Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

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Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:00 am

My character is a Gift of Magthere drow. I am aware others exist. When Vampires and Rakshasa had an across-the-board buff: Past Vampires and Rakshasa were retroactively given access to new gift to add to their disguise, or whatever it was they believed benefitted their character.

I feel like everything that made my character ECL +3 has been removed from my character without compensation or acknowledgment of those changes; and without the ability to compete in the modern meta in those areas of choice. I am using my specific character only as one example -- others exist, even as alts by people I play with.

  • My SR was reduced, but I was not given a gift to compensate for the change in ECL the DMs provided to Drow.

  • Without a greater gift -- my character is effectively down 2 Epic Feats to reach the same level as other drow; and anything that I can do in compensation can be done by those same drow characters.

  • Without the Fighter AC after having regeared my character is in a weird place; but a nerf was needed and I accepted and began to regear and change my class setup to meet the intended balance changesl.

  • After regearing AGAIN ... and commissioning another sword worth millions of gold to meet the new fighter changes; Kensai removal was announced; in a move that I generally agree is good for the game, my character must lose access to additional skills in order to pick up lore or UMD to compensate for their weakness putting additional pressure including the loss of 2 points of stacking AC -- meaning I have to find a way to alter my character gearing again.

  • Without a lesser gift, because of the necessity of Gift of Magthere, my character is effectively down a lesser gift that would provide her up to a +6 bonus in spot or sail in order to stay competitive with other builds. 30 hitpoints is not compensation to 70 hitpoint blasts of a warlock or melee crits -- and while this was fine before Kensai was removed.. it stops being fine when you don't have the intellect to fit the loremaster build and the change comes after you locked in and need restats just to play a new version of the same class you've always played.

I have spent hundreds of hours just since some of these changes were announced trying to compensate for them. These bonuses are NOT "small things you can plan around" because of the very nature of how bonuses stack on Arelith. They raise the UPPER LIMITS rather than diversifying what your character is capable of, and any other drow is capable of cookie-cuttering what I have planned ... and I am not.. and so I am caught in a really weird spot -- which is why I'd like my character to be standardized since I've /already/ done the grind now multiple times to keep up with changes and the "hits" just keep coming in very, very rapid succession /while/ I try to compensate to the past changes.

I think Drow in this period should have access to regifts similar to the above other races given that the reason for their denial in the past was listed as "keeping their uniqueness" -- when all uniqueness from that era has already been removed -- and I don't think this is a situation where I am the only one caught out, given the Rakshasa and Vampire gift changes.

I've heard others mention it, and I'd like to see this feature made available to other non-conforming races/species on Arelith when the staff makes large changes. I am for instance, aware of 5% Tieflings from the old days who have NO gifts and NO bloodline sitting in people's vaults -- and I don't think those people's investments in Arelith are worth less than those of some who have been compensated, where they have not.

I'd like to see a way to bring some of these older characters into regulation and up to date with modern expectations so that the only solution is not to destabilize active factions and active storylines with regards to characters who are out of regs.

Having participated in the ticket and forum request systems multiple times over my time in Arelith: This is my feedback on the way these things are handled on Arelith.

Rolling is an RP choice, designed to enhance RP -- not something that people should be forced out of in an inability to keep up when features such as -relevel exist on a continuous basis. Spending 4 epic feats to get up to standards with other non-reward characters in the same fields feels like it's stretched the Gift logic of preserving different periods /really/ far when the need to do this in order to manage in spars with peers you previously used to compete within the areas you're specialized in (like Spot, or not getting knocked down due to epic feats - or gifts WORTH multiple epic feats) has nothing to do with the RP going on -- or even the intended balance changes... this is even as benign as friends in spars; an inability to keep up with power-creep creating an inability to have fun.

But I think this is an inconsistent application of rulings -- even if you want high drow turnover; the same issue existed at the time among Rakshasa and Vampire players which is why they are number-limited and so many people get turned down for those requests; hence my - intended respectfully! - feedback on this inconsistency.. and I think that is fair.

And to me? Other people's existing, past and future investment in my character and her RP matters a lot.

For the record: I am not intending to roll my character or abandon people's existing RP regardless. I'll do as I've always done and just play the game -- but I think I've made several valid points on this topic that I would like to have examined by higher-level staff; and if the reasoning is that the tech doesn't exist-- I feel like looking into it would help Arelith in future, unforeseen circumstances that would allow PEOPLE (with time far more limited than mine) to stop making IC excuses to grind for OOC problems and get back to their rivalries, their relationships to each other, and focusing on relevant plots. I wanna stop grinding, but I also want to be able to participate in the game relevant to my current time investment rather than becoming a potentially losing investment because of stats.

Edits completed.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by DM Monkey » Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:58 am

Drow have gone through a number of changes over the years in an attempt to balance them. They're still extremely powerful, you're lucky to have one of the old ones. You've taken full advantage of grandfathered situations so far, but changes don't always happen in your favour. The same is true for other players!

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:04 am

DM Monkey wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:58 am

Drow have gone through a number of changes over the years in an attempt to balance them. They're still extremely powerful, you're lucky to have one of the old ones. You've taken full advantage of grandfathered situations so far, but changes don't always happen in your favour. The same is true for other players!

Every single one of the advantages has been removed.

And if that was the standard.. why are vampires - which are arguably more powerful; many of which are just as old - being post-date updated in gifts and all of the drow's advantages that set them apart in a positive way from existing drow and gave them a single lesser gift was removed?

And I feel that distinction is important.

That is not an advantage/disadvantage. It's enough that even being experienced in fighting equals who have 2 more epic feats AND a regular feat than you are going to win every time simply because of how the hit-table and penalties are setups; where they (other drow) have effective immunities or override against other's abilities because of a +6 bonus to skill for stealth and disguise.

When you're knockdown spamming ... the difference in AB matters against 70-discipline players; because while you will hit eventually -- only the people with those number ranges can actually succeed in the eventual knockdown that wins the fight.

These things have hard impacts given how long fights last.

Is that not inconsistent to the treatment of even ancient Vampires and Rakshasa getting retroactive access to new gifts?

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:16 am

Just curious, but what changes happened to vampires/rakshasa?

Last edited by Hazard on Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:19 am

Hazard wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:16 am

Just curious, but what changes happened to vampires/rakshasa?
I know that old vampires could take full gifts and new ones cannot.

I don't see anything about it in announcements.

Screen Shot below from Announcements. Search for the word 'Vampire' in the announcements section and it pops the top of the list. It's literally allowing SOME to be up to current standards, and not others. And the problem as I see it is that the same standard is not applied impartially to everyone.

If a thing is deemed to be too strong -- it's fixed at a cost to players; sure. If it leaves the players weaker than their own race with NO ability to catch up or meet the new standards ... it's often left in spite of its impact. If this standard was kept equally (and it's not as shown below) that's understandable ... but the below screenshot of announcements shows an entirely different standard.

=====================================

Image

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:23 am

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:19 am
Hazard wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:16 am

Just curious, but what changes happened to vampires/rakshasa?
I know that old vampires could take full gifts and new ones cannot.

I don't see anything about it in announcements.

Screen Shot below from Announcements. Search for the word 'Vampire' in the announcements section and it pops the top of the list.

=====================================

Image

Oh, alright. I'm blind. Thanks for that.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:27 am

DM Monkey wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:58 am

Drow have gone through a number of changes over the years in an attempt to balance them. They're still extremely powerful, you're lucky to have one of the old ones. You've taken full advantage of grandfathered situations so far, but changes don't always happen in your favour. The same is true for other players!

Yeah; so you see what I'm talking about? Vampires and Rakshasa are very strong; and for the slots and population have less turnover than drow.

And they got gift-updates retroactively. And in addition to not being remarkable; I have the same issue where my character can't regain a noble title because you can't use gifts on a remake; yet the noble feature - again - did not exist before my character.

Is the standard that Rakshasa and Vampire players' investments -are- more valuable to the staff? That's the point of the feedback. Not actually to change it; I want to understand the difference here as understood by the staff on the subject matter of old ECL for some but not for others - especially when it's only the opposing sides of the difference between the two drow after the updates that get left.

Or +6 bonuses to rolls don't matter -- except to Rakshasa and Vampires? That's what I don't understand.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 28, 2023 9:10 am

I think in the case of Rakshasa it looks like they're correcting an oversight. Their ECL and inability to take bluff gift sort of makes them 'worse' at disguises than non-Rakshasa, and that's their main thing.

I'm glad to see this kind of change come to Rakshasa even if I don't have one. They really should be the ultimate disguise masters.
It would suck a little extra for them to not give this to pre-existing Rakshasa, especially considering it costs a major to make one.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by MRFTW » Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:24 am

What does gift of the magthere do?


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 12:26 pm

Gift of the Magthere gave you +2 Con at the cost of -2 Charisma. -- Making blackguard builds of the time near impossible for melee; no strength or dex bonus as with Greater Gifts. The feat was designed to allow basic melee fighters. You had the choice of that (making your hitpoints and AB still lower than a humans)..

OR

There was also Gift of ... Sorcere I think? Or Clergy; something wisdom based? But it was designed for casters but had a similar trade-off that made some feat and class combinations non-viable; which is ultimately why it was changed. This was not the Gift I had, which is why I don't remember it; and it's been scrubbed from the wiki.

These feats were along the same line as the Ogre-specific Gifts. Drow, when these gifts were available had spell resistance high enough that made them immune to Word of Faith ONLY when it was cast from a scroll.

========

Any advantage (such as Kensai or higher spell resistance) that existed when those gifts were considered par for balance has been removed via scripts. It slid stats around. New ones they don't have access to are pure bonuses equivalent to 2 epic feats and a pre-epic feat by comparison.

They were basically sliding our existing racial around while humans had +1 skill, +1 feat, +2 to 2 stats, and no stat maluses (penalties); which is why virtually every build is designed with either a Half-Orc or a Human in mind.

Every +1 AB is 5% more scaling on damage output. Basically meaning that the current drow has +2 Strength options and other things that give them competitive attack bonuses equal to 2 Epic Feats; that stack with those feats even if the user wants to take them. These gifts were removed from the game, and NEW drow was given:

One Greater Gift (any stat with +2) and One Lesser Gift (any of the normal lesser gifts)... This was done when Drow's ECL was lowered along with their magic resistance. Old drow, without access to the changes also had their magic resistance similarly lowered.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by miesny_jez » Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:17 pm

I sympathize with the frustration as an owner of a Ogre Kensai...

Who was created before the Ogres were given their minor gifts options but still got hit by the Ogre stat nerfing and Kensai turn off without any compensations, leaving it now .. well in a pretty sad state of not having stats and not having skills to rebuild to cover anything

Luckily for me I never "sticked" to this ogre so treat it more like a vacation breakaway from complex RP into something simple, but your Saslae is very active in UD.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Morgy » Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:27 pm

I am curious how many active PCs this is an issue for and therefore how keenly the impact of this might be felt around the server.

On the one hand I can see can why it would feel unfair not being mechanically even on a base level, on the other I know many such ancient PCs have vast wealth and multiple 5% items that others will probably never see. In that regard I don’t know, perhaps it evens out? Having silly gold, IC memory of old events and therefore perhaps secret knowledge will always provide a unique advantage to those PCs. One seems to have more going for it than the other, certainly.

I would like to add that I don’t agree with pushing out old PCs with stat changes by not balancing them (not that I actually believe that would be intentionally done). I just think old PCs have a big lore and resource advantage that keeps them on a more even keel anyway.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Watchful Glare » Fri Apr 28, 2023 3:35 pm

Morgy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 1:27 pm

I am curious how many active PCs this is an issue for and therefore how keenly the impact of this might be felt around the server.

On the one hand I can see can why it would feel unfair not being mechanically even on a base level, on the other I know many such ancient PCs have vast wealth and multiple 5% items that others will probably never see. In that regard I don’t know, perhaps it evens out? Having silly gold, IC memory of old events and therefore perhaps secret knowledge will always provide a unique advantage to those PCs. One seems to have more going for it than the other, certainly.

I would like to add that I don’t agree with pushing out old PCs with stat changes by not balancing them (not that I actually believe that would be intentionally done). I just think old PCs have a big lore and resource advantage that keeps them on a more even keel anyway.

I don't like the disparity of allowing only certain 5% races to benefit from new changes. On the same ground that also 5%'s are the type of characters I would argue people keep forever. I don't see the need. And naturally there must be reasoning behind it, which I think would work out for the best if it were expressed. IE "We as a team feel that X Z or Y is C B or D way, so we have implemented it like this, because of X."

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Sincra » Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:59 pm

On SR:
This was not just you, it was every source of SR that came from a racial bonus.
I actually was recently reminded that apparently some people still have the SR gift, and if that's not scaled to 26 I'll need to adjust that too.

Your statline:
I'd like to actually see the numbers, but your character has also existed a very long time across many changes.

On nerfs to fighter AC, Kensai removal and Regearing:
I sympathise with regearing and constant changes but your class range was actually a very straightforward one, the fact you went out of your way to do multiple hard 5's on an item is of no bearing to these changes and would be odd for us to consider or involve in any discussion regarding balance, outside any enchantment system rework discussion, and I assure you that hasn't actually been discussed in any detail beyond "maybe some items are going to artifact level!"

On the vampire and rak gift:
They were given an ECL that implied their ability to take such gifts but were denied it due to the implementation limitation.
This is at odds with yourself as you chose gifts that did not give such.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Seekeepeek » Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:38 pm

Sincra wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:59 pm

On SR:
This was not just you, it was every source of SR that came from a racial bonus.
I actually was recently reminded that apparently some people still have the SR gift, and if that's not scaled to 26 I'll need to adjust that too.

Was a +2 ecl gift for a brief time, yeah. It was there at the very beginning of the gift system some ten+ years ago?


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Hazard » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:41 pm

Seekeepeek wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 5:38 pm
Sincra wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:59 pm

On SR:
This was not just you, it was every source of SR that came from a racial bonus.
I actually was recently reminded that apparently some people still have the SR gift, and if that's not scaled to 26 I'll need to adjust that too.

Was a +2 ecl gift for a brief time, yeah. It was there at the very beginning of the gift system some ten+ years ago?

your display pic nearly killed me, jfc.
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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 6:42 pm

Sincra wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:59 pm

On SR:
This was not just you, it was every source of SR that came from a racial bonus.
I actually was recently reminded that apparently some people still have the SR gift, and if that's not scaled to 26 I'll need to adjust that too.

Your statline:
I'd like to actually see the numbers, but your character has also existed a very long time across many changes.

On nerfs to fighter AC, Kensai removal and Regearing:
I sympathise with regearing and constant changes but your class range was actually a very straightforward one, the fact you went out of your way to do multiple hard 5's on an item is of no bearing to these changes and would be odd for us to consider or involve in any discussion regarding balance, outside any enchantment system rework discussion, and I assure you that hasn't actually been discussed in any detail beyond "maybe some items are going to artifact level!"

On the vampire and rak gift:
They were given an ECL that implied their ability to take such gifts but were denied it due to the implementation limitation.
This is at odds with yourself as you chose gifts that did not give such.

I agree with everything you said; but I am saying that my character's potential -- even if I completely remade and releveled within the rules -- is lower than that of a character made tomorrow; because of the rules on remakes.

That a maintenance plan is not within my power because of the things players are allowed to do. It isn't even about the items -- it's that I can't bid on a noble foyer IN THE FUTURE even if I did this; where I can now.

No matter how much work I'm willing to do!

I don't want to BE an exception; not ASKING to be an exception. I'm asking for the possibility of standardization! people who're literally in weird circumstances. There is no mechanic, and even asking it gets people's initial reactions going:

" =/ " ... because it's me and my character. Not because of the situation or because of how it has been applied to others in recent times. And that is my point.

As long as Kensai existed? I wanted the opportunity to keep it just like everyone else who had it. When it's taken away from everyone? I'm fine with that. As long as beast belts exist and I did the thing -- I want to have it like anyone else who did it. If they get nerfed or removed in the future: I'm fine with that.

As long as it's done fairly and across the board. When I see some people's ancient characters getting exceptions -- that doesn't come across as fair to me.

I don't like the system of asking for things quietly or privately; because it creates situations like this where people distrust people who are perfectly willing to work within the system. I don't want to be an exception or to be seen as one!

Kensai is gone. I am not complaining about that; I am saying it's the LAST thing that made the stat difference in another area not be justified by the existing explanations. I think I've proven I'm willing to put in an ungodly amount of work to make things work, and these exceptions are the thing I use my time pointing out.

Even when they're bad. I'm not hiding, or concealing anything. I'm not trying to trick people or misrepresent situations. I'm overtly pointing at stuff that doesn't add up when you see how others are handled. Under the -weird- circumstances being created by the current train of logic of existing policy:

One gift drow would be given either a major or lesser gift to catch up to the current drow. And because I don't think that's a good thing when added.. that's why I think there is a ruling being applied in a weird way here to some people and not others.. Drow characters are on their own - vampires and Rakshasa are not - even given the period they were made in is also a weird precedent, which is hence my focus on the idea of systems being developed for standardization: To cover these situations, and people in the future in an official context rather than a case-by-case.

You see what I'm saying? I'm fighting past the perception that I have some kind of OOC advantage: Any advantage my character may have been perceived to have had has been scripted out of existence in equality with others, but the disadvantages that WERE NOT applied equally to other ancient characters of the same time-frame remains - including vampires.

I'm asking for the efforts to update and standardize to be continued until parity is achieved.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Aren » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:15 pm

I don’t see the big issue.
You are free to rebuild your character or use -remake to remake Saslae, just like everyone else.
I know of people who have given up on legacy gear to remake their character. Why can’t you do the same?

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:17 pm

Aren wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:15 pm

I don’t see the big issue.
You are free to rebuild your character or use -remake to remake Saslae, just like everyone else.
I know of people who have given up on legacy gear to remake their character. Why can’t you do the same?

Because then I can never own a Noble Foyer again, unlike a Drow made tomorrow. (Because you can't use a Reward on a remake; and this feature was added after my character existed - Saslae is not my original toon; contrary to popular belief.) The rule is written. Yet my character has it right now. Do you see how I am pointing at the system because the rules are created of exceptions?

I'm willing to do the labor.

People /do/ that; but it is against the rules on rewards. What I do, is I try to get everything on the table and I point at these things without naming names. Because it isn't about getting people in trouble; it's about fixing the problems in the system that do affect people.

It's a weird spot.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Aren » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:25 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:17 pm
Aren wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:15 pm

I don’t see the big issue.
You are free to rebuild your character or use -remake to remake Saslae, just like everyone else.
I know of people who have given up on legacy gear to remake their character. Why can’t you do the same?

Because then I can never own a Noble Foyer again, unlike a Drow made tomorrow. (Because you can't use a Reward on a remake; and this feature was added after my character existed - Saslae is not my original toon; contrary to popular belief.) The rule is written. Yet my character has it right now. Do you see how I am pointing at the system because the rules are created of exceptions?

People /do/ that; but it is against the rules on rewards. What I do, is I try to get everything on the table and I point at these things without naming names. Because it isn't about getting people in trouble; it's about fixing the problems in the system that do affect people.

I’m sorry to hear that. It seems you will have to decide of your extra 2 strength from remake is worth losing access to a noble foyer, I guess.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:27 pm

Aren wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:25 pm

I’m sorry to hear that. It seems you will have to decide of your extra 2 strength from remake is worth losing access to a noble foyer, I guess.

This is why I say the precedent set on Rakshasa and Vampires is irritating when applying it to old characters in those categories.

The gift situation is literally a parallel when the commands clearly exist. Because that isn't equal application of the principle.

Vampires with the same access did not get forced to make that choice, or even get left without changes.

They simply were issued the benefit. Any argument comes back to that instance being treated differently and contrary to the standard as you lay it out.

Hense the thread.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by DM Poppy » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:38 pm

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly because I wasn't aware we had property reserved for Noble Award PCs.

But to me it reads that you are taking issue on the Gift System and how it applies to legacy characters.

But I am also reading that your main concern is on your inability to apply an award to be viable to a own property that should be owned by a Noble Awarded PC currently?

Our system is made in favour of character turnover, though we don't stop legacy characters from existing.

It also worth noting. Vampires should not have Major Gifts, they were not eligible historically or until very recently due to the manner their racial gift is applied, the same for a Rak.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:42 pm

DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:38 pm

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly because I wasn't aware we had property reserved for Noble Award PCs.

But to me it reads that you are taking issue on the Gift System and how it applies to legacy characters.

But I am also reading that your main concern is on your inability to apply an award to be viable to a own property that should be owned by a Noble Awarded PC currently?

But as an aside, our system is made in favour of character turnover, though we don't stop legacy characters from existing.

It also worth noting. Vampires should not have Major Gifts, they were not eligible historically or until very recently due to the manner their racial gift is applied, the same for a Rak.

But they have been retroactively issued a lesser gift while possessing all the benefits people say I must choose between my existing character, and modern benefits.

Old Vampires can use the below command:

=============================================

Image

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My character is missing a gift in a similar vein; whether this constitutes a lesser or major gift; but it was a lesser gift when I selected it -- I am willing to leave up to debate and alternate solutions -- but even if it was considered a major gift, that still leaves me a lesser gift short; that vampire and Rakshasa characters were benefitted.

And the vampires who existed from back then? Did not lose their beast belts or have to make a choice between them while gaining this benefit; hense my argument to Aren's solution. It isn't one; because the situation isn't applied fairly; if it was? I'd have already started grinding - as I've proven I'm very capable of doing.

The feedback is on the difference in the treatment. Whether one believes that a randomly acquired Major is worth more than another player's investment in the same time period is - to me - the difference I'm drawing into the light here when these two racial gift issues are treated differently and one is expected to make a choice, and the other is not.

I'm not accusing anyone - especially not by name! - respect is core to how I try to do things but I am saying that in practice ... This is what it seemingly adds up to. And I don't think 5% characters being MORE valued by the staff is a precedent the Arelith team intentionally sets - which is why I am rebelling against that idea; and pointing at it as the math.

Last edited by dominantdrowess on Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:53 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Aren » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:45 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:42 pm
DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:38 pm

Perhaps I'm reading this incorrectly because I wasn't aware we had property reserved for Noble Award PCs.

But to me it reads that you are taking issue on the Gift System and how it applies to legacy characters.

But I am also reading that your main concern is on your inability to apply an award to be viable to a own property that should be owned by a Noble Awarded PC currently?

But as an aside, our system is made in favour of character turnover, though we don't stop legacy characters from existing.

It also worth noting. Vampires should not have Major Gifts, they were not eligible historically or until very recently due to the manner their racial gift is applied, the same for a Rak.

But they have been retroactively issued a lesser gift while possessing all the benefits people say I must choose between my existing character, and modern benefits.

Old Vampires can use the below command:

Image

If it will give you some sort of satisfaction or sense of equilibrium, I’ll offer to forgo the minor gift available to my 5% character. I can live without the benefit.

".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by DM Poppy » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:48 pm

To clarify.

Despite their ECL, Vampires and Raka were not permitted to take a gift. This was due to the way their subrace is applied.

Recently, it was made to allow this to be applied to them after the subrace was applied. Exceptions to this, I have no idea how they came to be so I won't comment on that.

But this isn't a buff, this was simply adding a function to allow what had been otherwise refused due to engine limitations. But due to the way it is applied, the function could be used on existing characters and so was advertised.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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