Loss of Runic Potential under the Dweomer Rework

[Coolguy McMagic]

So with the dweomercrafting rework coming out, some items will lose their ability to be runed. I decided to open another thread for this, so the information remains easily accessible and because this may be more of a balance question than something related to the rework itself. I don't know if there is any intetntion to adjust these items or to address this matter in any way, but I think it's at least good to know about it.

This list is not comprehensive and it’s impossible to perfectly reconstruct it now as the old dweomering system is gone from the PGCC, but here is a list of items I remember could be runed previously, but can no longer be under the new system (because they reach the point maximum earlier now). This includes BOTH items that were innately runic but offered the option of adding a second rune and items that were not innately runic, but still had a low enough amount of properties OR were set up in some way to accept a rune anyway.

Enchanted Silk Shirt: Not runic, but accepted a T3 Rune

Ashwood Ranged Weapons (Light/Heavy Crossbows and Long/shortbows): Innately runic and accepted a T3 rune afterwards

Enchanted Elite Sling: Not runic, but accepted a T3 rune

Ranger Runic Leathers: Innately Runic and accepted a T2 rune afterwards

Headband of Protection: Innately runic and accepted a T3 rune afterwards

Disciple’s Garb: Innately runic and accepted a T3 rune afterwards

Armor of Immolation: By replacing the Fire Resistance property with a Fire Resistance Defensive Essence, the armor would accept a T3 rune

Serpent’s Woe Aegis: Never actually tested this myself, but I believe it accepted a rune after using up the innate one

Slippers of Soft Movement: Innately runic and accepted another T3 rune afterwards

Adamantine Bracers: All the variants except the Persuasion one accepted T3 runes if I remember correctly. They’re now either close to the point max or exceeding it. Though now you could technically lower some of the skills you don’t need to get more points out of them, so hard to really evaluate.

If anyone can think of any other I am missing, please post them here.

[AstralUniverse]

Penumbral vestment and other such properties-heavy items with exactly 4 properties and a runic property could be enchanted with +1 singular save and then still allow T3 rune afterwards, resulting in properties value way way higher than the 32 cap. Now impossible anymore.

[Shadowy Reality]

When the update hits either bump the numbers so we can do the same thing as before, or tune down existing items.

Please let's not create another generation of grandfathered items that never really vanish and are passed down as heirlooms for years to come.

[AstralUniverse]

How about we please dont nerf existing items. Please.

[Gerhazo]

All of the three sailing set items currently accept a rune, which lets people put an attribute on them (in context of sailing, common choice being wisdom).
Because of it being possible to downgrade properties (I assume this is an intentional part of the system?), some of the items benefit, some lose.

The sailing coat starts at -5 points.
Its 3AC (18 points) can be downgraded to 1AC, refunding 12 points and bringing the total to 7 points.
Its +2 fortitude saving throw can be downgraded to 1, refunding 2 points, bringing the total to 9 points.
A rune can be applied, with a masterwork bringing the coat up to 15 points.
The coat becomes more versatile enchanting-wise if someone doesn't need the AC or saving throws, allowing an attribute even without a rune, as well as several skills when runed.

On the other hand,
The sailing amulet starts with -29 points, most of the negative because of its 25% electricity immunity, which counts as 25 points.
The 25% electricity immunity can be downgraded to 5%, refunding 20 points and bringing the total to -9 points
Its +3 electricity saving throws can be downgraded to 1, refunding 2 points, bringing the total to -7 points.
Its +2 AC can be downgraded to +1, returning 6 points, bringing the total to -1 points.
Even with a masterwork rune, on the sailing amulet it appears impossible to fit an attribute, unlike the old system. Though some skills can be fitted, instead.

Don't use/possess the sailing cloak to check how it fares.

[Quidix]

Sargeant's Cloak comes to mind - it could be 5% and then runed, adding 2x stats.

This topic is important as if not done well, we'll have large grandfathering imbalances at our hands. My main worry is that old characters can 'keep the very best' of the olds items, and then use the new systems for flexible items where it suits them - making them even more powerful.

I do hope the team has a plan for how to handle legacy items. I suspect my preferred solution to remove them & grant them new items is unlikely. I hope other solutions are being considered, such as (1) making legacy items untradeable, (2) making characters unable to wear legacy and old items at the same time, and / or (3) some phasing out plan, say for a year (at the year point, those characters will have enjoyed the grandfathered items for close to 1.5 years since the 5% system was turned off).

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I really hope we aren't heading toward a generation of grandfathered items. It's just another added reason to not want to roll up new characters to a list that has been growing a lot lately. I'm sure there will be debate about this, and I'm sure there will be validity to both sides, but the only side that should matter is what's good for the game. And grandfathered power bloat is no good for the game.

You already have it with wealth and really old characters that have bonuses you can't get with new characters, please don't be foolish and add to that with raw mechanical power.

[Kythana]

There absolutely is some double/triple hard 5% gear floating around that is nowhere near possible to make now. My hope is that anything that is unable to be created post rework is bound to the character that currently equips it. Make it unable to trade, remove from inventory, or muled in any way. Let those items gradually vanish.

That being said, I don't think most of these are that big of an issue. Rework allows for skill stacking and individual save stacking a lot easier than before. Most builds, with the exception of some weird quad stats ones, are mostly pretty intuitive to gear still.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Unless they write a program that can not only identify which thing of x or y has been modified while also identifying what system modified it and can then set it to no drop the idea of making the old items nontransferable is kind of a pipe dream. A program like that seems like I got caught in a tornado and now I'm in Oz, but there are quite a few wizards on the dev staff so who knows.

As for it not being a big deal, just looking at the sail gear example above that's two things that sell for a boat load (pun intended) of coins as is. And while I guess it will lower the prices of any found post change, the modified ones after the changes are going to skyrocket in price. I'm sure that's not the only example of useful items too, and if you think people aren't already planning to get mega rich when the change happens you either haven't been playing arelith that long or you don't pay attention. The system has been on the PGCC for far longer than necessary to figure out what the good prospects are, and honestly had I not bought into the "It's all going to be the same but easier" line we got at the beginning I would be there with them.

Anyways, I can't give examples because I haven't done the work, so it's possible I'm overblowing this a little. I generally hate grandfathered things because I hate the idea that someone is running around with more potential power than me, even though I rarely make super powerful builds. It's just one of those things that makes the game feel lopsided toward the past, which in turn makes the present and future seem dim. And normally I would just let something that fits that description go by wordlessly and see how it plays out.

But if this gets as funky as I think it will, it's going to be a tough genie to try and mash back into the bottle.

[Anomandaris]

Balance and mechanics are important. It's really hard to create a balanced system in a DND setting a very old game engine.

That said, it's better to not mess with players' items and force a bunch of pain for a modicum of dubious balance benefit. When it doubt, unless game breaking OP, just leave it.

For the love of all that is holy please don't make me re-gear and lose hundreds of thousands of coin I invested in a hard 5 because someone doesn't feel great about me having 1 more uni save on a belt. It really does not affect anyone's experience and only poses a huge annoyance and inconvenience, as well as very real, non-recoupable material loss.

[Coolguy McMagic]

Found out that the Infiltrator's Belt also had more runic potential than expected: after using up the rune on it, it was still able to be runed with a T2 rune despite already having too many properties. The difference is marginal compared to the new system though and can likely be fixed by just enchanting one of the +4 skills with a lower property.

[Peacelily]

For the love of all that is holy please don't make me re-gear and lose hundreds of thousands of coin I invested in a hard 5 because someone doesn't feel great about me having 1 more uni save on a belt. It really does not affect anyone's experience and only poses a huge annoyance and inconvenience, as well as very real, non-recoupable material loss.

And for people who have multiple double-5%ed items? Because yes, they exist, and I can name a few easily. That's not 1 more uni save, that's 5 more uni saves.

[Coolguy McMagic]

For the love of all that is holy please don't make me re-gear and lose hundreds of thousands of coin I invested in a hard 5 because someone doesn't feel great about me having 1 more uni save on a belt. It really does not affect anyone's experience and only poses a huge annoyance and inconvenience, as well as very real, non-recoupable material loss.

And for people who have multiple double-5%ed items? Because yes, they exist, and I can name a few easily. That's not 1 more uni save, that's 5 more uni saves.

Not really. Most item setups are the same or about the same with the new system. The only items that truly matter are the ones I am trying to list here, and you are rarely going to use more than maybe two at a time. Having a lot of legacy hard 5 items won't matter much if you can replace them all with items under the new system.