Subtext wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 11:27 amIrongron wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2024 5:13 amMy personal intention is/was for each summon tier to scale with caster levels, so (for example) Summon VII would remain viable into epics, and even Summon I-IV would have some utility (and as such not be wasted spells in ranger spellbook). I would also like a different creature in the mix (too many elementals!).
I'm informed one of our admins has taken on a project following a similar philosophy. Once this is completed, and we have an idea of the new summon utility we'll look at boosts to sequencers (my preference here would be rhat all apply mass effects (to all the users summons, not just one (time saving), and that all also apply haste. Though again, we'll see where the update leaves thrm first.
As it stands right now, not even Summon IX or Greater Planar Binding are viable in epics unless you can use them as a meatshield for a damage dealer. And those DO scale with caster level already. Elemental Swarm works somewhat better due to essentially providing twelve attacks per round and dealing significant damage that way. And the gap between the swarm summons and Summon IX summons is low enough to not particularly be an issue.
Furthermore, different build concepts currently benefit very differently from summons as I've outlined earlier. If you can deal significant damage on your own -consistently-, summons still provide a significant boon. it allows playstyles that aren't otherwise possible - like skimping on your AC and focusing everything on damage in early levels to plainly breeze through writs.
Classes that actively have to rely on summons for consistent damage have a problem! This is primarily a sorcerer and wizard issue - warlocks have their blast as means of dealing consistent damage. Cleric, Favored Soul, Shaman? All of them can work very well in melee while still having access to the entire summon suite including conduit - and a whole range of buff spells on top of it! In between Bless, Prayer, War Cry, Battletide, Aura of Vitality that's up to 6 AB more than your comparable arcane caster.
In essence it is a balancing issue between classes and not so much a summon issue.
If you treat summons the same across the board, I think it would also require looking at the classes that are currently falling far behind as a consequence. Alternatively you provide those classes with the means to actually go further with their summons and make them proper summoning classes. Sequencers and Epic Level Scaling aren't going to do that.
The suggestion to rely on the casting stat is in my opinion a good start.
I still believe that a "quick fix" (I have no idea how quick something like that would actually be) would be allowing mass zoo spells and mass haste to apply to your own summons gain. At least while you work out a better system.
I generally like sequencers and I think it's great not to be compelled to spend my entire spellbook on summon buffs. But mass spells with an overall utility? Come on. It was one way to achieve some level of parity in that regard between divine and arcane casters.
This is an important point. It's not about just "summons" it's about the classes/builds. And it's about their relative balance against other classes/builds (within reason).
The original change that prevented us from casting spells on our summons felt tedious and unnecessary. Sequencers are neat concepts but should have always been an option, not a requirement. If the issue was spell resistance (preventing removal through WoF), just stop the use of spell resistance on summons.
That said, I may have a rare opinion that it's totally acceptable for an epic caster to summon something (for a short duration) that rivals an epic martial's combat power. That seems to be the clear the point and designed power threshold of said level 9 or epic spell after all; people may disagree. Dropping a dragon, or extraplanar deva/balor/cornugon should be be something that provides enough pressure that it needs to be dealt with and present some challenge to do so (without SR, that's literally just using one scroll that also may blind the caster too, hardly a big lift). Anything less and it's useless in late gave PvE or PvP. If not just remove the spells entirely, as it's immersion breaking to summon a dragon that gets ripped apart like paper by mid tier mobs. I do see more of a problem with long duration summons that have this much power and effectively replace another PC, but short duration (turns or rounds/level) is fine. Also, why do we care if people want to afk grind PvE content with summons? That doesn't really affect anyone, maybe it makes it easier for them to grind runics, but so what? This playstyle is boring to me but if people enjoy it good for them.
Either way, martials are still so overpowered compared to casters its comical. And I'm not sure how this dynamic persists with as much focus on balance as there is on the server.
TLDR from many posts before:
- Martials get high, APR non interruptible attacks, that never run out vs. casters having 2 actions per round which are entirely interruptible and rely on fixed number of spell slots
- Martials have high damage output allowing one-round vs. damage spells that will struggle to finish an opponent, and effects that are mostly ignored with saves and immunities
- Martials get access to high magic on the chassis of a mundane killing machine through UMD, Lore or just insane items in the loot matrix (Rod/potion antimagic, greater gem of nullification etc). Access to almost all buffs that a caster would otherwise cast on you means casters are effectively entirely replaceable by some coin.
- Insane power creep of items to mean that everyone has a +5 weapon as a standard, piercing all DR spells
- Spellsword is an abomination and should not have access to mords. It can do just fine with breaches.
If you really dislike summons and for some reason don't want them to be as useful, that's fine. IMO the only issue was Spell resistant, persistent summons. Either way please fix the terrible balance state this and other changes have left casters in.