Despair in Hemomancy

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TheManBehindTheMemes
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Despair in Hemomancy

Post by TheManBehindTheMemes » Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:07 pm

Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JyVPYtIffs

Welcome to the Bad Days at Hemomancy, what can I do for ya?

Wizard copers, you're not alone. We're joining you at the local Arcane Bar too!

We'll start by addressing what causes this thread to be made in the first place. In September of 2023. Hemomancers receive their first real nerf that really made them buckle under the weight. While Auto-Quicken II was removed. Hemomancers could live without it for they have haste. They took away Planar Conduits, and Hellball from Hemomancer and it really hurt their damage output potential. Then they increased our Red Harvest's cooldown timer. Making the gameplay of Hemomancer far more difficult than it already had to be. As the player that made Comprehending the Hemomancer Guide that you could find on wiki-class. It is already a staggering challenge to play this class with sound mind.

But truthfully if you were going to play a hemomancer, you wouldn't have sound mind to begin with. Not with a class that have sweeping changes.

When I originally made my Noble Kobold Hemomancer before this september update. I remembered being declined the feat-change, and I had to hold off until I get another minor award to remake the kobold. I had to level from 18-19~ down to 3, then level all the way up to 25 until stopping to see if further crazy changes would occur.

Truthfully it landed on the money.

Crazy changes did in fact, occur.

Even now, as time of writing this. I have to plan for third remake of the same noble kobold. Of the same class. Because the DMs will not offer re-statting. Because the DMs will not offer feat-changes. So only solution is to remake the character again to adapt to new changes.


So what are the biggest outliners that really change compared to September Hemomancer change?

The March Hemomancers change brought us:

One less Level 7 Known Spell.

Global Focus base cost increase.

New spells that might not really be all that appealing. While we also receive some additions to our spellbook that do look better (Like Irongut.)

Red Harvest's AC lowered, meaning that all hemomancers will get their full AC amount at 24 hard Charisma rather than 26.

Themed discounts. Which is barely going to be taken advantage of as Hemomancers don't really take more than one or two spells on this list.

Signature Spells to become feat. Currently the fact that spell components are not consumed when casting these Signature Feats is actually a bug!


So effectively, Hemomancers are in very, very, very rough shape.
Whatsnot with the current Casters receiving the beatdown, harsher and harsher. Hemomancers always had it kind of bad for long time, with no ability to actually do proper summoning outside of conducting necromancy or using blood homunculus. They're immensely reliant on using darkness spell if they're hoping to do solo contents. And or dependent on a mundane to protect them so they could contribute..

Or they just won't be able to because their spell repertoire would be countered just because they're innate caster, and they can't do anything if they go into an area where enemy outright shrugs off your attacks.

Not only do Hemomancers also have to manage their focus, they also have to play around with spell components. While the change allowed the Hemomancers a chance to save up spell component at certain levels. They're still subjected to the agonizing pain especially since they have to cast large volume of these spells.

So without solid summons, Hemomancers should be capable of putting more damage casting. But instead, compared to Warlock. They do worse than Warlocks damage-wise.

Hemomancers doesn't have any kind of advantage over warlocks for most part, save for the fact that they could cast two different spells twenty time before running out of focus whereas Warlock would have to Eld-Blast after using a pact spell as it goes on cooldown.


It's really frustrating how most of new thematic spells that Hemomancers got is situational, or outright useless damage-wise. Like Transmute Blood looked good on paper until you realize that the damages are also halved. Blood Locust deals relatively low bleed damage for what is practically 7th level spell. (Hell it averages to half a damage compared to Withering Ray.) And it also cost spell components to cast!? REALLY?!

Lot of these new spells look appealing but their damage output is subpar, weak, or just lamer compared to even lower level spellslots. And even if you nerf Withering Ray again. It'll still be preferred to something situational where I can't use it against undeads, golems, slimes, etc.

It's very frustrating considering that there's no workaround, and you're in unfortunate twist.

Regardless there's also some issues like Withering Ray is supposed to cost .75 additional focus. But it still cost 1.0. Like it felt like this balance was kind of rushed, and penned in a hurry.
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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by CookieMonster » Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:11 pm

Hemomancers are getting the stick at the moment.

I greatly dislike the argument that they are overpowered because their are a lot of them. It's a silly argument.

They are simply more fun than a wizard / sorc and despite being weaker than an elementlist they have a better means to get their focus, which means you can use your spells and restore your focus if you are careful and really take your time in areas. Whereas Elementlist only recover focus over time.

The loss of Undead summons, specifically, Create Greater Undead is debatable. You are pushed into Epic Necromancy to effectively use your spells and it is a feat spell given by ESF Necro. Planar Conduit, Mummy Dust and Dragon Knight are more reasonable to be taken away as you had to multi class to get access to them. But even then were 1 use and subject to the summons rework.

Yes, we have the blood construct. That you need to loose half your HP and at least 8 stacks to get a tier 3. It's not viable in PvP or PvE unless pre prepared and it never survives a server change.

With the reallocation of spells and the additional of feat spells means we are backed into an awkward corner. Having a choice at the later circles of 4 3 3 3 with Darkbolt and Redbolt on the same page now means we actually are more starved of selection. Perhaps my own experience, but I've lost the ability to take Spell Mantle and I have to take Greater Spell Mantle. It can't be extended and it costs over 7 focus, a spell that is breached 100% of the time.

The loss of 2 AC is negligible. I've always said the Hemomancers AC is just a BS number anyway, because they are often flat footed or kiting so never actually use the full AC. But the change to red harvest healing just seems a bit excessive. A 1 minute cooldown to heal 50hp was not at all in need of a change to a 1 minute cooldown to heal 50hp over 30 seconds.

Plus, we've raised the cost of focus again. I don't like when people make the argument about wizards having to rest to replenish their spells. It's at a point where a Hemomaner needs to rest to replenish their focus, because you simply can't keep up with your group or if you try to solo an area that is more challenging. They aren't infi casters, they are intermittent casters who need regular stops to recover or multiple rests.

No Summons
No Sequencers
Debatable inclusiveness to Scrolls / Wands as their Class Tags are never included, even on arcane items.
Increased Focus Costs
Reduced Replenishment / Increased Cooldown for the double whammy
Staggered Healing

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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:25 am

I sympathize with previous changes nerfing them and that the poster keep having their builds messed up. Outside of pre-existing characters, I fail to see how the latest changes were a nerf. They lost 2 DODGE ac? While also gaining other boons from the same thing and not needing the same cha score to acquire said boons. Seems like overall win in build flexibility.

I with the lowered costs fo thematic spells I would be roling up a hemomancer right now it I was not deep into other characters. I do feel the poster's pain of having to constantly adapt to changes though.


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by CNS » Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:32 pm

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:25 am

I sympathize with previous changes nerfing them and that the poster keep having their builds messed up. Outside of pre-existing characters, I fail to see how the latest changes were a nerf. They lost 2 DODGE ac? While also gaining other boons from the same thing and not needing the same cha score to acquire said boons. Seems like overall win in build flexibility.

To be fair if you already invested the cha the increased flexibility doesn't really help you since you cant change your stats


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Irongron » Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:16 pm

Newer classes are very often the subject of major changes, as really the game itself serves as the testbed for the primary developer, who is also free to make changes according to their vision and feedback.

All of that aside I really did like both the title of this thread, which sounds like an album title, and the overall presentation. Clearly an effort has been made.


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by RedGiant » Tue Mar 26, 2024 11:52 pm

Some of this I've said before, but here's my good and bad on Hemomancer changes:

The Good:
-Changes to Hemomancer Red Harvest: ability bonuses (less AC, more short-lasting combat HP regeneration).
Don't mind this personally, I never found a way to make a decently ACed Hemomancer anyway, since I generally go for QoL perks, see comments below.

-Both Hemomancer and Elementalist will receive discounts on spell costs if casting spells of their theme/path.
Love this change, which reinforces the class theme.

-Both Hemomancer and Elementalist have updated spell books (some spells added, some moved, some removed).
Love this change and always a fan for more blood arcana, some of which is very interesting.

-Both Hemomancer and Elementalist have their signature spells remade into feat-based abilities.
Another great change, now players aren't forced to pick between a signature ability and a spell they really need.

The Bad:

-Components: Supposedly gets Eschew Components at 14, but doesn't really get it until level 28. Incidentally, this is why you see so many pure builds, because on a pure offensive caster (who will be casting more than any other type of caster), who wants to deal with this? Easy remedy here would be to actually give them full eschew earlier. I would recommend the three tiers of shedding components simply follow the path levels, culminating at 20. As it stands, the QoL alone means I will never even consider any build but pure.

-Armor: They have the light armor feat but cannot make use of it outside the sub-par custom invoker armors. Here I recommend dropping the lvl 6 Silent Spell perk and just giving them ASF -20% or something, so they have genuine light armor options. If that is too much, give them Auto Still I instead so they can at least buy into II later without devoting three feats.

-Spell cost adjustments. Casting is more expensive (especially casting the same spell over and over).
Consecutive Casting Penalties: As consummate offensive casters, sometimes you want to hit them with the same thing. Sometimes, only one of your spells works. Designers might think this boring to pound them with the same spell, but so is getting hit with the same sword. What this has forced me to do is simply cue the best spells in a row. Now instead of pressing 1, 1, 1, I press 1-2, 1-2, 1-2. This is just annoying. Recommend ditching consecutive cast penalties altogether. (I'm still not sure why this is a design sticking point.)

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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Scraps » Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:32 pm

Just going to pitch in that I really like the consecutive casting mechanic for invokers.

Specifically with Hemomancy it really works with the spell synergy 'flow' you get.
Say, you open with a Hemorrhage, into a Redbolt, and then either fire out a Massacre if that lands or rotate back into your Hemorrhage and start from the top. -Or just pivot into a different cast chain.

Sometimes I'll find I really want to cast 1 specific spell over and over, and in that case I interspace cantrips (With the massive 66% cost reduction you could probably switch this out for Hemorrhage if you're in range)

And if things are just insanely desperate and I need to fire out something on repeat every 3 seconds without delay, I'll just eat the focus cost and rest after the fight to top up.

Compared to managing spell slots its super forgiving, while gently nudging me away from the tedium of samespell spam madness (Like my caster warlock devolved into with Withering Blast, fixed now though!)


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by RedGiant » Thu Mar 28, 2024 4:29 pm

Scraps wrote:

Just going to pitch in that I really like the consecutive casting mechanic for invokers.

Penalty. Let's just call it what it is.

Scraps wrote:

Specifically with Hemomancy it really works with the spell synergy 'flow' you get.
Say, you open with a Hemorrhage, into a Redbolt, and then either fire out a Massacre if that lands or rotate back into your Hemorrhage and start from the top. -Or just pivot into a different cast chain.

You'll get no argument from me against spell synergies, such as damage being empowered against a feared target, etc. These are brilliant additions to Arelithian magic. But you can absolutely passively encourage spell combos and variation without actively penalizing spell repetition, especially because there are so many occasions when mobs may only be susceptible to one or two of your spell choices.
 

Scraps wrote:

Sometimes I'll find I really want to cast 1 specific spell over and over, and in that case I interspace cantrips (With the massive 66% cost reduction you could probably switch this out for Hemorrhage if you're in range)

What about the times, as above, when creatures are immune to low levels spells and/or entire schools/levels of magic? Maybe it is because I play the UD alot, but this is a fairly common experience. Also, hemorrhage only works on creatures with blood.

Incidentally, this is also the equivalent to asking a weapon master to switch from their weapon of choice to a dagger every round. We keep hammering caster DPS, but my casters have been routinely relegated to set-piece by sprinting weapon-master dervishes. Again, I'm never really sure why casters being able to regularly shuck out 40-80 damage is /the/ balancing concern, when every mundane I build does this better.

Scraps wrote:

And if things are just insanely desperate and I need to fire out something on repeat every 3 seconds without delay, I'll just eat the focus cost and rest after the fight to top up.

Compared to managing spell slots its super forgiving, while gently nudging me away from the tedium of samespell spam madness (Like my caster warlock devolved into with Withering Blast, fixed now though!)

Charitably, if you agree with the design principle of set repetition over singular repetition, I now await your arguments against auto-blast, auto-cantrip, the entire concept of blaster-warlocks, and...swords.

Last edited by RedGiant on Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:12 pm

I had a hemomancer when they first came out and I remember a conversation about why my dude did not cast a particularly useful spell (might have been withering ray at the time, I cannot remember) again and again during a difficult battle. He said something about it wearied him and required him to exert extra energy (focus) to do that.

Their response?

"It seems like it would be easier to cast a spell you have already focused extensively on than try to invoke different powers".

This always made logical sense and I personally would have designed it that way, though I understand from a game design perspective why the requirement of changing spells is in place to not suffer increased focus costs.


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:19 pm

Griefmaker wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:12 pm

I had a hemomancer when they first came out and I remember a conversation about why my dude did not cast a particularly useful spell (might have been withering ray at the time, I cannot remember) again and again during a difficult battle. He said something about it wearied him and required him to exert extra energy (focus) to do that.

Their response?

"It seems like it would be easier to cast a spell you have already focused extensively on than try to invoke different powers".

This always made logical sense and I personally would have designed it that way, though I understand from a game design perspective why the requirement of changing spells is in place to not suffer increased focus costs.

Maybe a way of thinking about it is like - one would think hopping along on one foot would be easier than walking right? why swap to a different limb entirely when you can hop on just one?

Obviously not - using two legs to walk is much easier. So maybe for hemomancy, its just like walking, flexing different areas of magic in a rhythm is easier than holding on particular string over and over again?

This too shall pass.

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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:26 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 8:19 pm
Griefmaker wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:12 pm

I had a hemomancer when they first came out and I remember a conversation about why my dude did not cast a particularly useful spell (might have been withering ray at the time, I cannot remember) again and again during a difficult battle. He said something about it wearied him and required him to exert extra energy (focus) to do that.

Their response?

"It seems like it would be easier to cast a spell you have already focused extensively on than try to invoke different powers".

This always made logical sense and I personally would have designed it that way, though I understand from a game design perspective why the requirement of changing spells is in place to not suffer increased focus costs.

Maybe a way of thinking about it is like - one would think hopping along on one foot would be easier than walking right? why swap to a different limb entirely when you can hop on just one?

Obviously not - using two legs to walk is much easier. So maybe for hemomancy, its just like walking, flexing different areas of magic in a rhythm is easier than holding on particular string over and over again?

I like that!


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Chloe123 » Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Common comment on overpowered casters, they are not op, they just more fun than wizard! (Me remembering this comment in my warlock too good thread :D )


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by CookieMonster » Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:03 am

Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Common comment on overpowered casters, they are not op, they just more fun than wizard! (Me remembering this comment in my warlock too good thread :D )

Being more fun does not mean they are overpowered. It just means they are more fun. You don't need to critically manage your rest bar etc etc etc.

A Fighter is more fun than a Wizard / Sorc. Clerics are more fun than Wizards / Sorcs... Everything is. So you are either critically pointing the finger at these classes that are more fun. Or you are neglecting the staggering truth that vanilla Wizards and Sorcs just.. Suck.

They are not the standard you should compare your classes against in the scale of power.

Hemomancers are a very fun class to play. Because they allow you to actually play in Dungeons with a party, or on your own if you are in an odd time zone. They need a bit of attention on how you use your focus, but that does make it enjoyable.

The main issue I have, is that they are being stripped of their ability to sustainably cast magic. A boss fight will take you to 75 to 0 in no time at all, putting you on the same level as Wizard/Sorcs.. Which we should all agree is just a terrible bar to be brought down to.

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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by AstralUniverse » Fri Mar 29, 2024 5:10 am

Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Common comment on overpowered casters, they are not op, they just more fun than wizard! (Me remembering this comment in my warlock too good thread :D )

Yeah that was my comment. You're not going to hear me saying this about Hemomencer, which hasnt been a particularly fun class for me on several different patches, even when it was definitely overpowered in the earlier stages of the class tweaking. Now I'd need to try it again. I dont mind the lack of summons but the focus management was tedious on both invoker classes back when I tried them and it hasnt gotten much better since.

Power doesnt equal Fun.

But you know, maybe a common comment is sometimes common simply because it's true.

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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by Anomandaris » Fri Mar 29, 2024 3:17 pm

CookieMonster wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2024 1:03 am
Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Common comment on overpowered casters, they are not op, they just more fun than wizard! (Me remembering this comment in my warlock too good thread :D )

Being more fun does not mean they are overpowered. It just means they are more fun. You don't need to critically manage your rest bar etc etc etc.

A Fighter is more fun than a Wizard / Sorc. Clerics are more fun than Wizards / Sorcs... Everything is. So you are either critically pointing the finger at these classes that are more fun. Or you are neglecting the staggering truth that vanilla Wizards and Sorcs just.. Suck.

They are not the standard you should compare your classes against in the scale of power.

Hemomancers are a very fun class to play. Because they allow you to actually play in Dungeons with a party, or on your own if you are in an odd time zone. They need a bit of attention on how you use your focus, but that does make it enjoyable.

The main issue I have, is that they are being stripped of their ability to sustainably cast magic. A boss fight will take you to 75 to 0 in no time at all, putting you on the same level as Wizard/Sorcs.. Which we should all agree is just a terrible bar to be brought down to.

Given what materials can do, I’d agree. The reality is action economy is just better for martial due to APR, AB, and DMG numbers, relative to spell damage output and 2x round + interrupt potential.

I may be in the minority, but I would almost like to see a complete removal of inficasting and make resourcing through dungeons and PvP more strategic. Why even have “no rest” areas if resting is just some old mechanic that has no real bearing anymore? With lesser resto scrolls and other consúmanles, plus current power levels, you don’t ever need to rest unless you’re a non-inficaster. Even then you can painfully cheese arcane flux or use scrolls if you really wanted to. Let’s enhance the importance and functionality of rest (temp buff well rested, new beverages etc). Or are we departing that much from dnd mechanics to satisfy QoL desires (I hope not)?

On the other hand I do think it would be cool to enable casters to push past their available, fixed slots/day, with some penalty/malus. For example I’m out of slots, but can cast another prepared or know spell at a certain slot at a steep penalty, signaling that I’m pushing myself past my limits at a price like red lining an engine. A lot of magic systems have this ephemeral notion of digging deep and pulling out reserves you never knew were there. We could implement a standard mechanic in this regard to give some optionality, while subsequently removing all inficasting.

This would make things far easier to balance, make dungeons more interesting, and could add some flavor to casters. Mundanes and martials would need to be adjusted accordingly, but that’s already a glaring issue.


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by kinginyellow » Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:30 am

Chloe123 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:59 pm

Common comment on overpowered casters, they are not op, they just more fun than wizard! (Me remembering this comment in my warlock too good thread :D )

I pointed this out too.

The reason warlock is fun is because it gets to use its class features.

The reason vancian casters aren't fun is because they get to use their class features half a dozen times getting to the dungeon and then they're a cheerleader.


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Re: Despair in Hemomancy

Post by RedGiant » Tue Apr 02, 2024 8:35 pm

Ironggron wrote:

Invoker Feat Spells and theme spells are no longer suffering the cost increase by consecutive spellcasting penalty.

I am just going to stop here and say, "Thank you!"

Cheers!

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