Save the Nave (y)

An area to facilitate free-form feedback on systems (in-game or out) related to Arelith.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs, Contributors

Babylon System is the Vampire
Posts: 990
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:14 am

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire » Thu May 16, 2024 11:46 am

FallenDabus wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 9:55 am

Flagships are great, but each navy should also have access to a regular crew 4 ship. It is not strictly necessary if there are more charters, but it would be a nice rp-flavor touch because then it still is a named "navy ship".

Doood...You aren't the first person to come in here ignoring the point of the thread and suggesting this despite it being what the op is about, but Et Tu?

I should just start writing my threads with the title of the topic and the post just saying "Ready set fight!".

Anyhow, as usual I agree with most of what you wrote, and as usual there are a few parts I think you need to be reined back in. That being said, that's a lot of building to ever see a third of it done. It would sure be great if you knew someone familiar with that sort of thing and has actually worked on making new ships for arelith before. Maybe you could get them to apply to help out. If you knew someone like that, that is. 8-)


Rowlind Salem
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:31 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Rowlind Salem » Thu May 16, 2024 11:49 am

TheDoctor wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:43 am
Rowlind Salem wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:44 am

I was in an actual Navy for 15 years, the Captain always has an outsized level of responsibility. It's the nature of the job, one person has to be in charge and set the tone. Which I why I advocate for removal of private ownership.

Yeah? So was I. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and yer not even describing the apple right, shippy. In the USN the Old Man (Thas sailor talk for captain, shipmates) has PLENTY of help with the responsibility of running the ship. They literally have whats called a crew. Oh and lets not forget the XO that gets to help out the captain at all times. Oh and lets not forget the MOST IMPORTANT PART! Its the Chiefs who really run things and keep things smooth.

Dunno what Navy you was in but the two things are not similar at all. There is zero comparison here.

chiefs are generally lazy entitled fat guys with big mouths and over inflated sense of accomplishment

the captain is the one who takes the fall when things go wrong, always. everything is on them, they have sole responsibility, no excuses.

I think I can tell which one of us had a commission and which didn't.

Rowlind Salem (rolled)
Eddie Salem (rolled)
Houndaer Rylyn'yrvs [Drow House Really Nervous] (rolled)
Alcibiades (active-ish)


TheDoctor
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:13 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by TheDoctor » Thu May 16, 2024 12:01 pm

Rowlind Salem wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:49 am
TheDoctor wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:43 am
Rowlind Salem wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:44 am

I was in an actual Navy for 15 years, the Captain always has an outsized level of responsibility. It's the nature of the job, one person has to be in charge and set the tone. Which I why I advocate for removal of private ownership.

Yeah? So was I. You are trying to compare apples and oranges and yer not even describing the apple right, shippy. In the USN the Old Man (Thas sailor talk for captain, shipmates) has PLENTY of help with the responsibility of running the ship. They literally have whats called a crew. Oh and lets not forget the XO that gets to help out the captain at all times. Oh and lets not forget the MOST IMPORTANT PART! Its the Chiefs who really run things and keep things smooth.

Dunno what Navy you was in but the two things are not similar at all. There is zero comparison here.

chiefs are generally lazy entitled fat guys with big mouths and over inflated sense of accomplishment

the captain is the one who takes the fall when things go wrong, always. everything is on them, they have sole responsibility, no excuses.

I think I can tell which one of us had a commission and which didn't.

AHAHAHAHA.. Yeah and it wasnt you! ESPECIALLY the way you talk about CPO's. Curious though as to why you went RET at 15 and not 20 for the full monty though.


User avatar
FallenDabus
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:15 pm
Location: EU

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by FallenDabus » Thu May 16, 2024 1:15 pm

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 11:46 am
FallenDabus wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 9:55 am

Flagships are great, but each navy should also have access to a regular crew 4 ship. It is not strictly necessary if there are more charters, but it would be a nice rp-flavor touch because then it still is a named "navy ship".

Doood...You aren't the first person to come in here ignoring the point of the thread and suggesting this despite it being what the op is about, but Et Tu?

I should just start writing my threads with the title of the topic and the post just saying "Ready set fight!".

Anyhow, as usual I agree with most of what you wrote, and as usual there are a few parts I think you need to be reined back in. That being said, that's a lot of building to ever see a third of it done. It would sure be great if you knew someone familiar with that sort of thing and has actually worked on making new ships for arelith before. Maybe you could get them to apply to help out. If you knew someone like that, that is. 8-)

;) Thankfully, there is no need unique ship models for each ship. So I am hardly needed on that front.

In terms of area design, there are already very pretty ship models available. The same system as the instancing for the First and Second Sister could be used. Their exterior and interior areas are just an instanced copy of one another. Apply it to the crew 2, crew 3 and crew 4 ships. Including the smaller settlement navy ships you suggested, which are a great idea.

In terms of ship stats, existing ship stats could easily be used. Sencliff Liberator for the Brig, Iron Couriers for the Galleys, and Iron Scout for the what ever crew-2 ships are called. Generally more stat consistency for ships of the same type is better imo anyway. If ship stats were really a problem for a dev, I'd be happy to share the ship-combat simulator I developed for ActionReplay. Its what a lot of the sailing mechanics design was originally based on. You can emulate 1v1 or 1v2 ship combat with detailed results.

Setting up the quarter signs for charters and owned ships might be a bit of work (no idea how much given you likely need to add some database entries for them), but I cant imagine it would be a serious hurdle.

Natasha Dryby ~ Songstress of the Sea!
Shaelin Durothil ~ Divine Seeker of Sehanine (retired)
Yowyn ~ Svirfneblin Druidess (retired)

User avatar
Cthuletta
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:58 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Cthuletta » Thu May 16, 2024 1:23 pm

I ran the Cordorian Navy for a good chunk of time, so I did want to put my personal experience regarding 'being inclusive' in the chatter here as an example of why I think the way I do about it.

Being inclusive doesn't always help. I would set up a table with a sign saying 'JOIN THE NAVY', I would post advertisements and updates on what the Navy was doing on the boards, I would take just about anyone and everyone who showed interest with the caveat they show up for a 'trial run' before they got their free sailing kit, the guard was always involved/invited, AND I would take the ship out every other day.
At times, this worked fine and the Navy really flourished. Other times however, we couldn't even scape together 5 people for the 6-requirement ship, with maybe only two of them having the actual skill investment.
The burn-out was absolutely intense. My character hired a couple others to also host sails in timezones I couldn't really swing myself and it rarely worked out for them or they moved on to something else for their own valid reasons.
I've seen this occur with two other Navies I was active in, the Andunorian Navy and the Merchant Navy. With both of them the Andunorian Admiral and Merchant Captain were incredibly inclusive but also had their rough stints where they could barely scrape a crew together for weeks at a time despite TONS of advertising and active recruitment efforts.

All of this is to give context to what I think the main 'issue' is. You can be inclusive, active, do everything 'right' and still have those patches of inactivity from the crew, because like everything else on Arelith (or really games as a whole), interest ebbs and flows. You see it all the time with races, trades and classes. There will be a BOOM of one specific thing that you just see everywhere for a while, then suddenly they're all gone. To either try something new, get involved in something different, variety is the spice of life. I'd go so far as to say it's unavoidable and everyone who runs a crew/owns a ship will face this problem at some point or another and it's not always a reflection on how inclusive you are or how compelling your story is. It's just a fact of life given we're all here playing a video game with options. We love options!

That said, having lower-requirement ships for lease within the same Navy Umbrella for Settlements would be a great way to weather these inactivity periods. Since in my opinion they WILL happen, this is a great option to keep those still interested going without stressing out whoever is running the Navy when it comes to numbers. I also really love the idea of a 'Crew House', perhaps putting the 'smaller' Navy ships there as temporary leases for whenever the crew wants to go out, Captain or not. I agree running it like a guard with a 'barracks' style situation where there's not as much emphasis on the time you HAVE to go out would be healthier for everybody, from those running the faction to those in the late-timezone play times who really wanna sail but struggle to get out on the water. Win-win-win across the board!

Juniper Oakley - A Little Bitey

Ny'aza 'Peggy' Philor'tyl - Travelling
Tiffa Took Hss'tafi - Happy in Sigil


Xarge VI
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:05 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Xarge VI » Thu May 16, 2024 1:34 pm

I don't think we should take too much comparison from real life shipping to in game shipping or measure who has the longest shipping career lol. (It's me obviously I've been in the career for 2 years.)

in real life it's generally bad for the crew if the master is also the owner of the ship but in game it's very different, because in game we want those conflicting interests for roleplay.

While I love all the interesting and literally game changing new things in the ship system. I think it has also become too mechanic oriented.

My main disappointment is that it's quite rare (rare but not non-existing) to go on a sea voyage in game where people roleplay sailing the ship instead of farming for runics and parrots. I think that is something the ship owner can control.

I want my sea themed character to join a ship crew faction in game for sea themed roleplay, I care very little about the runics and the parrots and the addys or even who wins which javelin exchange.


User avatar
Edens_Fall
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 1114
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:45 am
Location: North America

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Edens_Fall » Thu May 16, 2024 2:09 pm

I don't really have a horse in this race anymore, generally avoid sailing mostly these days. I did give it a try however on three separate (none sailing build) PCs with the intent to server as muscle for boarding or landings. Why not use a sailing build you ask? because I don't really like them and just wanted to enjoy what little playtime I get on a build I like to play. Eitherway, across all those PCs I was pretty much told "no thanks" for anything outside the coastal waters due to my lack of sailing skill points, which was disappointing. Being required to invest in sailing as part of a larger crew in order to access the rare and most exclusive loot in the server just really turned me off after those attempts. Now I just stick to land with a rare pleasure cruise to Skal now and then when invited.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, rather then adding more and more ships, why don't we adjust what we have to allow more people to be included? Why incentivize ship captains into policing crew stat sheets to maximize loot payout when its better to have fun while out and about. Lets add land based dungeons with exclusive loot to releave the stress on ship owners to always maximize the system to increase drop rates. Lower sail skill requirements so everyone doesn't have to carry two sets of gear. Remove PCs with no skills in sailing from the sailing systems equation so captains are not required to bar them from joining. All these are ideas of course, and not knowing the systems, I have no idea if they are even doable honestly. They are after all, simply my own thoughts on the matter, for whatever its worth.


-XXX-
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 16, 2024 3:03 pm

Streamlining ship class stats is something that I'd very much like to see.
I get that originally there wasn't supposed to be many ships and the team decided to give every single one of them some unique feel, but the result is that some ships are just better, while others are more awkward.

I'm also not a big fan of cogs for various reasons - would like to see ship classes reduced to galley (3) brig (4) galleon (5)

  • all long term lease ships should probably be galleys, as maintaining a larger crew seems to be too much work
  • galleons could be rentals with settlement controlled access, effectively replacing flagships

Something like:

Sencliff:
Rental Galleon [5] (Dread Pirate Ink)
Rental Brig [4] (Swashbuckler ink)
Long Lease Galley [3] (Dread Pirate Ink)
Rental Galley [3] (Greenhorn Ink)

Crow’s Nest:
Rental Brig [4] (non-Ink/Monster/Outcast)
Long Lease Galley [3] (non-Ink/Monster/Outcast)
Rental Galley [3] (non-Ink/Monster/Outcast)

Brogendenstein:
Rental Galleon [5] (settlement controlled access)

Cordor:
Rental Galleon [5] (settlement controlled access)
Rental Brig [4] (citizenship)
Long Lease Galley [3] (citizenship)
Rental Galley [3] (non-Ink/Monster/Outcast)

Guldorand:
Rental Galleon [5] (settlement controlled access)
Rental Brig [4] (citizenship)
Long Lease Galley [3] (citizenship)
Rental Galley [3] (non-Ink/Monster/Outcast)

Andunor:
Rental Galleon [5] (Brokerage)
Rental Brig [4] (Monster/Outcast)
Long Lease Galley [3] (Monster/Outcast)
Rental Galley [3] (Monster/Outcast)


98lbs of sad carryweight
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:08 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by 98lbs of sad carryweight » Thu May 16, 2024 3:04 pm

Just work together.
Everyone wants their own boat, not shared at all, because I dont know, its probably the only time you have to work together in a resource pool and thats scary.

Just work together. Either there is somehow a lack of viable sailors (meaning 90+) or they are all so fractured you cannot possibly work together.
Neither is really solved with "more ships"

Good luck!


-XXX-
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by -XXX- » Thu May 16, 2024 3:15 pm

98lbs of sad carryweight wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:04 pm

Neither is really solved with "more ships"

The list I made contains less ships than we have right now!
It merely assumes more rentals and less long term lease ships.

And yes, the sailor pool is fractured to a degree considering various settlement affiliations, pirates and monsters. This gets even more fractured once we acknowledge the fact that every long term ship lease holder has a very strong incentive to insist on sailing their own ship exclusively.

Last edited by -XXX- on Thu May 16, 2024 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

98lbs of sad carryweight
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:08 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by 98lbs of sad carryweight » Thu May 16, 2024 3:21 pm

-XXX- wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:15 pm
98lbs of sad carryweight wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:04 pm

Neither is really solved with "more ships"

The list I made contains less ships than we have right now!
It merely assumes more rentals and less long term lease ships.

It wasn't a repsonse specifically to you, but the overall thread. Reshuffling may work.

Although due to how the sail system works, there is not /much/ of a point for using a 5 man ship if a 3 man ship gets 100+ sail.
Specifically for pve this is amplified.


User avatar
DM MoonMoon
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:37 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by DM MoonMoon » Thu May 16, 2024 3:24 pm

I cannot speak for the big bad amazing ship coders, and only on what I know as a minor code contributor and DM.

More ships would not be viable. There would not be enough room for them all to be out at the sea, each time we consider adding one there is a lot of balancing issues also to consider.
We cant just give surface more ships, as then UD would need more, but what about Sencliff whos side might they be on at any time?

More ships is not the answer.

I also think Settlement owners should hold responsibility over the ship (as a quarter), its something that could be considered in their elections!
Mismanagement of the available resources? Guards, Navy, Shops? Its up to the Settlement Leader to govern this, its not an easy job but its part of the RP. Some might even use the power incorrectly on purpose! Getting into power as a bad guy can be great!

Now for other ships that are not settlement, we do keep an eye on these. Owners must use them a reasonable amount, or will be asked to let it up for bid.
If you think that x ship is not being used and left around, tell us! We can check and if needed, get it back into the bidding pool.

Currently, there is not an issue mechanically with the ship system that is stopping people using them, (could always be improved, but thats coding in general!) but there is an issue with some people not wishing to share toys.

-Doggo

DM Wraith: @DM MoonMoon Nice one, Idk howl you do it, it does seem a bit furfetched

Kythana
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2021 1:21 am

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by Kythana » Thu May 16, 2024 4:17 pm

DM MoonMoon wrote:
Thu May 16, 2024 3:24 pm

Currently, there is not an issue mechanically with the ship system that is stopping people using them, (could always be improved, but thats coding in general!) but there is an issue with some people not wishing to share toys.

Being inclusive doesn't always help. I would set up a table with a sign saying 'JOIN THE NAVY', I would post advertisements and updates on what the Navy was doing on the boards, I would take just about anyone and everyone who showed interest with the caveat they show up for a 'trial run' before they got their free sailing kit, the guard was always involved/invited, AND I would take the ship out every other day.
At times, this worked fine and the Navy really flourished. Other times however, we couldn't even scape together 5 people for the 6-requirement ship, with maybe only two of them having the actual skill investment.

Back in the day the Merchant Navy faction that ran the Guldorand Flagship had probably 20+ sail builds to pull from across the Time Zone spectrum. It was a highly inclusive faction that even sailed with other navies and took near all walks of life. Despite this, getting just 6 people with a good enough sail score to do end game content and have a fighting chance against adversaries was a headache, especially with how swiftly ships tend to decay. (You need a minimum sail score of 80 on a ship, IMO to even have a fighting chance at most interesting/engaging content. You can have 20 people on board that ship, but if the sail score isn't 80 you're getting easily sunk by PvE w/o having to invest TONS of repair resources. This doesn't even touch the PvP aspect).

This aside, as the current owner of the Sea Leopard (4 man brigantine, probably only one of the few true privateer ships), I'll admit that recruiting and running a crew is a ton of work and at times really frustrating. I have 3 repeating scheduled sails in the week, I've advertised a ton (even made signs all around the island to advertise who the other ships and crews are, which quickly got outdated), and I still struggle for people to show up for sails, despite having a huge pool of people who are aware and part of the faction in one way or another.

I'm going to say it's pretty telling when you have multiple players in this thread, all with extensive experience running very inclusive crews that are still having issues filling, thus preventing use.

The mechanical issue absolutely comes from the absurd requirement in crew size, in addition to needing mostly everyone to have a sail viable build, if they want to consistently tackle endgame and pvp content(And most players are going to want to.)

I also don't think adding more ships is the solution. It's just a fundamental flaw in the sailing system that has never been addressed.


User avatar
DM Galahad
Dungeon Master
Dungeon Master
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2023 6:11 pm

Re: Save the Nave (y)

Post by DM Galahad » Thu May 16, 2024 4:46 pm

I was disappointed reading this. This is not the proper way to give feedback, and while some valid points about the sailing mechanics have been raised, the lack of abstraction and focus on specific players or factions has in some ways invalidated much of it. When giving feedback, we focus on systems and not individual players or factions regardless of intention.

The potential issues identified and discussed here are not solely attributable to one crew, or one faction - and it is wrong to open the post in this way.

Despite this, I will not delete the thread outright. I will be locking this thread, and deleting/editing the offending posts. Offending post authors can expect a chat with a DM.


Locked