ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

[Thelight1]

Would it be possible for Elementalist specifically to get this on their spell list? Thematically, it fits them and it’s be a nice ability for them to have now that many of their summons are gone.

Hello, as a melee/ranged combatant spell it is not for Elementalists, they will have something else coming to them in 2-3 batches.

I guess we’ll see what they get, but “this isn’t for them” seems pretty arbitrary. At least something like this will give them survivability to make up for the fact that their summons are gone or severely limited. It’ll also account for the fact that they have far fewer ward spells than any other caster class save maybe warlock.

[Captain_Siix]

I think this is pretty rad but my only gripe with it at the moment is its limited to divine casters. If you need to be able to cast 9th lvl spells that eliminates warlocks and spell swords so you're left with sorcs and wizards. I don't think they would use it really but it would be cool to give them the option to use it.

Edit: forgot about hemo and elementalist. I think it perfectly fits elementalists flavor. For hemomancer it might be strong but I'm not sure as I have no experience with the class.

[Baronze]

I think you should fully block this feat if:
Monk or Weapon Master levels are present.
Divine Shield/Might or Ki Barrier is active.

Both of those with edge-cases can break what you are trying to do (2h divine martials) into extreme-damage output builds.
Just to save yourselves some headache down the line.

[AstralUniverse]

I think you should fully block this feat if:
Monk or Weapon Master levels are present.
Divine Shield/Might or Ki Barrier is active.

I dont know about fully block it but we should always be on the watch for the next game breaking weapon master and/or big damage 2hander build so good feedback. Divine shield/might are quite core cleric things so offering cleric an epic spell that doesnt work with them seems a bit weird and not fun. Clerics who also invest in CHA are so stat-starved and building them optimally may not necessarily even be possible after the gear rework. They also have comically long wind up. Cleric weapon masters are turbo dispel baits so I'm not sure I'm incredibly worried about them either. No comment on monk and ki barrier.

Unrelated,
I also think that for this spell to actually be good for pvp and make a difference it should offer "backup" ab and damage in case you lose divine power/favor. So I suggest slapping a high ab and damage bonus of around +5 (+-1 for different elementals I guess) that does not stack with divine power or favor. If you really want to make it to make b-cleric less dispel bait in pvp.

[Paint]

Elemental Avatar isn't applying its stream damage to unarmed strikes right now, it seems. Tested w/ Air and Fire.

disciple's wraps

tavern brawler's wraps

I tried this without gloves too.

[Quidix]

Should Seeker be excluded too on the basis of already not being able to use summons? (similar to Warpriest)

I'd be a fan of removing the Epic Divine Caster requirement.

[Dreams]

Why divine only? If Druids/Shamans can cast this, why not also add Wizard/Sorcerer?

Put simply, one of the cornerstone design ideas of this feat to serve as a divine mirror to EMA. This feat combined with EMA would represent

5 dodge
5 armor
5 deflection
5 natural
6 shield

AC all undispellable along with DR and regen, and could become excessive. On top, divine casters as a whole are notably worse than arcane casters due to their spellbook, and this feat was designed with marital characters in mind for melee/unarmed/ranged and only SS can do that for arcane and is excessive in the eyes of many

You could make it so that EMA + Elemental Avatar are exclusive in the same ways summons are. Then you don't need to worry about comparing these two spells, and it enables other classes like Invoker who might thematically fit this kind of spell.

[Svrtr]

You could make it so that EMA + Elemental Avatar are exclusive in the same ways summons are. Then you don't need to worry about comparing these two spells, and it enables other classes like Invoker who might thematically fit this kind of spell.

While I understand the sentiment and understand people will be jealous (not that they don't have a right to, it definitely feels bad when you see other classes get stuff yours does not when it looks cool), there are a handful of reasons I want to keep this divine only

1) palemaster and it's crit immunity are a big thing that could mess with the balance even if EMA was disabled, especially with the various streams in various ways

2) EMA has long existed as a massive boon to arcane casters that has been arcane only. It would be imbalanced if divine casters got it, but equally as is despite the ac buffs divine casters can get EMA meant arcane casters could get more ac that likewise couldn't be dispelled while also having access to mords. Even with monk dip for cleric and shaman, in the former they must be pathless and latter they must be a shaman.

This is equally meant to be a boon to divine casters to give them some love

3) as is too this is definitely slanted towards martial (melee, unarmed, and ranged) divine casters, where melee divine casters are just worse than spellsword and ranged too are in a way "worse" with arcane archer scaling their CL

As for elementalist I can't comment. The class is another dev's, namely Amnesy, and thus it is not my right nor would I want to say elementalist can have it without their express permission. It they say they can then I've no qualms, but giving it to an infinicasters class who already can get quite high ac could be a problem. Given this I understand their hesitance to let elementalist take it, especially knowing some buffs and love they have slated that I have spoken with them about coming. When that drops and the dust settles, things may change, but for now the focus will be to remain narrow and open things up with time, especially given another feat similar to avatar I have in mind that may or may not follow this one depending on its success

The last thing I'll comment on this matter, many have mentioned transmutation specialist. On that I have spoken with Kalo and intend to speak further on the matter. If any arcane caster was to be granted this feat it would be them. This may or may not come to pass but if it does I imagine it will come in one of these forms

1) they just outright are able to take avatar
2) they receive something that uses the code and format of avatar but is unique
3) they receive avatar with a unique Arcane or magic stream and can only use that but are able to use that

Before I end this post, keep in mind much is in the air. The feat is certainly focused on martial divine builds by design. There is more I want to do and expand on, but before I do I want to make sure this is balanced. Ergo I want to take this one step at a time, start small and go up so we don't need to release it and later nerf it

I appreciate all the feedback though and would love people to keep it coming, especially on the feat itself including bugs, comments about the sounds or VFX needing a touch, and balance

[Dr. B]

Upon taking the feat and slotting it, you acquire a new 'stance' akin to dwarven defender. Upon activating it you are 'wreathed in elements' gain a plethora of bonus stats whose values vary and depend on your active elemental stream, and all of the caster's summons are dismissed (and continue to be while active).

Neat! Question for clarification: if killed in this state, can you still be reincarnated into the next bender who is born after your death? Thanks.

[Svrtr]

Elemental avatar balance pass 1; coming to pgcc in an update or two

GENERAL CHANGES:

• Regen scaling changed to 0/3/6

• Aura damage increased to 2d6

• Aura radius changed to large

• Is now party/neutral friendly (was originally intended to be)

FIRE STREAM:

• Bonus damage changed to d10

• Aura damage increased to 2d10 while fire stream is active

WATER STREAM:

• Water aura radius increased to huge

• Water aura provides regen to allies equal to own regen

• Weapon bonus damage type changes to slashing

MISC:

• Minor vfx changes

WARPRIEST:

• Due to a mild oversight warpriest is already able to take the feat and isn't forced to relevel. The hope is to let warpriest take it either way and so we will be monitoring it on the pgcc closely but it is possible to take it

FINAL NOTE:

• The bug about the damage of the same type not stacking on weapons is known and being worked on and should be sorted in time for the best balance pass

As a last note for this thread, if these numbers are deemed solid and good, the nest step will be the last one for design before finishing out balancing. That will be a passive aura effect of sorts like the Regen in water

My plan is to have water and earth be more defensive for allies and fire and air offensive.

Current plans will be revealed after final design touches and internal discussion.

[ReverentBlade]

Does it still damage party?

[Svrtr]

Does it still damage party?

No. It wasn't meant to in the first place but it was fixed, though I forgot to mention it in the original announcement on the forums here.

[Captain_Siix]

Elemental avatar balance pass 1; coming to pgcc in an update or two

GENERAL CHANGES:

• Regen scaling changed to 0/3/6

WATER STREAM:

• Water aura radius increased to huge

• Water aura provides regen to allies equal to own regen

• Weapon bonus damage type changes to slashing

I haven't tested this or anything but want to give feedback specifically on the water stream. It feels like it steps on the toes of druid in its current state. Firstly you get this before you get monolithic shapes and elder shapes IIRC have aoe less regen. I know they get the utility of fire immunity, but it comes with a less common and still relevant, 100% electricity vulnerability. The other issue is that Monolithic shapes are in bad shape right now. Almost no one is playing the architype because plant shape is just so much better. The little bit of utility that Mono shapes provide would get outclassed by almost any divine character spec'd for melee.

[ReverentBlade]

It seems to go a long way towards making a warpriest using a 2-handers much more viable than they are presently. I don't think its yet better than default cleric and using the two-hander from behind Conduit, but its much more fun, at least.

[False Nibble]

It seems this is already able to be taken on the real server (Outside of PGCC).

I have not tried taking it, but it is already on the feat list (under the Epic Spells).

To my understanding this is supposed to still be in its testing phase on the PGCC.

Is this intentional or an oversight / mistake?

[Svrtr]

It seems this is already able to be taken on the real server (Outside of PGCC).

I have not tried taking it, but it is already on the feat list (under the Epic Spells).

To my understanding this is supposed to still be in its testing phase on the PGCC.

Is this intentional or an oversight / mistake?

It should be the same case as harbinger. Visible on the live server but when you try to take it you're forced to relevel. New feats and classes tested on the pgcc generally are visible even before you can take them

If you're able to take it AND use it however... That is a bug and I'll request it be reported

[False Nibble]

It should be the same case as harbinger. Visible on the live server but when you try to take it you're forced to relevel. New feats and classes tested on the pgcc generally are visible even before you can take them

If you're able to take it AND use it however... That is a bug and I'll request it be reported

You're right, if you try to take it it just relevels you.

Wasn't aware it works like this when new things are being tested.

[Svrtr]

Given feedback by some who fear the piety cost of the spell is too low, along with concerns that there isn't enough incentive to turn the spell off and internal worries about the drain it could have on the server from the vfx, the following change will likely be implemented with the next balance pass that Include aura passives:

• Elemental avatar now drains 0.1% piety per round

This amounts to 1% per minute or 5% per server tick, where each server tick rewards 1% piety (3% if pure classes or if you have the gift of devotion).

This should help as an incentive to turn this off between groups of enemies and, more importantly, when not in combat.

If anyone has initial feedback on this feel free to share it here

Edit: to add, I am not fond of it per se, but the concerns about there being no reason to turn this off combined with concerns about vfx causing lag with too many people leaving it active were valid. The alternatives currently are

1) make it harm neutrals again. Would anger guards and kill NPCs in cities if people didn't know which would be a nightmare to avoid

2) give it a purely activation cost but a duration. If this is done the cooldown would make it clunky like barb rage, or if the cooldown is removed it would still be awkward to turn it on every x minutes.

I welcome alternatives to deal with the lack of incentive to turn it off in cities to prevent lag, but this is currently the most likely and cleanest option.

[Paint]

I already spoke about this in discord, but I'm leaving my thoughts here for posterity and transparency:

The piety loss is so small that it won't be felt in dungeons very much -- especially if you're worshiping or attuned to a w&d god -- which I think is great, because it means it's a tool you don't have to worry about utilizing in dungeons all that much.

Idling in towns is a different story, because you'll definitely see that piety drain over time, meaning it'll be a burden to keep up, which is good. Vfx in towns is annoying, and partially why I think premo's vfx should be reduced significantly.

In PVP, I imagine it also won't matter much, as PVP tends to be short bursts anyways? It might bug people to be losing piety in the leadup to PVP, but it seems pretty manageable overall.

My final thought is that I'd rather not see the round-counter spam piety loss. So if the piety loss updated every minute instead, and on ending the stance that would be preferable. I'm not sure how difficult it is to determine how much time has elapsed since the activation of the stance and/or since the last minute passed, but if it can be determined, that might be a way to save on server resources(so you won't have to change the piety value every single round), and prevent combat log spam.

[Xerah]

Yeah, the feedback would be annoying. I'd just tie it to the server tick and remove 5% at a time, then give the ability a 1minute cooldown or something.

[ReverentBlade]

That'll drain you out faster than you think. The battle cleric I run with is usually out of piety by the end of a long dungeon without the help.

[Svrtr]

AURA PASSIVES

Some had mentioned wanting a more dynamic aura effect that is more than just damage early on, and so such was designed.

The following will be the last new functionality added to this spell, aura passives that have various effects and that scale with transmutation foci in various ways:

FIRE - Leave a patch of burning earth once per round. Duration is 2 rounds, does d10 fire damage

Each tier of foci increases the damage by 2

ESF transmutation increases the duration to 3 rounds

WATER - Has a regen aura that gives allies regeneration bonuses as well as temp HP up to a max of 10. If the ally is outside the aura for 1 round the overheal disappears

SF increases the duration that the overheal lasts outside the aura to 2 rounds

GSF increases the temp hp to a max of 20

ESF increases the duration to 3 rounds and the temp hp to a max of 30

LIGHTNING - Lose the 2d6 aura damage but instead call down bolts of lightning that do 2d12 lightning and 2d12 sonic damage to 3 random enemies in the aura once every 4 rounds

SF trans decreases the cooldown to 3 rounds

GSF increases the # of enemies to 4 enemies

ESF decreases the cooldown to 2 rounds

ESF Evo causes a save equal to 10 (base) + 10 (spell level) + 6 (ESF trans bonus) + casting stat modifier that causes a 1 second stun if failed

EARTH - Causes a slow aura that has a save attached equal to 20 + trans foci tier + casting stat (respects freedom of movement)

Base is 10% slow that lasts 3 seconds

Sf increases the slow to 15%

Gsf increases the slow to 20%

Esf increases the duration to 6 seconds (one round)

As always I welcome all feed back. These will come "soon" time permitting as the holidays have people busy, but once these are implemented what follows will be testing, balancing, and bug fixes after which this spell can be safely made ready for live

[Paint]

I don't think I have much to say about these changes yet. I keep going back and forth on whether or not the earth slow is powerful or not. Is it 20+1/2/3+casting stat, or 20+2/4/6+casting stat? These DCs are pretty much in line with 9th level and epic spells, and considering it can be thwarted by FoM, it doesn't seem that impressive, but it's hard to tell without playing against it, since buffs like FoM get knocked off all the time in PVP.

[Starbridge]

I love this! I designed a character around this one thing. So I am looking forward to seeing it coming out. Though if I would to make any kind of suggestive feedback for it would be the following. This idea might get thrown to the side, and that's ok. When I was playing with it in test, it just seemed kind silly that each one had regen when the elementals you summon don't, only water has it. So I was thinking of properties that each of those elements might have.

x - large amount
y - medium amount
z - small amount

Air:
Size 6
+x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+y% concealment (allies gain 1/2)
+z elec damage (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y resist elec (allies gain =)

Earth:
Size 3
-x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+x DR (allies gain =)
+y blug damage to melee/range (allies gain =)
+z acid damage to melee (allies gain 1/2)

Fire:
Size 4
+x AoE fire pulse
+x fire damage to melee/range (allies gain 1/2)
+x slash damage (allies gain 1/2)
+x fire resist (allies gain 1/2)

Water:
Size 5
+x AoE regen pulse (allies gain =)
+. immu poison/disease (allies gain)
+z DR (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y cold resist (allies gain 1/2)

I have no idea how the radius sizes are calculated in NWN but this is kind of how I imagine them being. As air is the most freely moving element and earth being the more sluggish.

[Starbridge]

There are so many good ideas in here!