Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

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TurningLeaf
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by TurningLeaf » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:53 pm

Xerah wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:25 pm
The new patch will allow the following:

Added a server setting to disable player join messages

Which would probably be a good thing to disable.

Incase anyone is confused about this new patch:

Beamdog is not paying people to work on it
People are working on it for free (i.e. Liareth)
It will be added as an official patch made by the community (even though a bunch of them got paid for doing this before)
Wow that's amazing news, incredible community. Does the team working on it have a site?
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Ork » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:16 pm

It would be nice to have a more sophisticated system for feedback of abilities. Give people a spellcraft roll, or a lore roll, or a spot roll for detecting abilities otherwise it just says "Gordak is attempting a spell or spell-like ability. Gordak casts a spell or spell-like ability." Could also tie the system to silent + still spell metamagic to increase the DC to detect the ability or something.

Imagine how many warlocks would be saved from getting exiled/bodied from Cordor.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Eyeliner » Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:40 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:41 pm
"On the ley" is super lame. I don't even know what that means. Often times, attempting to create IC justifications for server mechanics will always, always risk metagaming.
"Ley lines" aren't an Arelith invention, the concept exists in D&D and other fantasy properties and it's not any more nonsense than anything else magic related. How scrying vs player lists is handled is one thing but I don't think it's fair to accuse players using that explanation of not being creative.

Most of us are genuinely doing the best we can with the tools we have and it's so disheartening to read the forums when anything someone doesn't agree with or rankles a pet peeve is called malicious. If we're not allowed to use the words "ley lines" that should be made clear but otherwise a 40 int wizard or 80 lore loremaster trying to play their character is probably going to want to do more than say "I dunno" when scrying fails and reach for an explanation.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by WanderingPoet » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:46 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:40 pm
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:41 pm
"On the ley" is super lame. I don't even know what that means. Often times, attempting to create IC justifications for server mechanics will always, always risk metagaming.
"Ley lines" aren't an Arelith invention, the concept exists in D&D and other fantasy properties and it's not any more nonsense than anything else magic related. How scrying vs player lists is handled is one thing but I don't think it's fair to accuse players using that explanation of not being creative.

Most of us are genuinely doing the best we can with the tools we have and it's so disheartening to read the forums when anything someone doesn't agree with or rankles a pet peeve is called malicious. If we're not allowed to use the words "ley lines" that should be made clear but otherwise a 40 int wizard or 80 lore loremaster trying to play their character is probably going to want to do more than say "I dunno" when scrying fails and reach for an explanation.
This, is well said, Eyeliner.

Leylines are in published books IC, leylines are what characters learn from other characters, leylines are what appear in DM events. To trivialize people's RP and call them cheaters or 'super lame' because you disagree with the approach people take is pretty toxic, especially when there is often a ton of RP around their learning about magic. Especially when the mechanics of the abilities specifically calls out the effect, and magic isn't a mysterious voodoo art that a trained mage has no understanding of.

I agree that some people abuse things, I agree that some people misuse things, and I agree that some people are cheaters and toxic and have to just -win-. But it's incredibly and excessively rude to continuously push the false narrative that people that disagree with you are malicious or somehow trying to one up others or are lousy RPers. I get that you have had personal bad experiences, but the vast majority of players don't, and the vast majority are not out to get you and just want to play and have fun building stories together.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:50 pm

Eyeliner wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:40 pm
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:41 pm
"On the ley" is super lame. I don't even know what that means. Often times, attempting to create IC justifications for server mechanics will always, always risk metagaming.
"Ley lines" aren't an Arelith invention, the concept exists in D&D and other fantasy properties and it's not any more nonsense than anything else magic related. How scrying vs player lists is handled is one thing but I don't think it's fair to accuse players using that explanation of not being creative.

Most of us are genuinely doing the best we can with the tools we have and it's so disheartening to read the forums when anything someone doesn't agree with or rankles a pet peeve is called malicious. If we're not allowed to use the words "ley lines" that should be made clear but otherwise a 40 int wizard or 80 lore loremaster trying to play their character is probably going to want to do more than say "I dunno" when scrying fails and reach for an explanation.
I don't mean to accuse anyone of malicious intentions- I don't have a horse in the race, all my characters have scrying counters. (While we're at it, can we start a side discussion about how utterly silly it is that because I've been here for 8 years I can start building a new character with that knowledge in mind, but if I put the information here in this post people will come behind me and delete it proclaiming FOIG, which allows the new players to suffer in mechanical ignorance?)

However, since we're referencing a wizard or loremaster with 40 int and 80 lore as the standard, and they apparently know all about spellcraft and how to scry (along with various other magical tidbits of knowledge) why is the first assumption that the character reaches "oh, they must be on a different ley line," rather than "oh, they must be warded against scrying?"

The answer is because as soon as you say someone must be warded against scrying it doesn't make sense to hunt them down on another server (much less piss away 5 more spell components on a target that you should now by all IC rights believe is warded).

To be clear, I have nothing against people doing a little behind the scenes green text to save two hours on organizing a writ group.

However, one of these things is not like the other. "Not on the ley" is an excuse to hop servers and find a player that may not want to be found. There is no tabletop lore to support a failure in scrying somehow making it easier for you to find someone IC - and to the people in the back frantically waving their hands saying 'this isn't tabletop,' no, it isn't, but the DM's have just told us they don't want this in Arelith, either, which deprives the argument of any viable source to root from.

You do not need this excuse to hop servers and send your friend a tell or a discord message to do a writ together. You only need it to justify looking for someone you can't get a location from willingly, like a gank victim, who will never in their right minds tell you where they are when they're being hunted by a dozen people.

TL;DR
Nothing is lost from assuming the person is warded rather than on a different server, except the ability to chase someone down through means the team has specifically indicated are in poor taste. The word ley line should never be used with scrying, because it only serves an enabling purpose that can be achieved through a half-dozen other methods without the same problems.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Hazard » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:28 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:41 pm
"On the ley" is super lame. I don't even know what that means.
Yes you do.

Refering to 'on this side of the leylines' will continue until the in-game feedback is changed.
It isn't a defense of the situation to point this out, it's just the reality of it.

Arelith has encouraged a mechanics first WYSIWYG attitude among enough of its players that won't bother with/notice the announcement, and policing each and every individual slip up would just take too much effort over too long a period of time to be worth it.

The quickest way to fix what we're getting, in my opinion, is to change what we're seeing.
This is a very wide-spread IC explanation and while I appreciate and agree with the announcement, I don't think it will change anything anytime soon (unfortunately).

Just like players still say 'Death is meaningless here. It works different. No one stays dead.' despite not being allowed to, they're going to keep refering to leylines while the game keeps giving the same feedback.

That is my opinion.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Ork » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:57 am

There is nothing wrong with referencing leylines. There is a problem referencing leylines to discuss when players aren't online or on a different server. Saying "they're not on the ley" is not an accurate representation of what could be blocking the success of a scry/teleport. We have -ward, we have locations that block teleport/scry. If you're using -playerlist and the portal to determine if your ability is going to be successful, at least do us the decency of keeping it to yourself and using a different roleplay response.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:16 am

On the leyline is a pretty good use of magic roleplay. I’ll still be using it.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:20 am

I’ve been hearing the leyline references for years and never thought it was a problem. Our characters don’t know what servers are or why there’s mechanical stuff that happens when you crossed them and it seems to me blaming ley lines, an established D&D thing, makes perfect sense.

I’m not arguing with any DM who says don’t do that but I also don’t think a player who thought it was okay before this announcement was a cheater or exploiter. That’s a rule so Arelith specific you’d never pick it up on your own and even asking about it would probably get shrugs. It’s still a grey area because what you can and can’t do comes down to judgement. That's the thing about Arelith, a lot of the rules aren't intuitive and you can play here for many years and still not be clear on whether some of this stuff is okay or not.

Mostly I’m just saying cut people some slack. The forums don’t need to be nearly as harsh as they are and most of us are doing our best.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:52 pm

Remove Scry.


But on a serious note, since scry wont be removed... ever.. *sniff*, I think the DM announcement really sums it up very well and properly simplified. All of these examples you all bring up in the posts above me are all perfectly legit or entirely malicious, depending on who is doing it, and why, and what they are gaining from it. So it really boils down to, if you're meta-gaming, do it in a way that wouldnt upset you if you were on the receiving end of the same action. I dont feel like simplifying it even more would be useful, and might even end up with players playing scared of upsetting others if we over simplify it.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by chris a gogo » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:01 pm

Unread post by Ork » 05 Aug 2022 21:21

Yeah see that's the thing- "on the ley" wasn't created to answer questions about teleport travel. "On the ley" was created to provide a mechanical advantage for individuals using scry/teleport. Don't be disheartened to read that some of us happen to not like cheaters.
What rubbish, it's no more cheating then telling someone they have to get a boat to sibayad so we can teleport to you to a location or go to Cordor and we will bring you to us via -yoink, it's a way around a mechanical limitation that wouldn't exist if the game world was on a single server.

So saying someone isn't on the ley is an IC way of saying scry won't work due to mechanical OOC limits not IC ones.
After all if they are on the same server the ability tells you when they are warded against it.

Just playing devils advocate here of course I hate the term on the ley, but it doesn't alter the fact that if it is cheating then every other positive use of metagaming to get around the multiple server issue is also cheating.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by -XXX- » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:23 pm

While the way that the servers are set up and separated presents us with an objective OOC obstackle that occasionally needs to be addressed IC, taking the WYS/WYG concept too far to do that can sometimes lead to stuff like:

"My character can -scry/-yoink so they are aware of the player list IC at all times, even without actually bothering to use any of those abilities."

Turns out that characters can obtain all sorts of meta superpowers when enough mental gymnastics get applied.
Last edited by -XXX- on Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Amateur Hour » Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:37 pm

It seems utterly ridiculous from an IC perspective that people have been able to summon, scry, etc. for decades within certain boundaries but not across them, but no one would ever try to come up with some kind of theory for why. The idea that there's barriers in the Weave that some magic can't cross is very reasonable to the point where it shouldn't take YEARS for someone to come up with the theory. "They're not on the ley" is basically "They're either moving around outside of the barriers we're within, or they're nowhere to be found."
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Ork » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:01 pm

chris a gogo wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:01 pm
So saying someone isn't on the ley is an IC way of saying scry won't work due to mechanical OOC limits not IC ones.
AKA cheating. Use the ability if you're asked in game and when it fails just say it fails. What you shouldn't do is refuse to do the -scry because your target is not on the playerlist and saying "they're not on the ley". It's cheating and metagaming.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Red_Wharf » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:20 pm

People are seriously defending "on the ley" rp? what

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by IanPatron » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:40 pm

I'm sorry this is ridiculous.

The idea of leylines is actually a brilliant idea to explain game mechanics in a fantasy world.

IG the world is not separated by servers, technically those targets of scry/yoink in a perfect world should be available 24/7 and from anywhere. However we are limited by player times, servers, and other constraints. Finding an IG logical explanation should be commended.

Oh and DO NOT remove Scry. Best mechanic in the game, period.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by AstralUniverse » Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:59 pm

I'm not going to invest myself into this argument very deeply but I'm going to say that *not* using -scry and already knowing your target is unreachable through the playerlist is 100% meta-gaming. If someone said something like "they're not on the ley" IC I would instantly assume they've already attempted to scry, otherwise it's indeed cheating.

All that said, I dont think this is a huge problem until the person being scried doesnt want to be scried and then this small cheating turns into a serious unfair advantage. So once more, when you're meta-gaming consider how the other side would feel about it and dont gain unfair advantages.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Tesla420 » Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:52 pm

Seems very unfair to call people cheaters when a fact nobody has mentioned is, That GSF illusion/couriers/wisp-bottles -can- move between servers.

So what is the explanation when you cannot -yoink someone who you just sent a illusion across servers? What is the IC /play it cool/ 50RPR roleplay solution when asked about it? Pretty much just say, /Magic./

Otherwise, what is the alternative when your best pal sends you a courier saying "Hello x, please -yoink me so I may join you on your merry quest." and they are not on the same server? Just seems like roleplay is about compromise and so we should help our fellow role-player when they try to explain something that - I would hate to remind people is in fact. Not real and entirely fictional.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Hazard » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:04 pm

Tesla420 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 7:52 pm
... is in fact. Not real and entirely fictional.
waitwhat

:shock:

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Ork » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:23 pm

IanPatron wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:40 pm
Finding an IG logical explanation should be commended.
There are plenty of reasons a scry/teleport don't work as was already said ad nauseum. "Off the ley" is as equally bad a descriptor as why an individual is not available. Where might these people be if they're "off the ley"? In their beds in the arcane tower? I have seen players say, directly after the known player name has joined, "ah I see Xerxes is back on the ley, I'll see if I can't teleport him to our location." You're not granted the means to determine that in character from accessing the playerlist. It is cheating, and it is especially alarming when it occurs to the disadvantage of an adversarial party - such as "yes! Jones is back on the ley - just in time for him to protect us from this raid!"

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:50 pm

I'm surprised at the amount of people upset that they now have to say "The spell isn't working" instead of "I can't detect them" or "They're not on the ley".

The only thing I want out of this thread is for spell failure messages to be made all the same, especially with -yoink since people use it to be jerks to people who refuse summons for RP reasons.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:10 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:50 pm
I'm surprised at the amount of people upset that they now have to say "The spell isn't working" instead of "I can't detect them" or "They're not on the ley".
This is not true at all. The reminder message does not say that people can't use that phrase.
Using the player-list to 'sense' if someone is a certain area or call it "on the same ley" is not a valid method of RP, especially when this is to the detriment of the other PCs involved.
People can still use the phrase.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Xerah » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:12 pm

Also, stop with the "YOU'RE A CHEATER" proclamations.

If you have something valid to report, then do so in a direct message to the DMs, otherwise, stop policing.

Further comments regarding this will be removed and warnings will be given.
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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by Eyeliner » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:18 pm

I could care less about whether we can use "the ley" or not and will do whatever the DMs ask.

I think the amount of anger towards those who were doing it before the ruling is uncalled for. There's a tendency to get so wrapped up in a game community you have no empathy towards those who don't think like you do or genuinely didn't know or see why something like referencing the players list, etc would be an issue when it wouldn't be a big deal in other games. Calling someone a cheater or exploiter for using mechanics as-is (and not understanding you're supposed to actively avoid doing that) is as toxic as anything they were doing. We blow up pet peeves into far bigger problems than they ought to be especially on the forum.

I get why it's a rule and it makes sense and I'll follow it just wish the rage was toned down a notch, I don't think most players doing this were bad actors they were just trying to play the game and didn't know it was a problem.

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Re: Discussion: Metagaming and IC/OOC confusion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:45 pm

Using the phrase 'on the lay' is not neccesarly a big deal. If thats' what you want to use go for it. I know I've used it myself In game. Though if you're being classy saying 'I just can't sense them' is often better, as your pc may not know if they are even 'online' - even if you do yourself ooc. But also this is a bit of a problem of functionality and personally (and this is where I will confess I myself don't see it as a huge deal.)

That said, metagaming someone is on the player list to scry/yoink them is also, oddly enough, not neccesarly terrible. It's not great form, but honestly also not the worse thing in the world. So long as you're not doing it for reasons to their, or those around them detriment. (In terms of yoink, I do recall a time when I was, player side, escorting a prisoner across a server transtion to a secure location. No sooner had they crossed the transtion, when someone imediatly -yoinked them. That to me is an example of poor metagaming, though it comes up less than scry.)

What we REALLY don't want to see is scrying someone within a few minutes of them logging in/joining the server so you can send out murder squads after them. Or someone doing the above -yoink situation.

This is a difficult thing for us to police, so mostly this really comes down to a request for good form. I won't personally complain if someone scries on my pc so they can meet up asap, or someone sends yout a yoink as soon as I've hopped servers, for a super quick meetup. Great rp? Nah but not the worst thing in the world - and as I said, rather difficult for us to police at present anyway.

But if they abuse the server lists to do something to my detriment (as the examples listed above) then yeah, thats when we have issues.
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