About Loremasters

[Quidix]

What stood out to me in the recent class player count is how prominent loremaster have become (20% LM vs 7% rogue dip vs 7% bard dip).

It's both mechanically good (+1AC, +1AC barkskin wand, +1AB, +1AB BW scroll, 30 HP, 10 lore), and gets many and unique RP features.

One way to address this without weakening LM , is to open up the RP features, making it possible for other classes to get it. The starting point would be to open up mundane secrets as general / epic feats:

• Exploration - general

• Gathering - general

• The Artisan - epic

• Tutor - epic

• Add bonus language feat? (2x slots per feat?) - general

• Add bonus mundane messenger feat? - epic (a version of the illusion secret, but an actual personal messenger?)

I think this would even the playing field rather than making LM always the best choice for any build that likes RP features.

What do you think? Why should these things be restricted to LM?

[Cnaym]

I'd love to see the exploration secret added as a general, so people without wisdom as their attribute can catch up a little more when it comes to sailing by giving up some combat power tbh.

Artisan would be really nice, no harm in having more people able to craft the niche stuff.

Tutor should just be a flat out bonus depending on how many languages one has learned without needing a feat -> Someone who learned 8 languages probably knows how to teach them.

Mundance messenger would be a nice feature for higher ranks of animal companions, focused rangers / druids would get something nice with it, seeing how everyone remotely touching pvp carries 20 whisp bottles I don't see how it would impact any balancing negatively really.

Not a big fan of free languages or a flat out bonus to every gathering node tbh, I'd prefer those to remain class specific, personally I think a gift of gathering would be nice instead if someone wants to really focus on mining or so.

[MRFTW]

I'd love to see the exploration secret added as a general, so people without wisdom as their attribute can catch up a little more when it comes to sailing by giving up some combat power tbh.

I'd take it on every single character purely for the map reveal.

It's both mechanically good (+1AC, +1AC barkskin wand, +1AB, +1AB BW scroll, 30 HP, 10 lore), and gets many and unique RP features.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but +5s are available from dweomercrafting now, and Shadow Shield has always given +5 Natural AC so Barkskin is just QoL. Compared to the 3AC/1AB a bard dip offers, or 3AC/uncanny/evasion from rogue (both also allow stealth), LM dips aren't really that good, even if it didn't come with the 16 int and feat prereq.

What I wouldn't like to see as someone that's played 95% LM since it became a 5-level class is WMs running around with the QoL I gimped my build for. LM is to RP as WM is to PvP.

[Subtext]

It's both mechanically good (+1AC, +1AC barkskin wand, +1AB, +1AB BW scroll, 30 HP, 10 lore), and gets many and unique RP features.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but +5s are available from dweomercrafting now, and Shadow Shield has always given +5 Natural AC so Barkskin is just QoL. Compared to the 3AC/1AB a bard dip offers, or 3AC/uncanny/evasion from rogue (both also allow stealth), LM dips aren't really that good, even if it didn't come with the 16 int and feat prereq.

What I wouldn't like to see as someone that's played 95% LM since it became a 5-level class is WMs running around with the QoL I gimped my build for. LM is to RP as WM is to PvP.

You're not gonna believe this.

...

Loremaster WMs are very much a thing. It's not just 1 AB, 1 AC.
It means hitting 80 lore not being a biggie, so...mord or timestop scroll access. 5 AC from Barkskin is actually huge since shadow shield is high on the breach list.
Divine Favor scrolls add 3 AB, 3 damage instead of 1 each. Magic Vestment scrolls give 3 AC instead of 1, Bless Weapon scrolls give you +4 instead of +3. Your Mord scrolls have 22 CL...so you dispel as effective as a Wizard without abjuration foci.
All your scrolls run at 30 vs dispels of course. And you can scry too

[Security_Blanket]

Loremaster needs to be severely nerfed, look at all you get for investing 5 levels into the class, many already use 3 levels for a skill dip class so an extra two levels for a lot more tricks is no sacrifice at all. Why bother ever playing a spellcaster when you can just play a high BAB class and dip into Loremaster?

[MRFTW]

You're not gonna believe this.
...
Loremaster WMs are very much a thing.

That's a fair comment. 520HP and the low AC are more than enough to keep me away from LM/WM but I'm sure there are plenty brave enough

I do like the suggestion, I think more options for players is good. It would take away from the admittedly flexible identity of LM but I don't think it's the end of the world. I just don't think the 20% is people going for min-max (those players are already getting their Mord's via being a spellsword), I think they're in it for the QoL and probably scry.

At the very least that is the case for me, I pick LM so I don't have to do the scroll dance every 7 minutes and the 50% refund chance is very handy for keeping the mundane tax down.

[Edens_Fall]

I would vote we do to LM what we did to SD with HiPs. increase the level investment to achieve the same end. That way WM builds would need to give up more fighter levels in order to score that sweet lore/scry bonus. Thus denying them their current godhood status.

[Shadowy Reality]

Loremaster should not enable characters to dispel. I am alright with it giving easier access to Lore, the issue here is that now you have a mundane with access to Mords that also stands a good chance to dispel things. This is also the reason why Paladin is so oppressive right now, they dispel while having really high damage and AB.

It has been mentioned that LMs should not allow mundanes to dispel.
It has also been mentioned that WM probably shouldnt have its critical multiplier with only 5 levels.

These are two classes with very frontloaded bonus, and when mixed together will only compound these issues.

[Svrtr]

You're not gonna believe this.
...
Loremaster WMs are very much a thing.

That's a fair comment. 520HP and the low AC are more than enough to keep me away from LM/WM but I'm sure there are plenty brave enough

I do like the suggestion, I think more options for players is good. It would take away from the admittedly flexible identity of LM but I don't think it's the end of the world. I just don't think the 20% is people going for min-max (those players are already getting their Mord's via being a spellsword), I think they're in it for the QoL and probably scry.

At the very least that is the case for me, I pick LM so I don't have to do the scroll dance every 7 minutes and the 50% refund chance is very handy for keeping the mundane tax down.

For reference

WM/LM only gets 1 less AC than a tumble dip, but gets 1 more AB,. LIkewise

14 CON mod buffed to 26 for 240 health from CON
280 health from class levels
30 toughness

550 health, 580 if they choose to take the LM gift of health rather than one of the epic spell foci which they usually do. So the stats as per the build in the public build guide are

580 health
53 AC
50 AB

Just to provide some context

[Kythana]

With 5 LM, a mords scroll only has a 5% chance to dispel for 30 CL vs dispel buffs. While I'm not going to deny that it's useful, it also comes at the cost of action economy in the form of the very slow animation of scrolls.

I think there is a lot of hyperbole surrounding LM that's not actually present ingame.

Why bother ever playing a spellcaster when you can just play a high BAB class and dip into Loremaster?

Because casters still enable a lot that martials with LM dips can't. They naturally compliment each other. A martial, with LM or not, still wants to bring a caster with them everywhere. The more martials, the better the caster.

The ultimate thing I find funny about all this is that the best WM players I've seen always opt for cornerstealthing. LM is great for QoL, and absolutely is a competitive option, but it's hardly OP.

That being said, I do think that the secrets like -scry, -ward, ect shouldn't be available to everyone. Casters should keep that niche.

Additionally, add scroll + wand refunds as award options. It's just such good qol.

[Security_Blanket]

Because casters still enable a lot that martials with LM dips can't. They naturally compliment each other. A martial, with LM or not, still wants to bring a caster with them everywhere. The more martials, the better the caster.

So then casters are just support characters? DC spells are already a joke, a Loremaster can drop all the buffs a caster can, while they have to use materials to do it they also are not limited to any one spellcasting class. Then with summons getting a blanket nerf, why would you not just play a High BAB build with a Loremaster dip? Because you're a little bit stronger if you don't and have a caster in your party instead? Loremaster is a great representation of the power creep on Arelith, little by little dedicated spellcasters are being made redundant.

[perseid]

With 5 LM, a mords scroll only has a 5% chance to dispel for 30 CL vs dispel buffs. While I'm not going to deny that it's useful, it also comes at the cost of action economy in the form of the very slow animation of scrolls.

I think there is a lot of hyperbole surrounding LM that's not actually present ingame.

Why bother ever playing a spellcaster when you can just play a high BAB class and dip into Loremaster?

Because casters still enable a lot that martials with LM dips can't. They naturally compliment each other. A martial, with LM or not, still wants to bring a caster with them everywhere. The more martials, the better the caster.

The ultimate thing I find funny about all this is that the best WM players I've seen always opt for cornerstealthing. LM is great for QoL, and absolutely is a competitive option, but it's hardly OP.

That being said, I do think that the secrets like -scry, -ward, ect shouldn't be available to everyone. Casters should keep that niche.

Additionally, add scroll + wand refunds as award options. It's just such good qol.

I personally feel the same about the esf equivalent secrets but moreso just wanted to mention that prior to the addition of LM these things were actually somewhat noteworthy for characters to be able to do because not every build and their dog could learn to scry/ward.

[Shadowy Reality]

With 5 LM, a mords scroll only has a 5% chance to dispel for 30 CL vs dispel buffs. While I'm not going to deny that it's useful, it also comes at the cost of action economy in the form of the very slow animation of scrolls.

I do believe action economy is mostly similar. You want to breach anyway and throwing a Mords is usually better as you are breaching 6 rather than 2 from a Lesser Breach wands.

In addition to this you have a 5% to dispel any buff on the target vs CL 30, this is 10% vs CL 29, which a lot of caster27/x3 are. A lot of caster builds 27 builds are CL 29 (due to Arcane Defense Abjuration). For these you will lose one in ten buffs you have. If that hits any key buffs, such as haste, divine might, divine favor, maybe even your Planar Conduit, you are kidna screwed, and you have now a 50ab weaponmaster in your face as you try to get your buffs up again.

It is again that edge case where caster classes are getting screwed by mundanes at their own game.

[Kythana]

Because casters still enable a lot that martials with LM dips can't. They naturally compliment each other. A martial, with LM or not, still wants to bring a caster with them everywhere. The more martials, the better the caster.

So then casters are just support characters? DC spells are already a joke, a Loremaster can drop all the buffs a caster can, while they have to use materials to do it they also are not limited to any one spellcasting class. Then with summons getting a blanket nerf, why would you not just play a High BAB build with a Loremaster dip? Because you're a little bit stronger if you don't and have a caster in your party instead? Loremaster is a great representation of the power creep on Arelith, little by little dedicated spellcasters are being made redundant.

DC spells being bad is a completely different situation, and has nothing to do with LM.

Conduit is still good in epic content. Mummy Dust is still good in epic content. Both are still strong for pve. And no, a martial with a Loremaster dip does not get access to the same things.

Again, this is absolute doomer talk, that you seen more prevalent on Discord than actually ingame. Casters shine in group content, whether it is pve or pvp. They also are great in solo pve.

The only area that some casters are weak in is solo pvp. Which, I don't know what to tell you there. Find a martial buddy, we always want reliable caster friends, despite what people may doom on in forums/discord.

With 5 LM, a mords scroll only has a 5% chance to dispel for 30 CL vs dispel buffs. While I'm not going to deny that it's useful, it also comes at the cost of action economy in the form of the very slow animation of scrolls.

I do believe action economy is mostly similar. You want to breach anyway and throwing a Mords is usually better as you are breaching 6 rather than 2 from a Lesser Breach wands.

In addition to this you have a 5% to dispel any buff on the target vs CL 30, this is 10% vs CL 29, which a lot of caster27/x3 are. A lot of caster builds 27 builds are CL 29 (due to Arcane Defense Abjuration). For these you will lose one in ten buffs you have. If that hits any key buffs, such as haste, divine might, divine favor, maybe even your Planar Conduit, you are kidna screwed, and you have now a 50ab weaponmaster in your face as you try to get your buffs up again.

It is again that edge case where caster classes are getting screwed by mundanes at their own game.

If you want to breach as fast as possible on a mundane, you use a gem.

That being said, comparisons between LM scroll and cast:

• 5% chance per buff to dispel once per round
• 25% chance per buff to dispel twice per round

That is not similar at all, the latter(from the caster) is WAY stronger. This is why people complain(ed) about Abjurant Champion.

Caster builds additionally are not necessarily CL 29 versus dispels either. Wizard recently received a buff that gives them 30 CL versus dispel. Warlocks are 30 CL. Mostly anything else can do a 4 dirge dip if they really want for 30 CL versus dispels.

[Scurvy Cur]

Correct me if I'm wrong

You're wrong.

[Anomandaris]

Please don't nerf a dip class used across a broad range of builds to target one subset of build types. It's currently used for casters as well as mundanes. You would inadvertently nerf other builds that are not a problem.

That said I would like to see higher investment for mundanes specifically to have access to abilities that otherwise take 3 feats (1 of which is an epic feat). Granted the casters do get other benefits like inficast, and improved DC's, most are marginally useful. Having a bunch of mundanes with ward_teleport and scry is just cheesy and obviously a PvP optimization.

If you want to limit what WM's do with LM dips, work on the WM/Martial balance not the LM side.

[Rubricae]

i think loremaster is fine as is, maybe sprinkle some of the goodies it has around but nothing else taken from it

[Nazmina]

Someone had mentioned giving loremasters lesser versions of the ESF bonuses and giving full bonuses to those with caster levels or sf/gsf feats.

What about making the command feats -yoink/ward/scry once per reset rather than rest for LM's without CL/sf/gsf? (is that possible?)

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I personally don't think loremasters break weapons master, and a divine dip is still inherently more powerful because damage output is the name of the game. But it's very close, and the cost of the loremaster dip (+2/3 int, usually 2) versus the cost of a divine dip (a whole other stat that you need a minimum of 8 more base in to be worth it) is much easier to swallow, since you really need a lot of 4 stat gear to make the divine dip work.

Loremaster also makes it easier to level alone, whereas the divine dip is going to have rough patches along the way.

I personally think it should be 18 int and 12 wisdom, but I really liked loremaster much better when it was a 10 level class that had no real power implications at all, since like the voice in my head says in yellow from time to time, not every character needs to be a superhero. But honestly, if you just yoinked spell craft from their skillset and made people cross class it for the wm builds you would at least create a choice for the power munchers. The Qolers are still going to grab loremaster though more than likely.

[Wrips]

They are fine. There are other goodies rogue dip version can get over loremaster on a weaponmaster, like full tumble AC and stealth and you are still getting using umd books too.

[AstralUniverse]

Balance aside, getting a free fluent language, that doesnt count to your language cap, every loremaster level, is, has always been, and will continue to be absolutely ridiculously too good.

[magistrasa]

Loremaster hatewank has drawn me out from the shadows like the ghost of discourse past.

Let's not pretend those "roleplay goodies" are something easily dismissed. We are playing on a roleplay server. Roleplay goodies are going to be inherently enticing to a vast portion of the player base. Even discounting the mechanical benefits that come with Loremaster, for five levels you get four additional languages - where one can be a secret language which can't ordinarily be learned - and two abilities that you ordinarily can't achieve without an Epic Spell Focus. I'm willing to bet anything that the two most popular options for the ESF cookies are scry and project image.

Language proficiency is an incredibly underrated tool at the Loremaster's disposal, because it literally grants you the ability to communicate with a broader variety of characters and latch onto plot hooks that you might have otherwise been ignorant to. In other words, by taking this class, you are now able to roleplay with more people. Once again, this is a roleplay server. A core feature of the class simply makes you a more potent roleplayer. That doesn't seem a little bit insane to you?

Similarly, it's no coincidence that almost every Loremaster is actually a spymaster. [...] Knowledge is the currency of power when it comes to roleplay. The more you know, the more influence you have, the more plots and storylines you are able to involve yourself in, the more roleplay you are able to insert yourself into. Even setting aside the fact that [scrying] lets you learn people's secrets and disguises, even if on accident, just the sheer ability to think to yourself, "I want to find this person so I can talk to them about my feelings," and then immediately be able to locate them and act on that impulse is giving you more roleplay opportunities. [...] An ability that potent should come with some cost. Three feats invested into the worst spell school in the game is a fine price to pay for the power it gives you in return. But five levels in a class that already gives you so much else as part of the kit is not remotely comparable.

I have yet to be made to understand what Loremaster's "niche" is even supposed to be. It's an entirely modular class where the only unifying factor is that it gives you a ton of languages, and lets you use wands & scrolls better than anyone else. EVERYTHING about the class is designed around a "choose your own adventure" style, which means it has no real theme or identity by intentional design. You could easily turn the Loremaster class into a couple feats, because everything else about it is already just copying the feats of every other class for significantly less investment. Is that really a niche? Or is that just the appropriation of every other niche for a fraction of their comparative investment?

If loremaster gets gutted then I unironically might consider playing Arelith again. Saying this has probably all but guaranteed the class's unedited immortality.

[Security_Blanket]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Loremasters are to Arelith what Planeswalkers are to Magic the Gathering, they completely changed the game and not for the best. I think the best idea so far is to draw it out, make go up to level 10 instead of level 5 and spread out those cookies, what you get for a 5 level investment is just too much. Is 5 levels of Invisible Blade that good? How about 5 levels of Cavalier, does that compare?

I don't understand how anyone could argue against Loremaster getting a nerf, but then I remember how popular the class is, and the people that don't want change are often the people benefitting from it.

[Edens_Fall]

I'll never NOT enjoy the sight of a WM dispelling my summons only to whip out a gate scroll, which was then followed by an in your face beat down as I try to recast.

[Coolguy McMagic]

I think the only LM nerf that's warranted would be to make some of the Greater Secrets require Caster Levels in order to preserve caster identity.

The free languages could also be reduced to a single otherwise unlearnable language and the other 4 added as an increase in language cap (and learning speed) instead. Then at least people need to put in effort to learn.

Though I do actually think language fluency is overrated. Who actually denies you RP opportunities if you don't speak the proper language? Almost everyone will be all too happy to speak in common with you. The one language you need to know if you don't want to die in certain places is Undercommon and that's fairly easy to pick up. Anyone worth spying on will do their secret meeting behind closed doors in a scry-warded location anyway. Feels like 90% of the time when people speak in a language they didn't get through their race/background, it's for the sole purpose of bragging.

The refund chance is pure QoL, nothing wrong with that. If the CL and Lore increase is gutted the class would become fairly weak. Remember that it's actually the much-maligned caster classes that benefit the most from the Mords CL increase.