ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Active DMs, Forum Moderators, Contributors

User avatar
ReverentBlade
Posts: 583
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by ReverentBlade » Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:40 am

I think tying it to spell foci when it is intended for melee builds is strange. Clerics are very feat starved. The builds I were testing did not have room for spell foci.


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Thu Jan 04, 2024 3:17 am

I can see that. Cleric should have some extra feats like wizard does... every 5th level or something? Making it linked to SF:GSF:ESF does make it hard for anyone not going full caster spread, very hard to use.


AstralUniverse
Posts: 2738
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by AstralUniverse » Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:51 am

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:40 am

I think tying it to spell foci when it is intended for melee builds is strange. Clerics are very feat starved. The builds I were testing did not have room for spell foci.

It's the other way around, sir.

By tying it to spell foci you control how many combat feats a battle-cleric would need to sacrifice to make more/less optimal investment in this feat. I dont think it should be a one-stop feat with no scaling with other feats. It's also an angle to allow caster clerics (who can sacrifice most/all combat feats) get even more, in trade, so we can potentially see casters who arent summoners for a change, since they could potentially relay on the aura for pve clear if it's good enough.

I think this spell's utility aspects (aura size, number of creatures affected, bonuses to the character) should scale with transmutation foci and aoe damage should scale with evocation foci.

Svrtr wrote:

I've spoken with Kenji and warpriest will be allowed to take elemental avatar so keep this in mind too


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:58 pm

Starbridge wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:00 am

I love this! I designed a character around this one thing. So I am looking forward to seeing it coming out. Though if I would to make any kind of suggestive feedback for it would be the following. This idea might get thrown to the side, and that's ok. When I was playing with it in test, it just seemed kind silly that each one had regen when the elementals you summon don't, only water has it. So I was thinking of properties that each of those elements might have.

x - large amount
y - medium amount
z - small amount

Air:
Size 6
+x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+y% concealment (allies gain 1/2)
+z elec damage (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y resist elec (allies gain =)

Earth:
Size 3
-x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+x DR (allies gain =)
+y blug damage to melee/range (allies gain =)
+z acid damage to melee (allies gain 1/2)

Fire:
Size 4
+x AoE fire pulse
+x fire damage to melee/range (allies gain 1/2)
+x slash damage (allies gain 1/2)
+x fire resist (allies gain 1/2)

Water:
Size 5
+x AoE regen pulse (allies gain =)
+. immu poison/disease (allies gain)
+z DR (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y cold resist (allies gain 1/2)

I have no idea how the radius sizes are calculated in NWN but this is kind of how I imagine them being. As air is the most freely moving element and earth being the more sluggish.

I appreciate the feedback, will respond as able as I've been busy in the post holiday work cycle. A couple things I'll mention

1) originally the spell was to focus the actual stats in the caster, as it was meant to allow for martial divine casters to be able to be competitive without relying on a summon, in turn too allowing them to be stronger in pve without crowding a dungeon with summons. The aura thing came later in the process

2) likewise the goal is to have the stats semi homogenized for the sake of ease of balance

While doing things like slowing the self in earth stream are flavorful and may be done in the future if ideas change, with how combat works and the distance crossed in dungeons it feels thoroughly unpleasant. Likewise too much on elemental resistance can make the design space for said elements more crowded when there is too much accessibility of DI such as with SS or the yeti pelt cloak, and so if elemental DI is done it would need to be sub 10%

I appreciate the ideas certainly but as is the goal is for the aura bonuses to not be too crazy. Overshadowing bard with a single spell and potentially single line of foci with poison immunity and bonus damage for allies would be a step too far, especially with the existence of things like AA and WM getting bonus damage

For air, concealment was considered but it's interactions with effects like faerie fire and the ability shield ac allowed for diversity a la 2h or dual wield or archer without monk or vigi was deemed better.

I'll consider the DI aspect for self and allies at least however, but I worry about putting more into a feat that does a lot and as admittedly whose wiki page shadows the other epic spell pages in mechanics lol


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:03 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:40 am

I think tying it to spell foci when it is intended for melee builds is strange. Clerics are very feat starved. The builds I were testing did not have room for spell foci.

At the end of the day, the spell is an epic transmutation spell. With how spells are coded, even epic spells, they MUST be assigned a school, and even flavorfully as well as mechanically it was meant to be an epic transmutation spell

It is fair to say it's difficult to fit on anything that isn't a warpriest with fighter levels or a shaman, and that is why the core stats are untouched and the foci affect the auras only. The auras are not the focus, but an aspect, and where you have spells like planar conduit and mummy dust who scale with their associated foci, elemental avatar having no benefit for going for the foci it's associated with would be a strange matter. Not unprecedented as EMA doesn't scale with abjuration, but it would be a shame. Hence why the aura scales.

In the case of shaman and warpriest, while it's easy to point to their CL scaling and look at them with jealous eyes, in practice both seem to mildly underperform. In the case of shaman, I've a thread going through it in detail but it pays more to do less, where as warpriest giving up summons was a major sticking point

If the numbers seem unjustified and people want to see the auras bonuses from foci decreased, I am open to numbers and ideas as always, but the actual scaling of the aura via transmutation foci and perhaps miscellaneous bonuses from evocation will stay in the core ideas


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:06 pm

AstralUniverse wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:51 am
ReverentBlade wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 1:40 am

I think tying it to spell foci when it is intended for melee builds is strange. Clerics are very feat starved. The builds I were testing did not have room for spell foci.

It's the other way around, sir.

By tying it to spell foci you control how many combat feats a battle-cleric would need to sacrifice to make more/less optimal investment in this feat. I dont think it should be a one-stop feat with no scaling with other feats. It's also an angle to allow caster clerics (who can sacrifice most/all combat feats) get even more, in trade, so we can potentially see casters who arent summoners for a change, since they could potentially relay on the aura for pve clear if it's good enough.

I think this spell's utility aspects (aura size, number of creatures affected, bonuses to the character) should scale with transmutation foci and aoe damage should scale with evocation foci.

I am not opposed, but albeit the evocation bonus on air was more a cool thing that Zadi, the other major dev behind elemental avatar, brought up. I thought it was cool and so it was included. It could be expanded to other streams of the aura, albeit it won't be a focus

As for caster, due to the fact fire is only damage on martial and this had been balanced around martial stats across fvs/shaman/cleric, it would likely be easier to make a caster equivalent sister feat. It's an idea I've given mind to and worked on, but not a guarantee. It will depend on how avatar fares once it hits live


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:39 am

Svrtr wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:58 pm
Starbridge wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2024 12:00 am

I love this! I designed a character around this one thing. So I am looking forward to seeing it coming out. Though if I would to make any kind of suggestive feedback for it would be the following. This idea might get thrown to the side, and that's ok. When I was playing with it in test, it just seemed kind silly that each one had regen when the elementals you summon don't, only water has it. So I was thinking of properties that each of those elements might have.

x - large amount
y - medium amount
z - small amount

Air:
Size 6
+x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+y% concealment (allies gain 1/2)
+z elec damage (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y resist elec (allies gain =)

Earth:
Size 3
-x% movement speed (allies gain =)
+x DR (allies gain =)
+y blug damage to melee/range (allies gain =)
+z acid damage to melee (allies gain 1/2)

Fire:
Size 4
+x AoE fire pulse
+x fire damage to melee/range (allies gain 1/2)
+x slash damage (allies gain 1/2)
+x fire resist (allies gain 1/2)

Water:
Size 5
+x AoE regen pulse (allies gain =)
+. immu poison/disease (allies gain)
+z DR (allies gain =)
+y cold damage (allies gain 1/2)
+y cold resist (allies gain 1/2)

I have no idea how the radius sizes are calculated in NWN but this is kind of how I imagine them being. As air is the most freely moving element and earth being the more sluggish.

I appreciate the feedback, will respond as able as I've been busy in the post holiday work cycle. A couple things I'll mention

1) originally the spell was to focus the actual stats in the caster, as it was meant to allow for martial divine casters to be able to be competitive without relying on a summon, in turn too allowing them to be stronger in pve without crowding a dungeon with summons. The aura thing came later in the process

2) likewise the goal is to have the stats semi homogenized for the sake of ease of balance

While doing things like slowing the self in earth stream are flavorful and may be done in the future if ideas change, with how combat works and the distance crossed in dungeons it feels thoroughly unpleasant. Likewise too much on elemental resistance can make the design space for said elements more crowded when there is too much accessibility of DI such as with SS or the yeti pelt cloak, and so if elemental DI is done it would need to be sub 10%

I appreciate the ideas certainly but as is the goal is for the aura bonuses to not be too crazy. Overshadowing bard with a single spell and potentially single line of foci with poison immunity and bonus damage for allies would be a step too far, especially with the existence of things like AA and WM getting bonus damage

For air, concealment was considered but it's interactions with effects like faerie fire and the ability shield ac allowed for diversity a la 2h or dual wield or archer without monk or vigi was deemed better.

I'll consider the DI aspect for self and allies at least however, but I worry about putting more into a feat that does a lot and as admittedly whose wiki page shadows the other epic spell pages in mechanics lol

I don't think it would overshadow bard. Avatar has a 30 sec cooldown before it can be reused.
Bards can change a song in an instant. But about the poison immunity, it's more of a... while inside, not something that will cleans it when you enter. That was also why I suggested medium damage and allies would only gain half.

Cold damage... I'm thinking like... 4 or 5, so allies would only get 2. If you were worried about numbers being too high.

But as I said before, I modeled this after the presentation of the elementals we currently have when summoning.
I could also come up with other lists of things that might be plausible. I do really want to see this ability in game, I have a character that I designed completely around this for RP! :D

A bonus to AC instead of concealment?

In no way was I thinking any bonuses to be really big. I was going for more of an accent to what your current build already is. For % bonuses, nothing above 10% and flat numbers, on the high end 6, low end 2.

Since I have been a part of many MMOs some of which I have been very active in forums with suggestions, many many many D&D groups where a lot of custom things were done. It always better to start with smaller numbers and build them up as needed rather than start high... then have to nerf and deal with all the whining that comes with said nerf by players that have quickly become accustom to the abuse they are dishing out. lol

I'm here to help and enjoy balance.

As a side note... I turned 3.5e into a point base buy system one day at work on note cards. Played it a few times and it all came out very balanced for a fleeting idea. lol


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:54 pm

Just an update.

Been slow with the holidays and real life but work continues.

The fact that damage doesn't apply to ranged weapons is known and is jank involving the code. You can't apply, say, d10 fire to bows because of how they are coded vs arrows. One way to give damage is to apply bonus damage directly to the character themself, in the same way divine might is added. This damage is true damage and cannot be increased by vulnerability nor decreased by damage resistance or immunity

So with that I intend to make the following changes:

Damage scaling changed to d2+1/d4+2/d6/+3

For water/earth and air/fire. The added portion will be applied to the character directly. Notably this would mean +3 on fire would ignore fire immunity or 5/-

Likewise I intend to see about reducing the stealth malus to -30, and -15 on water. The reason being both that the water divination aura is already something accrued from stealthing and so it is thematic, and likewise to help give water a stronger niche that allows for disengaging to Regen more and bandage


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:59 pm

Starbridge wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:39 am

Stuff

Yes. Shield ac specifically. Dodge ac and concealment were initially considered but dodge ac would risk ac bloat and only further serve to have cleric/fvs/shaman best with a 1h weapon and shield, and concealment risks either being too good or too weak depending on values and if the enemy has faerie fire

Shield ac allows for a niche In letting the above have decent AC with a 2h weapon or dual wielding or bow, allowing for more build versatility

I appreciate the feedback for sure, but having a more constrained baseline function and the streams alter numbers makes it easier to balance. So I'm content to have the basic 4 stats and aura passives, but if after it hits live it's deemed to need more then some DI based on Element is a strong contender (albeit not physical DI from earth or water). Aka it's not the values themselves but the number of varying values.

It's easier to work and balance from a solid core and work outward than to balance four streams that are wildly distinct. Distinction is a romantic ideal but adds complexity for balancing (and worsens what is already an expensive feat with a long wiki page lol)


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Sat Mar 23, 2024 5:08 am

Good to hear. Looking forward to this coming out as it is going to be a rather larger part of the RP build I have going with one character.

There is one thing I would like to see changed, if possible. The visual effects. I would much rather have something more... subtle. The large colored ring, great. The other effects inside the ring kinda drive me bonkers and mess with my head. Not to mention distracting.

Would be great to have a toggle for the sounds too. It's... just a very BUSY thing going on.


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:30 pm

Now that I have had more time to think about it. The internal visual effects and sounds effects really need to be removed. Simply based on how busy the ability is, if you have a couple people wanting to just troll they could make a kind of hell. Anyone that is using a machine that is on the lower end is going to have a hard time running it visually and the sounds of more than one going is going to suck for speakers. The large colored ring denoting which elements you have should be totally fine, even if more than one are running.


Stonas
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:52 pm

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Stonas » Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:07 pm

So, my first impression was "Hell yes, I love this idea", but then it was pointed out to me that this is an Epic "Divine" spell, and that makes absolutely zero sense to me.

I understand that Druids and Shaman have a stronger tie to elemental magics, but the fact remains that elemental magics are traditionally at least equally available to arcane casters. I think this would be a great tool to have available on builds on arcane casters at all. I see no reason to restrict this spell to either divine or arcane casters only.

How would an "Elementalist" for example not qualify for "Elemental Avatar". Add this to all epic spell qualifying arcane casters too please.


Lord Blacktooth
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:16 pm

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Lord Blacktooth » Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:24 pm

Any idea when this is coming to the live servers?


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:05 pm

Starbridge wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:30 pm

Now that I have had more time to think about it. The internal visual effects and sounds effects really need to be removed. Simply based on how busy the ability is, if you have a couple people wanting to just troll they could make a kind of hell. Anyone that is using a machine that is on the lower end is going to have a hard time running it visually and the sounds of more than one going is going to suck for speakers. The large colored ring denoting which elements you have should be totally fine, even if more than one are running.

Ill look into it. Due to its effect a VFX will be necessary, but once the last mechanical problem subsides I intend to focus on the vfx


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:08 pm

Stonas wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:07 pm

So, my first impression was "Hell yes, I love this idea", but then it was pointed out to me that this is an Epic "Divine" spell, and that makes absolutely zero sense to me.

I understand that Druids and Shaman have a stronger tie to elemental magics, but the fact remains that elemental magics are traditionally at least equally available to arcane casters. I think this would be a great tool to have available on builds on arcane casters at all. I see no reason to restrict this spell to either divine or arcane casters only.

How would an "Elementalist" for example not qualify for "Elemental Avatar". Add this to all epic spell qualifying arcane casters too please.

A few factors:

1) It is based off of the avatar of storm spell which was druid only, and opened up to divine casters. The reason this is is it is meant to be a pseudo divine counterpart to EMA which is arcane only

2) As per the last part, EMA is hella good as is, and as such this is a cookie for divine casters and would be far too good with arcane casters if they could have both (requiring an exception)

3) ELementalist is an arelithism in lore and class, and while it is cool infinicasters are a box of balance concerns. Elementalist can get EMA, does not need this, should wait to get more given the recent patch, and likewise I would rather not make the choice to approve another class I don't work on getting this spell and would first want to hear the dev behind elementalist deem they might deserve access.

With that said, I have considered a caster equivalent to ele avatar, which is possible once this goes live


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:08 pm

Lord Blacktooth wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:24 pm

Any idea when this is coming to the live servers?

Soon tm (If I am lucky I can finally sort the last problem tonight, but I make no promises because last time I thought it was ready it broke)


Stonas
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:52 pm

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Stonas » Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:43 am

Svrtr wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:08 pm

A few factors:

1) It is based off of the avatar of storm spell which was druid only, and opened up to divine casters. The reason this is is it is meant to be a pseudo divine counterpart to EMA which is arcane only

2) As per the last part, EMA is hella good as is, and as such this is a cookie for divine casters and would be far too good with arcane casters if they could have both (requiring an exception)

3) ELementalist is an arelithism in lore and class, and while it is cool infinicasters are a box of balance concerns. Elementalist can get EMA, does not need this, should wait to get more given the recent patch, and likewise I would rather not make the choice to approve another class I don't work on getting this spell and would first want to hear the dev behind elementalist deem they might deserve access.

With that said, I have considered a caster equivalent to ele avatar, which is possible once this goes live

So, while I understand your position here, let me offer up some considerations.

EMA is not as powerful as people make it out to be. It's +5 each to deflection, armor, natural, and dodge bonus. The only one of these that can be stacked is dodge.

For natural, divine gets Barkskin early, which will give even a divine character with no bonus +4 via wand. Arcane gets shadow shield but only at a much higher circle for +5. EMA Effective is no gain for natural.

For deflection, divine gets shield of faith for I believe +4 via wand, up to +5 from spellbook. Arcane gets Shield for +4. EMA gains arcane +1 here

For armor, divine gets magic vestments for +4 I believe via wand. Arcane gets +2 via GMA, so EMA is a +3

For dodge, divine doesn't have any base spells, but for a warpriest as I gather the focus for this spell is for, they would likely have divine shield. Even assuming a base 13 cha, with buffs that is +7 for divine. Arcane gets the +2 from GMA and it's overwritten by EMA for +5, another net +3.

For shield, divine gets another +4 or +5 from magic vestment, arcane has no bonus here.

Adding this all up for divine:
Natural +4 to +5
Deflection +4 to +5
Armor +4 to +5
Shield +4 to +5
Dodge +0 to +11 or more
Low of +16, high of +31

For arcane:
Natural +5
Deflection +5
Armor +5
Shield +0
Dodge +5
A steady +20, and even without EMA can achieve +13

And all of this is prior to the extra armor divine casters can have through armor and shield equipment by not having to deal with ASF, but to be fair the arcane caster who would use this spell if available would have a lot who use armor and still spell.

Sorry for the long post, but while non ss melee arcane are rare, we do exist, and this would be an amazing option. I also think it would be great in general to find more ways to bring "nonviable" builds to more of a viable state. If there's an arcane version coming, fine, but please do not think EMA is a god spell, it just brings abyssal AC to won't always die to low level melee lol.


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:27 am

Svrtr wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:05 pm
Starbridge wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:30 pm

Now that I have had more time to think about it. The internal visual effects and sounds effects really need to be removed. Simply based on how busy the ability is, if you have a couple people wanting to just troll they could make a kind of hell. Anyone that is using a machine that is on the lower end is going to have a hard time running it visually and the sounds of more than one going is going to suck for speakers. The large colored ring denoting which elements you have should be totally fine, even if more than one are running.

Ill look into it. Due to its effect a VFX will be necessary, but once the last mechanical problem subsides I intend to focus on the vfx

Thank you Svrtr! I just don't want to see this ability being used as a troll tool, and since it's going to be a hinge ability for one of my characters, she's going to be running it as water nearly 24/7. So I didn't want to annoy a lot of people with the sound of visuals. Not to mention as I said before, if you have a handful of people that just all walk around with it going.

I do love the large ring. A very good indicator as it.


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:50 am

Stonas wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:43 am

So, while I understand your position here, let me offer up some considerations.

EMA is not as powerful as people make it out to be. It's +5 each to deflection, armor, natural, and dodge bonus. The only one of these that can be stacked is dodge.

For natural, divine gets Barkskin early, which will give even a divine character with no bonus +4 via wand. Arcane gets shadow shield but only at a much higher circle for +5. EMA Effective is no gain for natural.

For deflection, divine gets shield of faith for I believe +4 via wand, up to +5 from spellbook. Arcane gets Shield for +4. EMA gains arcane +1 here

For armor, divine gets magic vestments for +4 I believe via wand. Arcane gets +2 via GMA, so EMA is a +3

For dodge, divine doesn't have any base spells, but for a warpriest as I gather the focus for this spell is for, they would likely have divine shield. Even assuming a base 13 cha, with buffs that is +7 for divine. Arcane gets the +2 from GMA and it's overwritten by EMA for +5, another net +3.

For shield, divine gets another +4 or +5 from magic vestment, arcane has no bonus here.

Adding this all up for divine:
Natural +4 to +5
Deflection +4 to +5
Armor +4 to +5
Shield +4 to +5
Dodge +0 to +11 or more
Low of +16, high of +31

For arcane:
Natural +5
Deflection +5
Armor +5
Shield +0
Dodge +5
A steady +20, and even without EMA can achieve +13

And all of this is prior to the extra armor divine casters can have through armor and shield equipment by not having to deal with ASF, but to be fair the arcane caster who would use this spell if available would have a lot who use armor and still spell.

Sorry for the long post, but while non ss melee arcane are rare, we do exist, and this would be an amazing option. I also think it would be great in general to find more ways to bring "nonviable" builds to more of a viable state. If there's an arcane version coming, fine, but please do not think EMA is a god spell, it just brings abyssal AC to won't always die to low level melee lol.

No need to apologize for the post

It's not about the ac values themselves as much as the fact EMA is unbreachable and undispellable, and so will be elemental avatar.

Having and unbreachable and undispellable amount of +5 deflection and dodge and natural ac and the ability to turn any armor into a +5 armor should not be underestimated, especially when hemomancer and air elementalist reach approximately 58-61 ac depending on if they use 3 parry ac or go autostill 1 and a green steel large shield.

The math on this for air elementalist specifically is

10 base
20 ema
7 armor from the in impermissicon from 5 base 2 dex, but many I know go the full mile for 9 using armor of immolation for 1 base 8 dex
3 air dodge ac
6 tumble
4 haste
2 armor skin
1 mage armor
1 boots
3 parry or 5 Green steel large shield

For a total of 57 with the impermissicon and parry, 59 with the Impermissicon and green steel large shield, 61 if you go for the armor of immolation

Elemental avatar would be a single feat instead of the two feats for auto still 1, and would give 1 more ac than the green steel large shield with air stream if air stream remains 6 shield ac, pushing the ac to 60-62 while also opening up a bonus feat, providing regeneration and damage resistance, and minorly a damage aura.
Elementalist getting EA is not something I am blanket opposed to, but it would require at minimum an EA exception and I would still want Amnesy aka the dev behind invoker to be asking to do it first while also needing to code a method for it to drain spell component charges like it does piety

Just to reiterate, the concern isn't the ac alone but the combined facts of the ac, being unbreachable and undispellable, reducing the feat tax to as much or more effect, and gaining the other values. The current values were balanced around what can be done and achieved on divine casters as EMA represents that large of a difference in balance, and so this is meant to be more or less a bone for divine casters as a result, especially with the Invoker armors having 0% asf with their asf reduction


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:51 am

Starbridge wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:27 am
Svrtr wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:05 pm
Starbridge wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:30 pm

Now that I have had more time to think about it. The internal visual effects and sounds effects really need to be removed. Simply based on how busy the ability is, if you have a couple people wanting to just troll they could make a kind of hell. Anyone that is using a machine that is on the lower end is going to have a hard time running it visually and the sounds of more than one going is going to suck for speakers. The large colored ring denoting which elements you have should be totally fine, even if more than one are running.

Ill look into it. Due to its effect a VFX will be necessary, but once the last mechanical problem subsides I intend to focus on the vfx

Thank you Svrtr! I just don't want to see this ability being used as a troll tool, and since it's going to be a hinge ability for one of my characters, she's going to be running it as water nearly 24/7. So I didn't want to annoy a lot of people with the sound of visuals. Not to mention as I said before, if you have a handful of people that just all walk around with it going.

I do love the large ring. A very good indicator as it.

Keep too in mind it is a toggle. You can turn it on and off, it's not a one time activation. So if people are refusing to turn it off they're doing it sheerly out of spite in rp or some reason to fear it. I imagine it won't be a major problem in practice, but vfx will be something I do after it's working


Stonas
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2023 3:52 pm

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Stonas » Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:33 pm

Svrtr wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:50 am

No need to apologize for the post

It's not about the ac values themselves as much as the fact EMA is unbreachable and undispellable, and so will be elemental avatar.

Having and unbreachable and undispellable amount of +5 deflection and dodge and natural ac and the ability to turn any armor into a +5 armor should not be underestimated, especially when hemomancer and air elementalist reach approximately 58-61 ac depending on if they use 3 parry ac or go autostill 1 and a green steel large shield.

The math on this for air elementalist specifically is

10 base
20 ema
7 armor from the in impermissicon from 5 base 2 dex, but many I know go the full mile for 9 using armor of immolation for 1 base 8 dex
3 air dodge ac
6 tumble
4 haste
2 armor skin
1 mage armor
1 boots
3 parry or 5 Green steel large shield

For a total of 57 with the impermissicon and parry, 59 with the Impermissicon and green steel large shield, 61 if you go for the armor of immolation

Elemental avatar would be a single feat instead of the two feats for auto still 1, and would give 1 more ac than the green steel large shield with air stream if air stream remains 6 shield ac, pushing the ac to 60-62 while also opening up a bonus feat, providing regeneration and damage resistance, and minorly a damage aura.
Elementalist getting EA is not something I am blanket opposed to, but it would require at minimum an EA exception and I would still want Amnesy aka the dev behind invoker to be asking to do it first while also needing to code a method for it to drain spell component charges like it does piety

Just to reiterate, the concern isn't the ac alone but the combined facts of the ac, being unbreachable and undispellable, reducing the feat tax to as much or more effect, and gaining the other values. The current values were balanced around what can be done and achieved on divine casters as EMA represents that large of a difference in balance, and so this is meant to be more or less a bone for divine casters as a result, especially with the Invoker armors having 0% asf with their asf reduction

Alright, that makes more sense at least, thank you for the explanation, I admit I was disregarding the dispelling aspect.

I am 100% fine with the idea that if it comes to Arcane or gets an arcane equivalent that it gets some tweaking to not be OP, however honestly I do not think that AC is too outrageous, especially in PVP, with the state of the server. Honestly would love to see more options for truly defensive arcane casters, though I admit personal prejudice here as it's my favorite play style, arcane tanks! And while having the SS as an option is nice, it's not the end-all-be-all arcane melee that some consider. I personally do not like the SS class and would prefer to play a Fighter/Wizard mix. As a result my character is one that is fairly useless in dealing melee damage, but is sacrificing this for his defensive capabilities. That being said, the defense is almost non-existent, especially in PVP. When the player meta is to get AB into the 50s, an AC of 60 isn't all that defensive.

Either way, interesting spell, my feedback is im a jelly donut that I dont get it on Wizard :P


Starbridge
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2023 2:24 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Starbridge » Thu Apr 04, 2024 3:12 am

Svrtr wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:51 am
Starbridge wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:27 am
Svrtr wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:05 pm

Ill look into it. Due to its effect a VFX will be necessary, but once the last mechanical problem subsides I intend to focus on the vfx

Thank you Svrtr! I just don't want to see this ability being used as a troll tool, and since it's going to be a hinge ability for one of my characters, she's going to be running it as water nearly 24/7. So I didn't want to annoy a lot of people with the sound of visuals. Not to mention as I said before, if you have a handful of people that just all walk around with it going.

I do love the large ring. A very good indicator as it.

Keep too in mind it is a toggle. You can turn it on and off, it's not a one time activation. So if people are refusing to turn it off they're doing it sheerly out of spite in rp or some reason to fear it. I imagine it won't be a major problem in practice, but vfx will be something I do after it's working

It's just nice to see a dev team that actually takes notes for things people bring to the table. I've seen some really amazing things in NWN servers in the past. Good effects and scripting, only to watch people take the ideas a bit too far to ruin things for others. So even if you didn't change them, I'm just happy that you took the time to read something that I thought might end up being a problem and responding with saying you would look into it. :)


User avatar
solar separation
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 83
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:51 pm
Location: Space Station 3 (Have you seen Carmen Miranda's ghost?)
Contact:

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by solar separation » Mon Apr 08, 2024 7:54 am

The VFX are being overhauled. If anyone has any additional ideas / input regarding how intensive / subtle the effects should be, please post below. Thank you.

MOVING FORWARD PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE USE IMGUR OR SIMILAR SUCH SITES TO HOST YOUR IMAGES IF YOU COME ACROSS ANY ERRORS THANK YOUUUU!


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Mon Apr 08, 2024 4:43 pm

They don't have the dev tag (yet) on the forums here but solar separation above will be controlling the VFX so please do listen to them, as I trust their eye on the matter


User avatar
Svrtr
Arelith Silver Supporter
Arelith Silver Supporter
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon May 18, 2020 2:10 am

Re: ELEMENTAL AVATAR PGCC FEEDBACK

Post by Svrtr » Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:30 pm

With elemental avatar nearly ready for live release, I will first post its (likely) final stats that it will have on live

ELEMENTAL AVATAR - Epic Transmutation Spell

Requirements:
24 Spellcraft
Epic divine caster (21 levels ofdruid, shaman, cleric, favored soul)
Ability to cast 9th spells

Upon taking this feat you unlock a new stance ability that may be slotted on your hotbar and functions as a toggle. Upon activation you take on an elemental form that applies a series of bonuses and maluses based on your active elemental stream.

Restrictions:

  • Activating divine might or shield deactivates elemental avatar, and vice versa
  • Cannot be used with polymorph or shapechange effects
  • Cannot be used with other stance effects like defensive stance, only one may be active at a time in the same way as combat modes as expertise or power attack (Note that this CAN be used with combat modes like expertise)
  • While active, this spell drains 0.1% of your piety per round, drained every 1 turn. Ending the stance early does not negate the piety drain (IE every 1 minute you lose 1% piety, if you end the stance 7 rounds since the last piety tick you will still lose 0.7% piety).
  • If you drop to 0% piety the stance will automatically end

Maluses:

  • While active, the user suffers -30 to hide and movesilently (reduced to -15 with the water stream)
  • While active, all summons the user controls are dismissed and they become unable to summon

Stats:

(NOTE: The damage is applied once per round like other heartbeat effects)

FIRE:
d6+3 fire damage
2 regeneration
2 shield AC
4/- damage resistance
3d6 fire damage aura in a large radius

WATER:
d2+1 cold damage
6 regeneration, this regeneration is also applied to allies in the aura
2 shield AC
4/- damage resistance
3d2 cold damage aura in a huge radius

EARTH:
d4+2 acid damage
4 regeneration
1 shield AC
6/- damage resistance
3d4 acid damage aura in a large radius

AIR:
d4+2 electric damage
4 regeneration
4 shield AC
2/- damage resistance
3d4 electric damage aura in a large radius

NOTE ABOUT THE DAMAGE: The damage die portion of the damage, the d2/d4/d6, because of how ranged weapons are coded this does not work on ranged weapons. It also likewise respects 5/-

Conversely, the added portion, the +1/+2/+3, applies to ALL weapons. It ignores DI and DR, but also isn't increased with vulnerability. Thus ranged weapons get the +1/+2/+3

With the stats said, I wanted to make some final comments:

1) Yes, the shield AC was nerfed. Balance concerns were raised and it was eventually agreed it should be reduced. This may or may not be returned to its original values pending live feedback and performance judgement

2) Concerns about the VFX were noted, and new VFX are being worked on. These will release separately in a future update but they have not been forgotten

3) I will be closely monitoring any and all feedback on performance, bugs, concerns, etc. I will only ask that numbers and math be provided in feedback as it makes comparative arguments easier to judge.

This will be the final update on the PGCC before live I imagine. Please post any feedback about numbers here that will be considered. My hopeful goal is to see this released tomorrow or monday, but else this final update is largely to test bugs on the PGCC above all else.

EDIT: For reference, yes, warpriest will still be able to take ele avatar. Likewise I have made some basic ele avatar builds here for people to judge and reference if they wish: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =927634149


Locked