Excessive Fixtures

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Ruzuke
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:55 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Ruzuke » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:05 pm

I have had 20 fixtures stolen. I replace them and I have the buildup of materials everywhere so I can replace them. Originally, I only placed on fixture. It was stolen. Because that same 24-hour rule which some delight in stealing the same fixture every single day I placed more. Sometimes 3-4 in the same zone so it will take a week to steal all of them.

Edit: They used to have descriptions. After replacing 20 they just get names now.

AstralUniverse
Posts: 2286
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:08 pm

Exercise your free will and democratic rights by destroying unnecessary fixtures according to what the rules permit you, one fixture at a time towards a better world.
Xerah wrote: Everyone has said enough here and AstralUniverse summed it up best.
Tarkus the dog wrote: marauder is weak and the earth is flat

Amateur Hour
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 1:50 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Amateur Hour » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:26 pm

Ruzuke wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:05 pm
I have had 20 fixtures stolen. I replace them and I have the buildup of materials everywhere so I can replace them. Originally, I only placed on fixture. It was stolen. Because that same 24-hour rule which some delight in stealing the same fixture every single day I placed more. Sometimes 3-4 in the same zone so it will take a week to steal all of them.

Edit: They used to have descriptions. After replacing 20 they just get names now.
I think you are missing the point here: that just because you want a fixture placed in a particular location doesn't mean most other people agree with you.
Rolled: Solveigh Arnimayne, Amisra Durothil, , "Anna Locksley"
Shelved: Ninim Elario
Current: Ynge Redbeard, ???

ElvenEdibles
Posts: 107
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:32 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by ElvenEdibles » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:23 pm

Tragedy of the Commons

perseid
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:01 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by perseid » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:32 pm

As an opposing view, I find most areas are fine or filled with fixtures that add character rather than subtract. Usually I find the opposite problem to be the case, where I'm going through a well designed area with no fixtures and all I can think is "Look at all the effort wasted just for this to become a passover destination".

User avatar
In Sorrow We Trust
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 618
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by In Sorrow We Trust » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:45 pm

LichBait wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:48 pm
Wilderness fixture decay would be neat.
bears come out of the trees and bash fixtures at random
Player Of...
πŸ’€ Holly Holtz
🎻 Giselle d'Lavigne
⛩️ Satomi Yozakura
πŸ—‘οΈ Tokino Chinami

stoneheart-
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:07 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by stoneheart- » Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:50 pm

perseid wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:32 pm
As an opposing view, I find most areas are fine or filled with fixtures that add character rather than subtract. Usually I find the opposite problem to be the case, where I'm going through a well designed area with no fixtures and all I can think is "Look at all the effort wasted just for this to become a passover destination".
You might think that it's a "waste", but in reality a lot of people go to nice wilderness spots to RP, and then leave. a place doesn't need tables and chairs to be not a "waste".

Beautiful areas are their own reward. Please just let other players just experience them as they were meant to be experienced and keep fixture clutter to a respectful and fitting minimum.

cool: a 5-piece altar setup
rude: constructing an entire "house" with ill-fitting furniture in a wilderness area

perseid
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 7:01 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by perseid » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:00 pm

stoneheart- wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:50 pm
perseid wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:32 pm
As an opposing view, I find most areas are fine or filled with fixtures that add character rather than subtract. Usually I find the opposite problem to be the case, where I'm going through a well designed area with no fixtures and all I can think is "Look at all the effort wasted just for this to become a passover destination".
You might think that it's a "waste", but in reality a lot of people go to nice wilderness spots to RP, and then leave. a place doesn't need tables and chairs to be not a "waste".

Beautiful areas are their own reward. Please just let other players just experience them as they were meant to be experienced and keep fixture clutter to a respectful and fitting minimum.

cool: a 5-piece altar setup
rude: constructing an entire "house" with ill-fitting furniture in a wilderness area
I'm certainly not arguing against the idea lots of people do come/go rp in a lot of open areas but my own experience has been that fixture presence is both a sign of interest in an area and at times a driver of interest in areas. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any consideration for keeping fixture counts in an area to a polite volumes, I simply meant that I felt some posts are treating player made fixtures as inherently a nuisance which I disagree with as it's akin to treating rpers themselves as a nuisance which needs to be worked around.

Azensor
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:14 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Azensor » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:10 pm

In Sorrow We Trust wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:45 pm
LichBait wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:48 pm
Wilderness fixture decay would be neat.
bears come out of the trees and bash fixtures at random
Only if theres a 1% chance of werebears coming out and repairing fixtures :D

Richrd
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:03 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Richrd » Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:51 pm

I 100% agree with OP, there have always been certain areas with too many fixtures.

To me an area spammed with fixtures is not interesting. No matter if the fixtures are hyper-customized or left as they come out of the carpenter workbench. I don't stop and read the custom description of every single chair, no matter how detailed it is or how intricate the carving on it is supposed to be.

The truth of the matter is that I simply can not care. It's related to the issue of "if everybody is special nobody is".
If there's fantastically crafted and perfectly looking chairs, couches and road signs everywhere then they just became mundane clutter. Save the work for the big landmark type fixtures, I bet not just I but also many others are too busy actually RPing or reading characters rather than chairs that have been placed several IRL months ago.


What would I suggest (I know, an unveiled suggestion in the feedback forum, yikes) to fix this?
Announce that there'll be a clean-up on X date so players have time to rescue the fixtures they or others care about.
Then wipe ALL fixtures that are not in storage/players' inventories.
And from there on out just reduce the maximum amount of fixtures in the wilds and lastly make some forum post about how players ought to be more responsible with them (I am sure they'll listen).
This removes all the clutter while giving people plenty of time to save their fixtures before the big day.

You might now say "BUT ISN'T THIS SUPER INTRUSIVE AND OUT OF CHARACTER?"
Yes. It's just a solution I've come up with from the top of my head and therefore definitely not the perfect or ideal way to go about this. But let's be real, it's less intrusive than some of this fixture spam and the fact that we have silk cushioned couches somehow not developing rot or being torn apart by animals while standing in the middle of wildlife infested woods.

User avatar
MissEvelyn
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:43 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:23 pm

Every time I've walked by a bookshelf in the middle of a square in Cordor, my character has shaken her head at how irresponsible the government is with leaving important books and documents to be drenched in the rain.

And every time, it was simply brushed off because apparently, if it's not explicitly a mechanic, it doesn't exist πŸ™„

Well, I say make it a mechanic. Wood, cloth, and even leather decays when it is outdoors, and I wholeheartedly agree that it should also decay on Arelith.

Fixtures aren't meaningful, when they merit zero consideration on the fixture-placer's part. Let's make fixtures meaningful and important, by keeping the more vulnerable ones indoors or facing the natural consequence of decay and wildlife.
If you use -notells, I will respect your decision and continue to engage with you in meaningful roleplay.

User avatar
Marsi
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:34 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Marsi » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:01 am

perseid wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:00 pm
I'm certainly not arguing against the idea lots of people do come/go rp in a lot of open areas but my own experience has been that fixture presence is both a sign of interest in an area and at times a driver of interest in areas. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any consideration for keeping fixture counts in an area to a polite volumes, I simply meant that I felt some posts are treating player made fixtures as inherently a nuisance which I disagree with as it's akin to treating rpers themselves as a nuisance which needs to be worked around.
I completely agree with you. Practically all the significant wilderness RP I've done over my characters has *revolved around fixtures*. Investigating strange marks, preserving old shrines, noting down poetry and interesting designs, rituals, etc etc.

My theory (besides the fact that there are just x10 more players) is that the newer 1.69 & hak tilesets, which use heightmaps, are too "filled in" to really accomodate fixtures. It feels like a sensory overload traversing their highly detailed 3D terrain and also seeing mismatched poorly textured objects half-floating in and out of view.

The vanilla tileset and Arelith's original areas were empty canvasses -- I seem to remember this was intentional and was commonly described as such on the old forums -- and the naive topography did a better job of hiding clutter and organising player installations into very obvious nooks and crannies and out of the way.

Before writs there were parts of the surface you just... never went to. You could go IRL years without visiting a 1/3rd of the surface. There were genuinely abandoned places. Though we have these massive and certainly very "wild" seeming areas now, most of them are designed with a route snaking all the way through, or have an even distribution of writ routes and other pathing. Nowhere is really acceptable to put down a fixture installation because literally anywhere is in someone's way. I don't feel like we've gained many new "safe" areas, in fact, it feels like the spawn rate has sharply increased - the fixture maker population grows but the area they can safely practice built roleplay in only concentratres. It'd be great if there were more areas that served no function other than to be explored and roleplayed in, and ideally without an ogre doomstack every five feet.
MissEvelyn wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:23 pm
Every time I've walked by a bookshelf in the middle of a square in Cordor, my character has shaken her head at how irresponsible the government is with leaving important books and documents to be drenched in the rain.
What's maddening is most library areas themselves go unused, while all the bookshelves are built in high traffic areas. Why!!
He can neither read nor write and in him already there broods a taste for mindless violence. All history present in that visage, the child the father of the man.

chris a gogo
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by chris a gogo » Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:58 am

Just destroy every fixture that bugs you.
I do. if it gets repaired within a RL week I leave it alone if not i smash the rest in the area, it then all vanishes in 10 days and you never have to see it again.

Disclaimer.
Not all fixtures i bash just the pointless ones like elven daycare centers in the dreaming tree or campsites in the middle of the battle field.

Peace out.

User avatar
Eira
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 427
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:59 am
Location: Denmark

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Eira » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:38 pm

I am not against the idea of bashing fixtures when there is clutter, nor am I opposed to keeping some places natural.

However, I advise and urge all people who do take up this wilderness cleanup effort to keep an open mind for clear effort and legacy put into items. When there is something that has a lot of thought put into it, I would be wary about locking the original creator into a weekly cycle of bash repair to vibe check that they're still around.

Some things are not meant to be checked on or used daily. And some aren't just meant for the original creator to use. I'm not talking about someone setting up a camp in the middle of the forest 3 transitions away from a city, but things like altars, memorials, gravestones, offerings, etc.

If something has a description that obviously had effort put into it and the intention seems like it is there to stay, if it's in an inconvenient place, maybe put some rp into moving it somewhere more fitting. And if it's not, well, I think there's no harm to it.

Of course, I do speak from a place of bias. I had a character with altars set up in various groves throughout the island. Every so often, they would go on a pilgrimage to these altars. They would pray, leave offerings, and take other people. But when I was forced into a hiatus for personal life reasons, shortly after, there was a cleanup initiative. All the fixtures in a collection of maps were gathered up and dumped on the docks with the notice "you can pick them up here". Obviously, when I returned, they were gone.

That wasn't the only reason I rolled that character, but it did sting enough to contribute.

I have seen this happen to many others. Gravestones are often likely to disappear. Other fixtures intended to last just vanish. And yes, often they're in places without lightning strikes.

So, yeah, I do agree there is certain excessive littering, but one of the magical things about Arelith is seeing glimpses of other people's stories and their legacy through what they created. So please be willing to judge effort and intention with a bit of leeway.

I am not assuming anyone in this thread will just bash bash bash gleefully without thought or care, but it has happened.

But blank description clutter? Well, if it doesn't spark joy...
I exist to describe the world around us.

Veriel Xyrdan - married and happy
Reena Welkins - Dead

Eira#7777

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 5437
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:55 pm

Just random thought- I am sorta sharing the concern that natural decay of ALL outdoor fixtures would mean that some, like Gravestones and Shrines and historical statues - especially the gravesteone ones, would end up vanishing quickly and that can be a bit of a shame?

Perhaps I'm getting too granular with this but what if we made it so that all fixtures decayed, except (some of?) ones crafted by Art Crafting (made of stone basically). Or maybe they decay but a lot slower? Just throwing out a thought.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

CragOrion
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 870
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:52 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by CragOrion » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:54 pm

Sounds like a lot of work, but yeah, that seems like the perfect solution

(Yall remember when a little bridge turned into a fullblown villiage? XD)

stoneheart-
Posts: 74
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2021 6:07 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by stoneheart- » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:02 pm

The maintenance of shrines and gravesites is often somebody's job in the real world, and probably in forgotten realms too. It's not even an uncommon belief that the sanctity and power of a holy site is something that must be maintained by vigilance and ritual, and shrine keepers or monks would actually live near altars to see to their upkeep. And gravesites have gravekeepers, obviously, or people who care enough to maintain them. Like if there's a gravestone in the wilderness somewhere that is ancient it's probably been worn down to illegibility by the elements due to not being maintained by someone. If every statue, gravesite, shrine etc just lasted forever in its original state there would be no mystery whatsoever in archaeology.

I'm really against the idea that altars and gravestones for some reason ought to be these fire and forget things that just last forever. It's okay for our legacy to fade away, for new players who come along to use the area. That is and should be a part of the server's natural life cycle.

Though speaking of archaeology it might be nice if old fixtures DID fade away somewhat, and players could maintain or restore them if they were too far gone.

but yes the main thing is giant fixture camps where someone has decided that this forest wilderness area could really use a nice kitchen set in it.

User avatar
The GrumpyCat
Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 5437
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:14 pm

stoneheart- wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:02 pm
The maintenance of shrines and gravesites is often somebody's job in the real world, and probably in forgotten realms too. It's not even an uncommon belief that the sanctity and power of a holy site is something that must be maintained by vigilance and ritual, and shrine keepers or monks would actually live near altars to see to their upkeep. And gravesites have gravekeepers, obviously, or people who care enough to maintain them. Like if there's a gravestone in the wilderness somewhere that is ancient it's probably been worn down to illegibility by the elements due to not being maintained by someone. If every statue, gravesite, shrine etc just lasted forever in its original state there would be no mystery whatsoever in archaeology.

I'm really against the idea that altars and gravestones for some reason ought to be these fire and forget things that just last forever. It's okay for our legacy to fade away, for new players who come along to use the area. That is and should be a part of the server's natural life cycle.

Though speaking of archaeology it might be nice if old fixtures DID fade away somewhat, and players could maintain or restore them if they were too far gone.

but yes the main thing is giant fixture camps where someone has decided that this forest wilderness area could really use a nice kitchen set in it.
Right, I get what you mean - but on the other hand there's a lot of jobs IRL that we don't have IG because it's not fun for players?

I'm ok with the idea of a slower decay timer too I should add, but again if only for versimilitude reasons , I do feel stone fixtures should decay at a much slower rate. If we even put this system in.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

User avatar
Aradin
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 308
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:26 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Aradin » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:32 pm

Here's a thought, and I say this with no knowledge of NWN coding. What if there was a decay mechanic? After however long of no one interacting with them, outdoor fixtures would have:
- their names replaced with something like "Overgrown _______" (overgrown statue, overgrown chair, overgrown gravestone)
- their descriptions replaced with something like "The choking clutch of vegetation and damage inflicted by the elements have weathered this object into an unkempt shell of its former self. Whatever details it once displayed are hidden."
- and, ideally, some kind of visual degradation in regards to the fixture model itself.
While a fixture is overgrown, you wouldn't be able to interact with it. Can't sit in chairs, can't pray at alters, etc. Overgrown fixtures could be tended to and cleaned with cleaning supplies (?). That bucket item. Can't remember exactly what it's called. Once cleaned, their names, descriptions, and usage would be restored.

This might work well because for isolated shrines, gravestones, statues, altars, etc. because it adds a bit of mystique to them. While for an overgrown many-fixtured campsite of chairs and tables, you might reasonably see and say "No one's using those, they can be gotten rid of.". There's a difference IMO between fixture setups that are meant to facilitate active use by a community (which have little to no value outside of that active use) and those that are intended to simply be there and tell a story to anyone who passes by.

Though I'd also just generally support sending DMs reports about problem fixture glut areas so they can clean things up. That's probably the easy answer.
Sai Aung-K'yi (Shelved)
Stink Spellworped (Probably gambling somewhere)
Wolfgang Deuernmark (Enjoying retirement)
Ikarus (Slain in ritual combat)
Revyn the White (Deceased; afterlife unknown)

User avatar
Party in the forest at midnight
Posts: 1271
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:55 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:09 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: ↑
Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:14 pm
Right, I get what you mean - but on the other hand there's a lot of jobs IRL that we don't have IG because it's not fun for players?

I'm ok with the idea of a slower decay timer too I should add, but again if only for versimilitude reasons , I do feel stone fixtures should decay at a much slower rate. If we even put this system in.
I would be very happy if wooden signs decayed at a very rapid rate.

Ruzuke
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2021 2:55 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Ruzuke » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:40 pm

Amateur Hour wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:26 pm
Ruzuke wrote: ↑
Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:05 pm
I have had 20 fixtures stolen. I replace them and I have the buildup of materials everywhere so I can replace them. Originally, I only placed on fixture. It was stolen. Because that same 24-hour rule which some delight in stealing the same fixture every single day I placed more. Sometimes 3-4 in the same zone so it will take a week to steal all of them.

Edit: They used to have descriptions. After replacing 20 they just get names now.
I think you are missing the point here: that just because you want a fixture placed in a particular location doesn't mean most other people agree with you.
I think you are missing the point. Just because you personally do not like a fixture somewhere doesn't mean others do not like it there. You can pick it up and steal once a day to make you happy. I can drop four more off. The point is there are differences of opinions. Multiple people play the game.

As this forum is open the counter point is made. People spend their time and energy playing the game. It takes time to make fixtures, place them, rotate them and make it look appealing. A description just doesn't happen. Someone has to write it up and sometimes it tells a story.

DM Poppy
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by DM Poppy » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:22 pm

LichBait wrote: ↑
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:48 pm
Wilderness fixture decay would be neat.
Lightning storms naturally destroy fixtures already.
I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

Gilbert K
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:00 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Gilbert K » Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm

I keep seeing the word "legacy" get mentioned a lot when fixture bashing/replacing/moving is brought up. I think this speaks to an inherently flawed view of what fixtures are here for. I truly pity any character whose "legacy" is a set of fixtures that's liable to be bashed or stolen by some random throwaway character someone trying out the server made.

Speaking as someone who loves making fixtures with elaborate descriptions, I have played long enough to see the vast majority of them get replaced or destroyed by the sands of time or players redoing an area. This is a good thing. Don't stake your whole identity on fixtures.

tl;dr: Bring on the DECAY.

DM Poppy
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2022 8:56 pm

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by DM Poppy » Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:42 pm

Gilbert K wrote: ↑
Sun Nov 27, 2022 5:54 pm
I keep seeing the word "legacy" get mentioned a lot when fixture bashing/replacing/moving is brought up. I think this speaks to an inherently flawed view of what fixtures are here for. I truly pity any character whose "legacy" is a set of fixtures that's liable to be bashed or stolen by some random throwaway character someone trying out the server made.

Speaking as someone who loves making fixtures with elaborate descriptions, I have played long enough to see the vast majority of them get replaced or destroyed by the sands of time or players redoing an area. This is a good thing. Don't stake your whole identity on fixtures.

tl;dr: Bring on the DECAY.
This is a particularly sensible opinion on the whole thing regarding fixtures being bashed or replaced. Of course their are instances of people being absolute weapons, but we can address those as they are reported. BUT.. The above is a very fine view indeed.
I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

User avatar
Royal Blood
Posts: 345
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:12 am

Re: Excessive Fixtures

Post by Royal Blood » Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:00 pm

At the time I was new, I saw forges EVERYWHERE. They were crammed into every nook and cranny. I didn't know what fixtures were at the time and I thought it was server design and I almost left just cause the clutter was so nuts!

It's the price to pay for Sandbox I guess.

I am sympathetic to legacy fixtures. I think these can be used like collectors items. The mansions and guild houses usually hold relics of past characters. I would hold onto those where possible or pass them along. There's a handful of fixtures from my own characters that are years old I bump into every so often and it's neat.
I am not on a team.
I do not win, I do not lose.
I tell a story, and when I'm lucky,
Play a part in the story you tell too.

Post Reply