Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

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dominantdrowess
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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:55 pm

DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:48 pm

To clarify.

Despite their ECL, Vampires and Raka were not permitted to take a gift. This was due to the way their subrace is applied.

Recently, it was made to allow this to be applied to them after the subrace was applied. Exceptions to this, I have no idea how they came to be so I won't comment on that.

But this isn't a buff, this was simply adding a function to allow what had been otherwise refused due to engine limitations. But due to the application, the function could be used on existing characters and so was advertised.

Many updates are applied to races and classes that can adjust existing characters as it.

I don't see how a retroactive +6 to a skill gained by vampire characters as old as Saslae - that did not exist when their character was created - is not classified as a buff by your definition. o . O

But it's literally a gift modification to existing - Not New - characters.

I get it. And I don't want them to not have it -- I just want standardization of these choices to exist. If I get something; other people can access or achieve it. If they get it, others can access it and achieve it.

I'm not asking for modifications to my character, or to vampires. I'm asking for the benefit and proliferation of the standard. That I use my character as my example is the only thing I can do -- because it's the only time I've encountered or interacted with the request system. I am not disputing the ruling. I'm offering feedback on the standard; a thought experiment/argument.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by DM Poppy » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:03 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:55 pm
DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:48 pm

To clarify.

Despite their ECL, Vampires and Raka were not permitted to take a gift. This was due to the way their subrace is applied.

Recently, it was made to allow this to be applied to them after the subrace was applied. Exceptions to this, I have no idea how they came to be so I won't comment on that.

But this isn't a buff, this was simply adding a function to allow what had been otherwise refused due to engine limitations. But due to the way it is applied, the function could be used on existing characters and so was advertised.

I don't see how a retroactive +6 to a skill gained by vampire characters as old as Saslae - that did not exist when their character was created - is not classified as a buff by your definition. o . O

But it's literally a gift modification to existing - Not New - characters.

I get it. And I don't want them to not have it -- I just want standardization of these choices to exist. If I get something; other people can access or achieve it. If they get it, others can access it and achieve it.

Quite simply put.

That Minor Gift should have been available to them all from the beginning. But couldn't be added.

Now it can, but it is added after the fact by necessity and so could be utilised by existing characters.

I'm the nice one.. I promise :twisted:

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:08 pm

DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:03 pm
dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:55 pm
DM Poppy wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:48 pm

To clarify.

Despite their ECL, Vampires and Raka were not permitted to take a gift. This was due to the way their subrace is applied.

Recently, it was made to allow this to be applied to them after the subrace was applied. Exceptions to this, I have no idea how they came to be so I won't comment on that.

But this isn't a buff, this was simply adding a function to allow what had been otherwise refused due to engine limitations. But due to the way it is applied, the function could be used on existing characters and so was advertised.

I don't see how a retroactive +6 to a skill gained by vampire characters as old as Saslae - that did not exist when their character was created - is not classified as a buff by your definition. o . O

But it's literally a gift modification to existing - Not New - characters.

I get it. And I don't want them to not have it -- I just want standardization of these choices to exist. If I get something; other people can access or achieve it. If they get it, others can access it and achieve it.

Quite simply put.

That Minor Gift should have been available to them all from the beginning. But couldn't be added.

Now it can, but it is added after the fact by necessity and so could be utilised by existing characters.

So the position is that when <Unnamed Human Vampire Weapon Master> was made (as an example to staff members without public disclosure) -- around the time of the creation of my own character -- they were always intended to be the ECL that allowed them to have a Lesser Gift when they were a 5% special-request character and this gift is the correction of a.. bug (i.e. not being parody with vampires made -today- ) that the original scripter always intended as of 7+ years ago...

But the drow being lowered in ECL, and their negative gift - a lesser - not getting access to the gifts awarded to level 1 drow after their SR was lowered.. resulting in the equivalent difference of two epic feats.. (not being parody with drow made today) ... a difference in existence because of the same exact time period ... would not be a bug?


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by MalKalz » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:18 pm

I am having a hard time following the feedback with signature bloat.

However, all Drow from yonder years all experience the same thing that your own character did. The change was not retroactive for gifts. If you would like the gifts for your character you are welcome to do a remake. However, you will have to make due with what you have.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:21 pm

The signature has been removed, boss.

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:08 pm

So the position is that when <Unnamed Human Vampire Weapon Master> was made (as an example to staff members without public disclosure) -- around the time of the creation of my own character -- they were always intended to be the ECL that allowed them to have a Lesser Gift when they were a 5% special-request character and this gift is the correction of a.. bug (i.e. not being parody with vampires made -today- ) that the original scripter always intended as of 7+ years ago...

But the drow being lowered in ECL, and their negative gift - a lesser - not getting access to the gifts awarded to level 1 drow after their SR was lowered.. resulting in the equivalent difference of two epic feats.. (not being parody with drow made today) ... a difference in existence because of the same exact time period ... would not be a bug?

Is it literally: The drow situation is too complicated, and Vampires were not?


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by MalKalz » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:28 pm

dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:21 pm

The signature has been removed, boss.

Basically what I'm asking is not for a change in that ruling. I am asking why the ruling was applied differently to vampires -- I asked Poppy before your entry to the thread:

So the position is that when <Unnamed Human Vampire Weapon Master> was made (as an example to staff members without public disclosure) -- around the time of the creation of my own character -- they were always intended to be the ECL that allowed them to have a Lesser Gift when they were a 5% special-request character and this gift is the correction of a.. bug (i.e. not being parody with vampires made -today- ) that the original scripter always intended as of 7+ years ago...

But the drow being lowered in ECL, and their negative gift - a lesser - not getting access to the gifts awarded to level 1 drow after their SR was lowered.. resulting in the equivalent difference of two epic feats.. (not being parody with drow made today) ... a difference in existence because of the same exact time period ... would not be a bug?

Kalopsia would have to advise on the reasoning behind the gift addition - I was not around at that time.

However, my thought is: changes to races and the number of gifts should be done across the board to everyone of that race.

This is not saying that the decisions / balance reasons of the past should be neglected. There was obviously some reason why not every Drow got the changes while only certain after X creation date did. But it did happen - its like all the Humans that had +3 Major gifts dropping, they got grandfathered and did not lose their gifts. So, its the same there - for some reason it was that way, and grandfathered that way.

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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:33 pm

MalKalz wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:28 pm
dominantdrowess wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:21 pm

The signature has been removed, boss.

Basically what I'm asking is not for a change in that ruling. I am asking why the ruling was applied differently to vampires -- I asked Poppy before your entry to the thread:

So the position is that when <Unnamed Human Vampire Weapon Master> was made (as an example to staff members without public disclosure) -- around the time of the creation of my own character -- they were always intended to be the ECL that allowed them to have a Lesser Gift when they were a 5% special-request character and this gift is the correction of a.. bug (i.e. not being parody with vampires made -today- ) that the original scripter always intended as of 7+ years ago...

But the drow being lowered in ECL, and their negative gift - a lesser - not getting access to the gifts awarded to level 1 drow after their SR was lowered.. resulting in the equivalent difference of two epic feats.. (not being parody with drow made today) ... a difference in existence because of the same exact time period ... would not be a bug?

Kalopsia would have to advise on the reasoning behind the gift addition - I was not around at that time.

However, my thought is: changes to races and the number of gifts should be done across the board to everyone of that race.

This is not saying that the decisions / balance reasons of the past should be neglected. There was obviously some reason why not every Drow got the changes while only certain after X creation date did. But it did happen - its like all the Humans that had +3 Major gifts dropping, they got grandfathered and did not lose their gifts. So, its the same there - for some reason it was that way, and grandfathered that way.

Then why are legacy vampires getting a gift? This is the point of the thread. Not over-turning a decision -- but feedback on that decision being applied weirdly and seemingly in ways that don't feel to have continuity to the past ruling. As I said:

If everyone loses something, it's fair. Deleting Kensai across the board? Sure. Removing beast belts, delete bonus feats across the board, sure. But pre-standardized Major-vampires getting to keep them and not having to make the choice to be parody with their own race, and drow having to, in order to be parody with their own race is weird - both being short gifts.. except One isn't anymore.

(Not a blame thing at vampire players: They don't enter into the decision-making process -- or even the DMs, or Admins, or whoever makes decisions. I'm just.. pointing at a thing as I do when I see them.)


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:25 pm

Without any changes in rulings, positions, or anyone's stats or current or past decisions:

I 100% and without reservation, withdraw my objections and agree the staff made the correct choice in both situations.

Explanation of my reasoning to avoid suspicion on anyone or the idea of anyone putting pressure on me:
As someone who codes, after conversations with some people who were there in Arelith's wild west? I now understand more than enough. Though I was there through a lot of it? My own experience was obviously formatted. I did not have anything close to an accounting of some of the wilder stuff. Even the more streamlined examples of why this isn't done? Are obvious reasons that this would be exceedingly difficult and time-consuming. (Apparently; The Abyssal Citadel and Arcanum exist because of 5% Rewards! - While I knew this; I did not know these sometimes also went toward altered character stats!)

While I think I made good points based on the information I had; additional information about the nature of ... weird things liiiike... (5/10% Major Rewards Drow with increased stats - I know of at least one human like this as well) in the (Character) Vault of Horrors that existed without record or scripted continuity that players certainly have the right to return to.. and the fact that Drow of Saslae's age and earlier DON'T have a record of their differences scripted into them and MODERN DROW DO ... presents a pretty obvious and insurmountable man-hours issue that vampires and Rakshasa - with zero variance between them - did not present with their baseline stats.

Automated fixes to drow actually lead to large numbers of drow (even Jhaamdath if you remember, for like a year, he was mechanically a Moon-Elf on tracking!) have led to big issues sometimes even because of how Drow are inconsistently documented throughout their ages ... and attempts to fix or change them en-masse in the past have lead to disasters. Many of these old drow, technically, are still Moon-Elves with Drow subrace and never logged in to be updated to 'Race: Drow'.

I am under the impression the staff would if they could; but the vault of horrors must stay closed; even if the mutated things inside it sometimes come out. I am now under the impression Arelith drow are a coder's nightmare; because the ECL reduction thing from 5%? Used to basically let you add stats. And that's just a nightmare when you realize: There's zero record of each one before certain periods /after/ Saslae existed.. and there are 10+ years of Drow in the vault BEFORE her.. An automated solution is very likely impossible; because standardization does not exist and there is often no record of what some of their stats are supposed to be in what was acceptable in each phase and or reward case study for potentially thousands of drow characters in the vault -- level 2 to 30; many of which are NOT date-stamped (including Saslae) as modern characters made today are and these players have equal rights to come back to their characters with as little disruption as is feasible as any other Arelith community member does.. and a lot of whom are still probably Moon-Elf Drow because they never logged in to be updated.

Back in the day? All that stuff was done by hand with vault edits instead of scripts; which is why the record doesn't exist until admins started scripting in accountability and things. Stuff you can't really consider until you consider the scope of Arelith's 20-year history; and how (even the most professional!) servers used to be run 10 or 15 years ago! x . X;

Let that vault stay closed. xD


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Definately Not A Mimic » Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:43 pm

I'm curious, when you made the character was it allowed to get gifts back when +2 con was for some reason considered a minor?
I ask because the only legacy drow build I have included that. I was able to get way higher ability scores than any drow made now and that feels like it should be note when asking for an additional minor gift as compensation.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by Mattamue » Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:16 pm

Open the vault. There used to be 3 stat gifts characters. I want one of those or for them to be purged in fire. Also I'd like the old beast belt that gives feats and my pick of an old runic or for them to be purged in fire.

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by -XXX- » Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:16 pm

Chill, nobody back in 2017 could have predicted how optimal builds and optimal stat spreads would look like in 2023.

The server's changed a lot since then and time has not been kind to legacy characters - I doubt that many of those still left would even resemble optimal builds, much less gain an unfair edge thanks to the extra stat gift.


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Re: Gifts and "Out of Date Races"

Post by dominantdrowess » Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:51 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 3:16 pm

Chill, nobody back in 2017 could have predicted how optimal builds and optimal stat spreads would look like in 2023.

The server's changed a lot since then and time has not been kind to legacy characters - I doubt that many of those still left would even resemble optimal builds, much less gain an unfair edge thanks to the extra stat gift.

Kind of agreed there. I for instance, don't have the intelligence stat for the optimal 21 Fighter/5 Weapon Master/4 Loremaster with a Knight Commander's Cavalry saber and self-casting level 21 Bless Weapon scrolls; and opted for 23 Fighter / 7 weapon master with a Longsword because of this in order to maintain penetration: Which has 4 lower AC, the same AB and a smaller crit-range than the above Loremaster build -- the loremaster build with superior stats, gifts, AC, skill-check and +5 Bless Weapon Scrolls can also ward against scrying and teleport to top it all off.

Bless weapon scrolls from Loremasters last 42 minutes and completely bypass the downside of the optimal build's cavalry saber, which is why it is used and is the method of Drow Weapons Masters 'made today'. I am certain you can clearly see the difference it takes spending 4 epic feats (in Great Strength) to meet their AB and Gifts and being unable to even come within 25% of their success rate in all other areas - including spot or sailing checks - they choose to specialize in after they play with an established faction for a month's time.

In spite of that? My opinion is becoming that too much work for the staff (DMs and Developers) sorting and standardizing all the drow. Even being currently on the downside of those two fighter builds. It's a volunteer team that doesn't get paid; and the backlog by opening the vault would be legion.

Mattamue wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:16 pm

Open the vault. There used to be 3 stat gifts characters. I want one of those or for them to be purged in fire. Also I'd like the old beast belt that gives feats and my pick of an old runic or for them to be purged in fire.

I honestly don't even wear my beast belt most of the time unless showing off for events/description purposes (My character is a spot-bot that wears a 5% + Runed Belt of Seeing (https://i.gyazo.com/dbe21a84c3a5d48455e ... 1bc6a9.png) in most PvP situations and spars) and would benefit heavily compared to above builds if they did open up the vault to fix things -- but I again; don't think that it's worth the man-hours after the things I've been told.

I am down with these things when they are done as a standard across the board; fairly — I am just under the impression that is either impossible, or not worth the net impact of man hours (for an all volunteer team) because in many cases they would have to manually ask the fallible memory of players what their stats are supposed to be, to avoid screwing over someones reward character… for what has effectively been a niche balance issue for one or two active players.

If Devs think they can develop a system tho— good on them. The entire point of my own position is consistency. I like the idea of races being standardized. It fits my perception of balance and covering future issues. The way it was told to me by multiple people though? That feels like madness as far as the man-hours involved to protect some people's (fairly gained) major reward character rolls in this case.

If you as a Dev think it's worth it? Go for it boss. I couldn't tell if you (Mattamue) were being sarcastic or serious for across the board changes; if being serious - cool.


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