We need better rewards for grouping for dungeons

[silverpheonix]

It's early in the morning and this isn't turning out to be as well-written as the jumbled head thoughts sounded in my brain. I also began writing this as more of a negative feedback about how dungeoning as a group is punished by the module, mostly in terms of profit. When I began listing out various reasons I realized that the only real negative is you're splitting your profit.

I'm curious is what are other peoples' feelings on this? Is this enough of an issue, is lost profits enough of a disincentive that encourages soloing? If so, what can be done, in a balanced way that isn't giving everyone 100,000 a run, to encourage grouping up without punishing the people who solo out of either preference or necessity?

There's give and take involved when grouping up or running solo. I'm not a rocket surgeon, so someone else can do the fancy math stuff and break down optimal runic runs solo or as a group and compare the per-player profit while also accounting for differences in time spent solo vs group. Whatever.

The general feeling I get, and the impression other players have that I see (NOTE, I don't rely on dungeoning for my main PC's income, so my experience is limited!), is that there's little incentive, except for saving time, by running dungeons with a group. I'm changing my mind some on this because I can list many more reasons to group up than to go solo. HOWEVER, I still think that the general issue of loot per person is unchanged, and can be a big issue for someone. But, at the same time, I recognize this is a game we're supposed to have fun in and at the end of the day, and taking seven days instead of three days to reach X gold isn't terrible in the grand scheme of things.

If you can solo a runic, carry all the loot yourself, and have decent search/lore, why bother finding two other PCs? I recognize that someone might want to do something with their faction, and X dungeon might have some neat point of interest you can show them. But if you're looking to make a profit or save up for that Masterwork Rune, you're much better off running alone. You don't have to split that valuable sample of blueleaf three ways.

Yes, not everyone can solo runics, especially with some of the recent mechanics changes. But this isn't an issue just for runics. No matter what level you are, running a dungeon or writ as a group is going to have a tradeoff, namely, the profit from the loot. There's no meaningful bonus to loot from going as a group. Yes - you can have a search or lore bot if you're lacking there. Or someone can open that chest. But anyone can open a lot of chests with 1 point into OL/DT and some gear investment. Not everyone can manage that (mostly due to inventory space/carry capacity/personal distaste) but it's there.

Benefits of Grouping Up:

• RP fun time

• Pack mule/lootbot

• Someone can open the runic chest

• More hands make quicker work so you can circuit your dungeons faster

• Appraisebot (can also just find one back home)

• Can manage dungeons you normally couldn't

• Per-kill XP boon (not sure it really makes much of a difference in levelling, with how fast levelling can be)

Downsides of Grouping Up:

• You are splitting profit 3 or 4 ways instead of 1 way.

• Other than lore/search, there doesn't seem (I could be wrong) any bonus to loot based on party size.

[Kalthariam]

I tend not to group up in dungeons, because most people only seem interested in just hitting the dungeon as fast as humanly possible, then just splitting up at the end, because it's not an adventure to them, it's a chore because they've been done dozens if not hundreds of times before.

Not being beholden to anyone else's schedule is also a positive, it's not fun to be halfway through a dungeon and your partner just has to randomly dip and now you're done because you picked a dungeon you couldn't solo because yo had help. Or they are on a time limit and rushing the dungeon down so they can be done and moved on. Or having to wait around constantly for a leveling party because your schedule started not aligning.

Sure dungeons are easier, but it's PvE content. Honestly speaking most of the dungeons are solo-able by basically anyone? People, from my experience, don't want to be spending hours in a dungeon, they want it to be done and over with so they can split up the loot and go back to talking to people in their preferred hub.

Unless you over level content or out gear it to some insane degrees I don't really think NWN is a great conduit for "during dungeon roleplay."

Some people also just consider a challenge for content they are somewhat bored of having done for years by trying to push the limits and clear content solo. (Some classes do this way better than others)

Overall, I don't dislike grouping for dungeons. Just would honestly prefer to RP in places where there isn't countless invisible trackers chasing you down. Or something.

[Naghast]

Just gonna chime in that imo a rather meaningful factor for ppl wanting to speedrun dungeons instead of talking in it is buff duration.
They're not infinite, and ventures can be long, and you kinda don't want the duration to run out.

But to address the OP, i do agree that there should be a good incentive to group up that's preferrably not a stick.

Or at least less incentive against grouping up.

[The GrumpyCat]

One interesting change that happened that, I think, disincentivises group travel - and a bonus you didn't mention, is that if you're with a group in a dungeon and your pc dies, then they can be raised and continue.

The change comes in here: Back In The Day - you used to get a lot more 'raw gold' (as in gold coins) and a lot less items (by which I mean scrolls, jewlery mostly)

This may not seem a big deal, but does have an interesting knock on effect.

If I try to solo a dungeon and fail - I might loose like, IDK, 3000 gold, but that's fine. The scrolls/jewlery I find will be in my inventory. The 'raw gold' which I drop on death is only a relitivly small amount compared to what's likely in those containers. Maybe like 20%

And of course XP loss for death is much lower.

This means that there's much less risk in solo dungoning. I die? Eh I'm out of comission for a few hours and that sucks, but I can just rp for a bit, and I probably still made a tonne of profit in scrolls/potions that I can sell.

So I suppose my suggestion to incentivise it would be to make it so that if you respawn all your jewlery and scrolls (with exception of maybe some naturally red listed ones, like ressurection scrolls) vanish from your jewlery box/scroll case. This means that soloing is a bit more risky.

[Kalthariam]

One interesting change that happened that, I think, disincentivises group travel - and a bonus you didn't mention, is that if you're with a group in a dungeon and your pc dies, then they can be raised and continue.

The change comes in here: Back In The Day - you used to get a lot more 'raw gold' (as in gold coins) and a lot less items (by which I mean scrolls, jewlery mostly)

This may not seem a big deal, but does have an interesting knock on effect.

If I try to solo a dungeon and fail - I might loose like, IDK, 3000 gold, but that's fine. The scrolls/jewlery I find will be in my inventory. The 'raw gold' which I drop on death is only a relitivly small amount compared to what's likely in those containers. Maybe like 20%

And of course XP loss for death is much lower.

This means that there's much less risk in solo dungoning. I die? Eh I'm out of comission for a few hours and that sucks, but I can just rp for a bit, and I probably still made a tonne of profit in scrolls/potions that I can sell.

So I suppose my suggestion to incentivise it would be to make it so that if you respawn all your jewlery and scrolls (with exception of maybe some naturally red listed ones, like ressurection scrolls) vanish from your jewlery box/scroll case. This means that soloing is a bit more risky.

Yeah but then you run into the Issue of people PvPing you, kill bashing you and now congrats all your scrolls in your scroll case are gone! Hope you didn't have a buncha expensive ones in there.

[Ironsides]

Yeah but then you run into the Issue of people PvPing you, kill bashing you and now congrats all your scrolls in your scroll case are gone! Hope you didn't have a buncha expensive ones in there.

Honestly PvP loss could use a bit more "Oomph" as well, so this isn't necessarily a terrible thing.

[silverpheonix]

One interesting change that happened that, I think, disincentivises group travel - and a bonus you didn't mention, is that if you're with a group in a dungeon and your pc dies, then they can be raised and continue.

Oh that's a good point. I've definitely had moments soloing a dungeon where I had the "oh come on really?" moment of terrible luck or wonky mechanical funkiness.

[Security_Blanket]

So I suppose my suggestion to incentivise it would be to make it so that if you respawn all your jewlery and scrolls (with exception of maybe some naturally red listed ones, like ressurection scrolls) vanish from your jewlery box/scroll case. This means that soloing is a bit more risky.

I prefer the other approach myself, of incentivizing group play through benefits rather than penalties by going without. I tend to solo from 1 all the way to 30 no matter the build and there's one simple reason for that, money. If I join a group I accept the fact that I'm going to get screwed at the end of the run, in those cases I'm only in it for the XP and deal with the fact that I get maybe 10% of what I'd be making on my own. This wouldn't be such a big deal if everything in player-run stores wasn't so expensive, not only do I need to buy supplies so that I can hunt, but I need to buy gear, I need to buy materials, and even runes when I get to that point. Please don't penalize the lone wolves.

[-XXX-]

So I suppose my suggestion to incentivise it would be to make it so that if you respawn all your jewlery and scrolls (with exception of maybe some naturally red listed ones, like ressurection scrolls) vanish from your jewlery box/scroll case. This means that soloing is a bit more risky.

Thing is, players would absolutely NOT carry a jewelry box/scroll case around if it represented the "optimal" way of doing stuff.
Auto-loot still works even without containers - it just clutters the inventory.

What'd then be the alternative? For players to lose all scrolls and jewelry in their inventory?
That sounds a bit extreme (oops! there goes your stack of 100 Mord Scrolls and btw. you also seem to have misplaced your runed rings).

[silverpheonix]

So I suppose my suggestion to incentivise it would be to make it so that if you respawn all your jewlery and scrolls (with exception of maybe some naturally red listed ones, like ressurection scrolls) vanish from your jewlery box/scroll case. This means that soloing is a bit more risky.

Thing is, players would absolutely NOT carry a jewelry box/scroll case around if it represented the "optimal" way of doing stuff.
Auto-loot still works even without containers - it just clutters the inventory.

What'd then be the alternative? For players to lose all scrolls and jewelry in their inventory?
That sounds a bit extreme (oops! there goes your stack of 100 Mord Scrolls and btw. you also seem to have misplaced your runed rings).

All it takes is for subdual to bug out and whoops.

[The GrumpyCat]

Yeah but then you run into the Issue of people PvPing you, kill bashing you and now congrats all your scrolls in your scroll case are gone! Hope you didn't have a buncha expensive ones in there.

Two things
1) I did say that certain scrolls wouldn't be droppable. (such as the ones already naturally red listed from selling- but maybe more too. So your 100 Mord scrolls would be safe.
2) I didn't ever suggest that the scrolls/jewlery would be lootable. Indeed, perhaps the wiping of scrolls/jewlery only occurs on PvE death? IDK. Just throwing it out there.

I actually agree that the carrot solution is by far preferable to stick. The problem I'm running into is that I can't think of a good carrot solution.

XP? Leveling is already obscenely quick. Are we sure we want to make it even quicker? And this doesn't help with encouraging level 30's to gang up.
Gold? We're activly looking for ways to drain gold OUT of the economy, not add it in.
Items? Tend to lean into the gold issue, though I'll say maybe this is the best option?

These two things are the main MECHANICAL ways of rewarding people. They both seem kinda saturated right now, so I don't know that we can use them as further reward.

[Anomandaris]

This is why I would love to see more RNG implemented into epic dungeons. I’m not sure what the feasibility is, but make them less predictable. It’s become an obstacle course essentially where you can predict each spawn, each encounter, and run the dungeon effortlessly because you know it like the back of your hand. Put a low probability for some unkillable nightmare version of the dungeon that will push out even small parties. Add way more unique bosses and buff them to PC power levels.

Create some respect for PvE by giving it more teeth and maybe we’ll see some change in player behavior. There will still be exceptions among certain builds and hardcore player, but it’d address at least a chunk of the player characters’ approach to pve.

It could also maybe remove the not so great dynamic of “I Wade through thousands of enemies, break for tea then hunt an ancient wyrm, huzzah! Why do you fear these weak monsters for we are gods?”

[Subtext]

People tend to get mad at mmoesque concepts but I think incentivizing group play rather than punishing playing solo would be the way to go.

I don't know if you could code that, but. What could be interesting would be a special writgiver, accessible for everyone. Those would by and large not be your regular writs, instead focusing on places that are generally genuinely considered hard and not exactly suited for solo play.
Here's how I'd vaguely imagine it to work...

1) You don't choose the writ, instead you get offered a random one.
2) You can have people "copy" your writ so folks within your party can get the same one. I think that could work akin to starting/joining a ritual once within a short time frame after accepting the writ.
3) You run the dungeon and complete the writ with your party. Everyone turns in their respective writ for an interesting reward. One reward could be a token that could eventually be exchanged for things like adamantine, map pieces, runic materials etc.

Restrictions:

1) Only one such writ could be turned in for a reward each day (say, 19 hours cooldown). Likewise, you can only accept one such writ per day, be it by the writgiver or by copying it.

2) As mentioned, you don't choose the writ. If you ask the writgiver for work, you'll get work. You don't get to bow out of it after seeing it for a chance to get a better one. You're being asked to butcher "??????" ? Better buckle up! You also don't get to join someone else on theirs to reap the rewards on an easier one unless...

3) Writs taken disappear after 19 hours after which you can request or "copy" a new one.

4) This should probably just be about material rewards, not XP

[CNS]

Everyone in the party with the person that killed the boss can open the runic chest and gets a roll at a rune reward. (That is they all get a rune assuming they are not disqualified for other reasons - but they roll separately for what rune and quality they get).

If you want roll something similar out below epics make boss chests, that is chests that require defeating the boss of a dungeon that have a good set of loot in them (better than the average chest, more item focused, better random rolls on the random system). And apply the same principle, everyone in the party gets a go at the boss chest.

[-XXX-]

I don't see this as the carrot or the stick problem TBH.

Loot situation set aside, we are already heavily incentivized to fly through the dungeons as fast as possible, because of:

• ward durations as Naghast pointed out
• the notion of "racing" somebody to the runic shrine

Furthermore, every dungeon is a puzzle that, once solved, goes more seamlessly when doing solo because

• it offers the player 100% control over the "party" = no "Leeroy" situations, no accidental friendly fire, etc.
• no stopping every 5 minutes because some wizard wants to rest or somebody needs go AFK to use the bathroom/answer the doorbell/pick up the phone/walk their dog, etc.

Additionally, a larger group is easier to track down and intercept, if we want to take the risk of PvP into account here.

To sum it up: the way dungeons are designed on Arelith, it's generally more "optimal" to do solo, if the player can solve the puzzle on their own. The loot splitting situation is not the root problem here, but merely a factor that makes it worse.

What I believe we actually need are more challenging dungeons (think Lost Bastille) to incentivize teaming up out of necessity. For this to work, however, these dungeons must offer reward that would make it worthwhile, or they'd simply be ignored.

The removal of runic shrines from some of the easier dungeons might also go a long way - places like Viper Monastery, Temple of Auril or even Red Dragon Isle don't warrant runic shrines IMO.
And the argument that these are still there for lower level characters is flawed IMO, because these dungeons are being constantly plundered by max lvl characters, so those lvl 21 adventurers are extremely unlikely to find anything but empty chests there.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I do have stuff to say about gold and what not, though it's not going to be anything new from me. It's all stuff I said in the past. But first and foremost, I want to bring up (again) the main reason why I find myself alone a lot when dungeoning, and that's time. Finding people through ic means to travel with in a similar level range is borderline impossible with a 27 level possible gap. And as someone who not only wants to remain anonymous for as long as possible when it comes to who I am playing leaving ic the main option to gather in groups but also generally has an hour here or an hour there to play its very hard to find the motivation to seek people out to go with, especially since odds are someone is going to say to themselves "Level 14 isn't too high to go kill the sewer rat gang, I'm going to say yes to this guy." That not only means all the time I took to try and gather a group has me in game for longer than I should be due to real life obligations (gathering is often longer than the dungeon itself) but there's a good chance I'm bored following someone overpowered for the area mopping up the dungeon for 6 xp a kill. In other words...

We need tools to help us find people in a similar level range

This was true when I first said it back when I started playing some five years ago now, and it's even more so now that summons have been nerfed and gold intake has been cut to less than half. So, while I do agree that gold should go up not down when in a group vs solo, none of it means anything without something for IC group gathering. And the recent summon changes have actually made it harder, because the best method to find people in groups Arelith had was to just go to a dungeon and hope to run into someone just starting themselves. And while I have only been playing a week after an 8 month gap or so, I am 100% positive that I am running into a lot less people out dungeoning. And the few times I have it's been exclusively people who are way to high level for the area even by the writ standards (which are already too high) who are just there to grind gold.

Now, I can get into the devastating effect that having less folks out leveling is going to have for the server's long-term health, but you guys are smart enough to figure that out on your own. But in case you are having trouble connecting the dots as to the why, it's the gold cut and the brutal summons nerf. People are going to be less inclined to create new characters because of those two things, which means more bored level 30s and less people logging in in general. Thats not to say that there wasn't too much gold or that summons weren't overpowered, both things were true. But they also needed more nuanced solutions thanks to both the wealth of older characters and the fact that mages still can't really level (alone) without summons.

The one silver lining, however, is that the people behind the scenes who use the logic that "wizards are fine because so many people play them" are about to have their entire argument blown to bits. We are more than likely about to enter a world where everyone has a sword and is either a divine (dip or full), a loremaster dip, or a spellsword because those are the most efficient levelers now. Unfortunately for a large swath of players these are not easy builds to level, at least not compared to hiding behind a summon, but for the 30% or so who understand maximizing consumables against pve that's where they are going to land. Bonus, they are probably the best pvp builds too.

Not sure what everyone else is going to do, but I do have a guess or two where its heading...

[CNS]

Gold? We're activly looking for ways to drain gold OUT of the economy, not add it in.
Items? Tend to lean into the gold issue, though I'll say maybe this is the best option?

Couple of points on this too, since I think out intuitive understanding of things can lead us astray.

If we have a dungeon that when run earns the players 10,000 gold.

In a scenario where the same dungeon pays out 30,000 if three players run it together it's easy to look at that and think of no, 20,000 more gold entering the economy.

But that assumes the only option for the players is run the dungeon or go home when in reality, it's far more likely they all run off to different dungeons and all three players make themselves 10,000 gold separately equalling the same 30,000 gold entering the economy.

The other is items, let's say a Rogue Stone is given out as loot. And let's say it's value if sold to another player is 45,000. The player that got it has more wealth but only if they sell to another player, no new gold has entered the economy unless they accept the few hundred an NPC vendor will give which does introduce new gold into the economy.

[Kythana]

I really do not like the approach of making pve content even more punishing, especially from an accessibility standpoint. One of Arelith's biggest strengths, in my opinion, is the low barrier of entry that allows for an appeal to a more casual audience. And that tends to help bring new players into the fold.

Soloing is healthy, and isn't something that should be sought to be taken away. It's part of what makes the sever fun, that not literally everything be better in a group.

Realistically speaking, short of a complete overhaul/rework of the looting system (and there doesn't need to be one), just remove the timer that is applied party wide for runic dungeons, and only apply individually. As in, if you have a 4 man group, you can do 4 runic dungeons back to back.

No new gold is being generated, beyond the 1000 or so inside the runic chest that would otherwise be empty on the subsequent runs. And it would help combat some of the ridiculous speculator market pricing on runes.

[Kalthariam]

Yeah but then you run into the Issue of people PvPing you, kill bashing you and now congrats all your scrolls in your scroll case are gone! Hope you didn't have a buncha expensive ones in there.

Two things
1) I did say that certain scrolls wouldn't be droppable. (such as the ones already naturally red listed from selling- but maybe more too. So your 100 Mord scrolls would be safe.
2) I didn't ever suggest that the scrolls/jewlery would be lootable. Indeed, perhaps the wiping of scrolls/jewlery only occurs on PvE death? IDK. Just throwing it out there.

I actually agree that the carrot solution is by far preferable to stick. The problem I'm running into is that I can't think of a good carrot solution.

XP? Leveling is already obscenely quick. Are we sure we want to make it even quicker? And this doesn't help with encouraging level 30's to gang up.
Gold? We're activly looking for ways to drain gold OUT of the economy, not add it in.
Items? Tend to lean into the gold issue, though I'll say maybe this is the best option?

These two things are the main MECHANICAL ways of rewarding people. They both seem kinda saturated right now, so I don't know that we can use them as further reward.

We could find ways to incoporate mechanics similar to the goblins in groups?

Goblins get that fun little bonus that the more goblins are in a group or nearby they get (Soft) mechanical bonuses. It would -heavily- incentivize lower level groups or mid level groups to group together to clear content they might struggle with. Alernatively, Leader ship is a very fun skill if your a supportive person but it's kinda lackluster until you get up to 50, which takes a while. We could have the leadership skill give bonuses (Soft ones) to dungeon sort of specific things, maybe enough leadership increases experience gain by a small amount, increases your search or OL/DT. Doesn't need to just be flat temporary hp or Attack bonuses.

[Anomandaris]

I really do not like the approach of making pve content even more punishing, especially from an accessibility standpoint. One of Arelith's biggest strengths, in my opinion, is the low barrier of entry that allows for an appeal to a more casual audience. And that tends to help bring new players into the fold.

Soloing is healthy, and isn't something that should be sought to be taken away. It's part of what makes the sever fun, that not literally everything be better in a group.

Realistically speaking, short of a complete overhaul/rework of the looting system (and there doesn't need to be one), just remove the timer that is applied party wide for runic dungeons, and only apply individually. As in, if you have a 4 man group, you can do 4 runic dungeons back to back.

No new gold is being generated, beyond the 1000 or so inside the runic chest that would otherwise be empty on the subsequent runs. And it would help combat some of the ridiculous speculator market pricing on runes.

Fair, but there is so much content on the server it doesn’t all need to be accessible. I’ve found PvE to be fairly underwhelming with few exceptions (and I’ve leveled a fair variety of rogues, warlocks, BGs, sorcs, paladins, wizards, and a ranger). I get time zones are a thing too, and for some players finding a party is just tougher. I like soloing and parties, there def should be options for people.

I’m really only talking end game or higher level content. Leveling is pretty easy with writs, and there are inevitably a set of dungeons that are easier or harder based on your build and the specs of the mobs (e.g. cleric mass heal undead vs. rogue losing sneak dmg). Also it seems the player base has come to feel “entitled” to hit 30 with speed, ease and be rich at the end. Maybe we could adjust our expectations a little?

We could keep easier runic dungeons too, but put a hard scaling difficulty on dungeons with higher probability for higher tier loot. Align incentives with the challenge level so it’s not “I’m gonna circle grind this one dungeon because it’s easiest runic and I’ll eventually get good loot through RNG numbers game.”

At the end of the day what I’m going for with this is a dynamic of challenge, sense of accomplishment, rather than a very grindy play style of nonchalant curb stomping PvE present today.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

And it would help combat some of the ridiculous speculator market pricing on runes.

I saw this and wanted to highlight it because I think while a common train of thought this is wrong. More doesn't mean better pricing, because demand is what drives prices. For example, if I have ten of each the mid and higher tier bejeweled rune, I know that I can always sell for max value even though my stock is high. Why? Because everyone wants the thing that the mid-tier rune makes save for maybe strength builds (and even they could always want to carry houses on their back or something), and everyone wants the higher end bejeweled runes because at least rings are almost exclusively items that you have to rune that way, and everyone has two slots.

Ultimately what will drive the price down is affordability, and in that sense the instinct to lower the gold amounts is correct. But the transition period is going to be brutal for new characters, because the market is going to be a few months behind. Eventually though, assuming people continue to make new characters, the prices will have to come down.

One of the ways that the admins could control the prices of runes- and I'm actually not convinced that's something they want to do- Is set the value by selling it through a npc for x price. That would require everyone to sell beneath that threshold and will help the next six months or so of transition.

[Eyeliner]

I’ve tried to get people to go with me on writs but find it really difficult. I mean there’s a huge range of levels on the server and if you’re level 15 finding someone who’s on right now, is going to be where you can find them, is agreeable in alignment etc, is not doing anything else, HAS the writ to take and hasn’t completed it already… Can be tough unless prearranged on Discord or something. So I solo, because I can’t wait 2 hours to find a partner who may never show. Arranging at level 3 and 30 is a lot easier since most characters are one or the other but when you’re in the teens especially it seems like there’s no one around who’s interested.

Maybe if you could still get some (non-adventure) xp from a writ you’ve already done, IF you are partied up with someone who took it fresh? Or something like that, I feel like there could be some nudge to party up even if you did the writ already or have taken different writs that day.

[Paint]

I just want to dip in here real quick and mention that I don't think that making the solo experience more painful is necessarily a good way to incentivize group play, but it sure is the easiest.

[Security_Blanket]

Half the conversation here is about runes and I feel that is a whole other can of worms that could use its own forum topic. I've seen player-run stores with like 50+ runes and epic gems, regardless of the fact that this person has clearly more materials than they could realistically hold, because storage is another thing merchants should have to consider, but all these things stack so storage is no issue. Supply and demand doesn't work the same here, if you want to really hurt the prices of runes and stop people from soloing epic dungeons just for runes, then just make them available in NPC stores for about half of what players are asking for in their stores, job done. You're removing gold from the server just like you guys wanted, instead of it just being swapped around between players.

[Eyeliner]

I just want to dip in here real quick and mention that I don't think that making the solo experience more painful is necessarily a good way to incentivize group play, but it sure is the easiest.

I could tolerate some added pain but making it unviable isn’t going to do much to force grouping up when there’s no one around to group up with. Even if 100 players are on at peak-ish time it’s pretty easy to narrow that pool down to a handful who’d even be suitable, and if you’re on at non peak hours (like me, often) even Cordor or Anundor can be a ghost town.