowledged that fishing for a 1 has a valid and useful purpose. But also that in and of itself does not address my concern/confusion.

What about the poisons with ONLY a secondary effect (1 in 400 chance)? And in the vein of classes sometimes feeling unfinished, what’s the point of giving assassins and BGs +6 DC if that still means they are almost always fishing for a 1?

If poisons had a slightly higher DC, it would still mean that a fighter or rogue has a 5 percent chance of landing it. But it would mean that BGs and assassins have a 10 or 15 percent chance.

Giving a class a custom ability related to a custom system that has virtually no application makes the class and system feel unfinished, vestigial, overlooked.

That’s my point.

I’m not necessarily trying to make an argument on behalf of buffing poison. But the combination of factors makes it feel like this ability was slapped onto BG and Assassin, perhaps with a”we will revisit this and make it useful later”.

Good to know about Aura and Undead. Was there some update that mentioned the aura thing?

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Re: Class design

Post by Aren » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:59 am

Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:32 pm
Aren wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:36 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:54 pm


Some of this is of course completely subjective. And some of it may be due to ignorance. In which case I apologize ahead of time!

1. Blackguard

The Aura of Despair: This ability, unlocked at 20th BG level doesn't work. It has no apparent effect in the combat log, and others have said that they tested it more thoroughly (I assume with a friend in PGCC) and have found the same. Also, if it DID work, a minus 2 to saves doesn't feel like something super useful for a BG. Almost anything else would make more sense: a fear aura (admittedly this would likely be way to powerful), -1 to AB, or to AC, or minus 1/2/3 to Discipline, or -10 to saves vs poison, or any number of other things.

Summon Undead: This class feature seems entirely "left behind" to me. A dev in a BG feedback thread I made a couple weeks ago indicated they are working on this or are planning to, which is great!

+DC to Poison: Blackguards get a bonus to ACP DCs, which is a (potentially) SUPER cool custom Arelith system. But the bonus to DC would need to be like... 2x what it is now, in order to be of any significant use. A +6 to DC brings maybe 1 or 2 of the poisons into the realm of "not fishing for a 1". IMO, a 20 or 21 DC is functionally the same as a 14 or 15 DC.
Regarding Blackguard:

Aura of Despair works now. And while it doesn't do much for a BG, it makes any spellcaster with DC spells in your group, all the more dangerous. It also makes your poisons 2DC higher.

The undead summon is about to get a slight update - I've heard talk of Epic Undead feat.

The poison DC's don't need to be higher, as they are super potent if they proc. Think of it as a 5% chance to outright force a pray or win the fight.
I think you might have missed the point of what I was trying to say about poison in some ways.

At the end of my post I acknowledged that fishing for a 1 has a valid and useful purpose. But also that in and of itself does not address my concern/confusion.

What about the poisons with ONLY a secondary effect (1 in 400 chance)? And in the vein of classes sometimes feeling unfinished, what’s the point of giving assassins and BGs +6 DC if that still means they are almost always fishing for a 1?

If poisons had a slightly higher DC, it would still mean that a fighter or rogue has a 5 percent chance of landing it. But it would mean that BGs and assassins have a 10 or 15 percent chance.

Giving a class a custom ability related to a custom system that has virtually no application makes the class and system feel unfinished, vestigial, overlooked.

That’s my point.

I’m not necessarily trying to make an argument on behalf of buffing poison. But the combination of factors makes it feel like this ability was slapped onto BG and Assassin, perhaps with a”we will revisit this and make it useful later”.

Good to know about Aura and Undead. Was there some update that mentioned the aura thing?
Nah, it wasn’t posted on the announcements page.
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Re: Class design

Post by Security_Blanket » Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:53 am

My main character for the longest time was a Favored Soul, it is a decent class but there is no denying that when compared to many of the other classes available, it is incredibly bland. You get some damage resistance and spontaneous casting, that's it, maybe it's seen as super useful mechanically, and it does come in handy, but it is so very boring. You don't get even a single domain, you can't even consecrate altars without spending a Gift on it. Unless you specifically wanted to play a character with that particular RP background, you're much better off going Cleric. To me, it is still an incomplete class and the best example of a class that was left alone after introduction to move on to more and more classes. Invisible Blades, Invokers, Sailboats even, when is some attention going to be given back to the mundane classes? Where's the love for Rogue and Fighters? Are they just obsolete classes now?

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:53 am
My main character for the longest time was a Favored Soul, it is a decent class but there is no denying that when compared to many of the other classes available, it is incredibly bland. You get some damage resistance and spontaneous casting, that's it, maybe it's seen as super useful mechanically, and it does come in handy, but it is so very boring. You don't get even a single domain, you can't even consecrate altars without spending a Gift on it. Unless you specifically wanted to play a character with that particular RP background, you're much better off going Cleric. To me, it is still an incomplete class and the best example of a class that was left alone after introduction to move on to more and more classes. Invisible Blades, Invokers, Sailboats even, when is some attention going to be given back to the mundane classes? Where's the love for Rogue and Fighters? Are they just obsolete classes now?
In my opinion, fighter seems like a good example of a class that DOES feel complete.

Arelith has added a complete scheme of mechanical bonuses that scale through levels with benefits that are all relevant and useful.

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Re: Class design

Post by Itikar » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:36 pm

Sometimes feeling complete does not mean it also cannot feel bland. I feel that way toward monk, for instance, because while it is well thought and developed, no question there, it feels like there is just one way to play it and that's it. I would rather prefer it to be more similar to warlock with multiple paths that cater to different playstyles, as I would find such an approach more fitting for a class that should embody a spectrum of monastic traditions with different outlooks and approaches. Well, I guess there is monk/shaman which provides an alternative path to an extent, but that still feels limited compared to monks on other servers where I played.

Sorcerer then, it has just divine sorcerer, and apart for that the class is pretty much a wizard minus. Every time I stumble across Pathfinder stuff with its cool sorcerer bloodlines I feel sad for our sorcerers.

That said developing classes is difficult, challenging, and often perceived as a thankless job, so there is really no expectation from me for anything to happen, other than the already announced revamps like shadowdancer or blackguard spellbook. Just voicing some impressions and views on some of the classes I personally find uninspiring at present.

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Re: Class design

Post by Security_Blanket » Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:53 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm
In my opinion, fighter seems like a good example of a class that DOES feel complete.
I'm not of the same opinion, I don't know for certain, but I'd wager Fighter is mostly used as a dip rather than a 25+ level investment. 4 Fighter will get you 3 feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies, and opens up Weapon Specialization, you can get away with splashing Fighter in a lot of builds, but less cookies for a heavy investment in Fighter. Compare the Pure Fighter to the Pure Warlock, the Pure Druid, the Pure Barbarian even. You get a lot of breathing room thanks to access to all the feats, realistically, there are more Fighter Feats available then there are useful Fighter feats in the game. Fighter is the class that would most benefit from path options, in my humble opinion. Wizard Slayer for instance, or give Rogues a Path of the Artificer. We need less class options and more synergy among classes that currently exist. Cavaliers and Knights benefiting from Fighter levels (or partial levels) towards their Fighter AC, Damage, and Weapon bonuses, for instance.

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:23 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:53 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm
In my opinion, fighter seems like a good example of a class that DOES feel complete.
I'm not of the same opinion, I don't know for certain, but I'd wager Fighter is mostly used as a dip rather than a 25+ level investment. 4 Fighter will get you 3 feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies, and opens up Weapon Specialization, you can get away with splashing Fighter in a lot of builds, but less cookies for a heavy investment in Fighter. Compare the Pure Fighter to the Pure Warlock, the Pure Druid, the Pure Barbarian even. You get a lot of breathing room thanks to access to all the feats, realistically, there are more Fighter Feats available then there are useful Fighter feats in the game. Fighter is the class that would most benefit from path options, in my humble opinion. Wizard Slayer for instance, or give Rogues a Path of the Artificer. We need less class options and more synergy among classes that currently exist. Cavaliers and Knights benefiting from Fighter levels (or partial levels) towards their Fighter AC, Damage, and Weapon bonuses, for instance.
There are a ton of builds that use deep fighter or moderate fighter levels, ranging from "decent" to "very good"

25 fighter 5 WM
25 fighter 5 Loremaster
20 fighter 7 WM 3 rogue
20-something fighter, 3-6 pal/BG, rogue
20 fighter, 7 WM, 3 pal/BG
Various Cav builds that take 10+ fighter lvls alongside 10 Cav lvls

Those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head.

You can even play a 30 fighter. Thats a functional build but boring and not great by any means.

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Re: Class design

Post by fading » Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:44 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:23 pm
Security_Blanket wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:53 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:01 pm
In my opinion, fighter seems like a good example of a class that DOES feel complete.
I'm not of the same opinion, I don't know for certain, but I'd wager Fighter is mostly used as a dip rather than a 25+ level investment. 4 Fighter will get you 3 feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies, and opens up Weapon Specialization, you can get away with splashing Fighter in a lot of builds, but less cookies for a heavy investment in Fighter. Compare the Pure Fighter to the Pure Warlock, the Pure Druid, the Pure Barbarian even. You get a lot of breathing room thanks to access to all the feats, realistically, there are more Fighter Feats available then there are useful Fighter feats in the game. Fighter is the class that would most benefit from path options, in my humble opinion. Wizard Slayer for instance, or give Rogues a Path of the Artificer. We need less class options and more synergy among classes that currently exist. Cavaliers and Knights benefiting from Fighter levels (or partial levels) towards their Fighter AC, Damage, and Weapon bonuses, for instance.
You can even play a 30 fighter. Thats a functional build but boring and not great by any means.
That's sort of the problem, isn't it? It's great that classes like fighter incentivize dipping into other classes, but they do so because fighter is very dull by itself, rather than any cool synergies.

Fighters are decent, but you know what? So were paladins, and they had an update that gave them mechanical diversity, even though they were already far more mechanically compelling before the update.

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:13 pm

fading wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:44 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:23 pm
Security_Blanket wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:53 pm


I'm not of the same opinion, I don't know for certain, but I'd wager Fighter is mostly used as a dip rather than a 25+ level investment. 4 Fighter will get you 3 feats, plus armor and weapon proficiencies, and opens up Weapon Specialization, you can get away with splashing Fighter in a lot of builds, but less cookies for a heavy investment in Fighter. Compare the Pure Fighter to the Pure Warlock, the Pure Druid, the Pure Barbarian even. You get a lot of breathing room thanks to access to all the feats, realistically, there are more Fighter Feats available then there are useful Fighter feats in the game. Fighter is the class that would most benefit from path options, in my humble opinion. Wizard Slayer for instance, or give Rogues a Path of the Artificer. We need less class options and more synergy among classes that currently exist. Cavaliers and Knights benefiting from Fighter levels (or partial levels) towards their Fighter AC, Damage, and Weapon bonuses, for instance.
You can even play a 30 fighter. Thats a functional build but boring and not great by any means.
That's sort of the problem, isn't it? It's great that classes like fighter incentivize dipping into other classes, but they do so because fighter is very dull by itself, rather than any cool synergies.

Fighters are decent, but you know what? So were paladins, and they had an update that gave them mechanical diversity, even though they were already far more mechanically compelling before the update.
Fighter also had an update. It was just slightly longer ago.

The vast majority of classes are more interesting and better when you at least dip something.

Classes that make sense to play as pure 30 are the unusual ones.

Fighter synergies well with virtually ever other melee class in the game. That’s sort of the whole point of fighter lol

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Re: Class design

Post by Security_Blanket » Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:31 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:13 pm
Fighter synergies well with virtually ever other melee class in the game. That’s sort of the whole point of fighter lol
Fighters are suppose to be THE martial class though, they don't get spells and divine assistance like Paladins, they don't bonuses from anger issues like Barbarians, they don't get to hide in the bushes like Rangers, nor do they get any summons. They're your soldiers, your common guards, your common thugs, your man at arms, those niches end up being filled by every other class that's given more attractive cookies. You have to dip into another martial class if you even want to use wands.

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Re: Class design

Post by Arienette » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:26 pm

Security_Blanket wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:31 pm
Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 6:13 pm
Fighter synergies well with virtually ever other melee class in the game. That’s sort of the whole point of fighter lol
Fighters are suppose to be THE martial class though, they don't get spells and divine assistance like Paladins, they don't bonuses from anger issues like Barbarians, they don't get to hide in the bushes like Rangers, nor do they get any summons. They're your soldiers, your common guards, your common thugs, your man at arms, those niches end up being filled by every other class that's given more attractive cookies. You have to dip into another martial class if you even want to use wands.
I listed a bunch of fighter builds above that are all solid and fill those niches. I guess you are just going to ignore that?

Doesn't seem like we have enough common ground to have a fruitful discussion about this; for example, your opinion that fighter is "supposed to be THE martial class" seems like its coming from your own head-canon. And this is probably not even the appropriate thread to debate about the Arelith Fighter class anyway.

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Re: Class design

Post by Security_Blanket » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:05 pm

Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:26 pm
I listed a bunch of fighter builds above that are all solid and fill those niches. I guess you are just going to ignore that?
And I said that you're forced to dip for anything good, which you yourself said.
Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:23 pm
You can even play a 30 fighter. Thats a functional build but boring and not great by any means.

Arienette wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:26 pm
And this is probably not even the appropriate thread to debate about the Arelith Fighter class anyway.

It's not just Fighters, that applies to Rogues as well. Which are a at least two of the classes that come to mind, especially when areas are added and updated to be tougher because the new class updates have left areas too easy for those classes.

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Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."


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Re: Class design

Post by satan » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:59 pm

Xerah wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:54 pm
:cry:
satan wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:51 pm
This might sound weird...hell..it feels weird to type...

But I think y'all need to slow down on the new content.

Not the new areas..that is really fine. Awesome really! But with classes. They are getting overhauled so fast..new classes being created and released live so fast with minimal testing.

Can we just let things settle a bit?
That’s pretty boring. New content (especially new classes, abilities, items, etc) keeps things interesting. I would want it to come even quicker.
And what of balance? Surely you are aware that it takes time to get right.
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