PG-13 and what it actually means based on definition

[Zaravella]

Different countries have varying definition of what PG13 entails, if you really read it - sometimes in Europe it is more permissible IMO, but not in the United States. I think the PG13 in the US is like the PG rating everywhere else in the world.

In any case... to me since we do have international players, I found something helpful somewhere while reading the Arelith wiki.. I forgot who wrote it really, but I have used it as a guide since I started playing here more than a year ago:

Imagine the players of the characters around yours, are all 13 years old... what do you think is appropriate?

I dont think I am quoting it exactly but that is what it basically said. It has been my guide.

[DM Axis]

I've had concerns lately with how the perceptions of Arelith have come to inhibit mature or interesting roleplay. I've observed players and Dungeon Masters leaning towards the more "PG' side of things, which does not fit the Dungeons and Dragons setting as an ethos.

I would like a mature discussion on this, because in a setting with drow, murder, misandry, in-built racism, undead corpses, monster cannibalism, depicted torture racks, and severed heads, it's pretty obvious that Arelith leans more towards the more permissible side of PG-13 then the lesser permissible PG side. (And this is by no means an exhaustive list.)

If arelith does not lean towards the more permissble side of PG-13, I would like to see the following removed:

-Slavery

-Severed heads

- Reference to drinking, drugs, poisons, or seedy Baator taverns that allow you to go spend time with the Hell-wenches upstairs.

- Any reference to torture or body mutilation

-The entire monster list of races as player characters

...

Feedback is appreciated.

Considering the nature of the internet it is obviously very possible for the younger users to stray into areas that are far less savory than others. We do take the PG - 13 rules beyond just no erotic play. Some examples (by no means limited to):

• Excessive swearing.
  Disturbing imagery and interactions that are forced upon another (think torture).
  Graphic nudity.
  Graphic violence (or other type of violence, see cannibalism, extreme slavery, etc).

This covers a very general expectation, which regions and faith might also consider additional actions are more explicit or vulgar.

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

Actions that have likely been suggested in the past and should continue to be taken:

• When possible questionable content or interactions that are not featured above or go into explicit detail with intimate encounters, it is best to try and speak OOC about these things in advance and work the feedback into the narrative. The tells system for small clarification is a great way to do this.

  "Are you okay with this character getting enslaved?"

  Please report, I never can overstate this. If you see something iffy/icky, please report it to the Active DM Team. That way the entire DM Team can see the request received and whoever is first available to do so will see it processed. There will be notification sent when the case is taken up and investigated.
  If you are ever unsure about any of the rules or wonder whether the content that the narrative might include could be borderline ask the DM Team proactively rather than reactively.

Thank you.

[CptJonas]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

[DM Axis]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

That's less about the monster race being played, and more about the graphic violence/body disfigurement/related material.

[CptJonas]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

That's less about the monster race being played, and more about the graphic violence/body disfigurement/related material.

Well...yeah...but its still part of "monster race being played" bcs its part of RP of those races...They are evil....and they eat humans....so....

They are literaly monsters and they should act like one...

[Nitro]

If people feel like they can't play monster races without skirting the lines of the rules, perhaps those people should just stay away from the monster races until they've reconsidered what they consider integral to the RP of that race. Just because your character is a cannibal it doesn't mean you have to graphically emote about how they're dismembering and eating people to include it in your RP.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

PG, Sounds like a line from the big friendly giant.

[CptJonas]

If people feel like they can't play monster races without skirting the lines of the rules, perhaps those people should just stay away from the monster races until they've reconsidered what they consider integral to the RP of that race. Just because your character is a cannibal it doesn't mean you have to graphically emote about how they're dismembering and eating people to include it in your RP.

Well...I am just asking whats ok, and whats not...I cant say it myself for sure....
I was reading Warhammer and WH 40k since I was 10 maybe....So.....Everyone have diferent mesures....Thats why I am asking.....

[DM Axis]

At this current time there is no plans to remove the monster races.
Please be courteous to others with your roleplay, and when in doubt ask either fellow players or the DMs before taking on something that might be vulgar in some way.

Please report any behavior that concerns the PG 13 rule to the Active DM Team.

That is all.

[Subutai]

I was reading

I think this is the key problem with "PG-13". This isn't a movie. It's not a TV show. If I emote something, no one is watching it. They're reading it, and text can allow for a lot more vivid descriptions of things without being nearly as disturbing or upsetting as visual media. Inconveniently, there's no group going around labeling books as "PG-13", so it's harder to define what's okay and what's not okay for 13 year olds to read in a literary medium.

Regardless of convenience, I don't think it's necessarily fair to equate what's acceptable to read with what's acceptable to view, whatever one may think about what should be acceptable or unacceptable to view.

[Opustus]

A lot of the bad sides of swearing you listed sound appealing to me, like embarrassing oneself, seeming stupid or "trying too hard". They sound like exquisite literary devices.

They are exquisite literary devices, provided the intention is to make a character that is trying too hard or embarrassing themselves within the bounds of the fiction.

But lets be perfectly fair here, not many professional writers have control over that sort of nuance. An embarrassing and cringe-inducing character is different from an embarrassing and cringe-inducing writer. It is all about the level of (self)awareness the writer possesses.

The internet isn't exactly known for its abundance of that.

I think the internet is full of brilliant writers capable of separating self from character. The main argument for me, (and for why swearing should be allowed vs. concerns that many would do it tastelessly, in poor form, making themselves look idiotic) is that the general standards for RP should be established in as broad definition as possible in which varying tastes of RP could all fit. I am sure that Arelith is already full of competing visions of how certain races and classes should be played, for example, and I'm sure this makes some players view others as idiots or tasteless, and that at times DMs must intervene and say "wow dude, that's not cool according to Ed Greenwood", but most of the times it caters to a diversity of people having fun expressing themselves quite freely. Allowing characters to say more swear words at risk of some players seeming unintelligent to other players is, in my view, a very small issue or even a nonissue, because people have such different views of what constitutes a good character or good RP. Or what makes another person seem stupid/immature/other negative characteristic, although to me it's unclear if that should even be a real concern.

The aforementioned is my take on the issue, but of course many other arguments relate to the general question of whether more swearing should be allowed. One could be e.g. "is hearing the C word a lot of times too insensitive towards 13-year-olds", but this argument can be addressed separately.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I think the internet is full of brilliant writers capable of separating self from character.

The latter half of this sentence is not even close to what I am getting at. You can be a terrible writer who uses tired old cliches and tropes without the faintest little bit of examination, understanding or analysis of them - And still keep the self totally separate from the character.

I am not talking about the separation of character and self - I assume that all sane people do that anyway.

The main argument for me, (and for why swearing should be allowed vs. concerns that many would do it tastelessly, in poor form, making themselves look idiotic)[...]

I have already said I would support making it possible to use certain more "choice" language in game without getting slapped down for it.

I am simply saying "be tasteful". Or... "The community needs to come to understand nuance and subtlety".

[...]is that the general standards for RP should be established in as broad definition as possible in which varying tastes of RP could all fit. I am sure that Arelith is already full of competing visions of how certain races and classes should be played, for example, and I'm sure this makes some players view others as idiots or tasteless, and that at times DMs must intervene and say "wow dude, that's not cool according to Ed Greenwood", but most of the times it caters to a diversity of people having fun expressing themselves quite freely. Allowing characters to say more swear words at risk of some players seeming unintelligent to other players is, in my view, a very small issue or even a nonissue, because people have such different views of what constitutes a good character or good RP.

What? Lore has nothing to do with this. I really don't follow your line of thought here.

Look... I am not arguing for greater censorship of language. In fact, I am arguing for precisely the opposite of that... And also finding ways of encouraging good quality use of bad language, so that we're not suddenly swamped by a tidal-wave of people yelling "fu-" every third sentence because they can.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what I am saying, and I can't quite fathom how.

[Subutai]

To the point of swearing making a character who is "supposed" to be tough and scary look idiotic, I think that's all in the writing anyway, swearing or not. A player's vision of their character isn't automatically how others perceive those characters. If I make a bard with the intent and belief that all the women love him, but the way I roleplay him makes him seem creepy and gross, people are going to respond to him as if he's creepy and gross, my intention be damned.

The same is true of a character who I intended to be tough and scary. If I use swearwords as a shortcut to make him edgy and tough, and other characters think he just sounds like an idiot, so what? It's not other player's responsibility to find out my intent and have their characters react to that, regardless of how my character actually acts. If an "intimidating" character comes across as idiotic, then all you have is a character who thinks he's intimidating, but everyone else finds idiotic. That's fine. It's fun, even.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I love how America and their fear of words. I always imagion a three year old holding his hands before his mouth in shock wearing clothing with usa flag print at such topics.

Yeah, I think we should be more free on " bad " words, Cause in the end of the day, Their just words and the meaning behind it stays,
Even when you say " Feck" " Heck" or " Buttons and barndoors".

[Opustus]

Previous post

Self/character: this referred to your mention about self-aware writers being a rarity. My point was that imo they aren't. It was badly worded by me, sorry about that.

I used the example of people thinking their way of RP is better than the others' as a way of setting down terms for what is good and what is bad RP/what is tasteless and what is tasteful etc. This was meant to be contrasted with your idea of there being a potential for players who would be using swear words tastelessly, and that it's a similar instance of people trying to establish standards for RP through what they think is good or bad, while in truth the standards vary according to player or player groups.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to place you on one side of an argument of more swearing vs. less swearing, but it accidentally came off that way. But I assumed you were concerned about people using filthy language in a way that would make them seem immature/stupid/whatever, and I assumed that you saw this as a con of allowing for a wider use of swearing, because you would think that a profusion of cursing would reduce the quality of RP, however that is defined, as opposed to the desired effect of improving it.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I love how America and their fear of words. I always imagion a three year old holding his hands before his mouth in shock wearing clothing with usa flag print at such topics.

I mean, there are a whole world of difficult (and deeply political) questions over what is censored and what is not, and how culturally in the west we seem to regard violence as somehow less offensive than a testicle, or the word "shit" as being in some way worse than a punch to the nose...

And fundamentally that's what this whole pg-13 thing is about.

I'd suggest that rather than relying on non-functional film censorship and rating guidelines, Arelith's staff should probably make a few definite decisions about what they do and do not want to permit - And when making those choices, to utterly disregard the pre-formed guideline-nonsense of film ratings.

[Memelord]

sexy elven fun times in the freezer section? Nope.

How rude. I'll have you know that up in Myon, we sexy elven fun times all day every day.

Myon is all about the sexy elven fun times, it's our motto:

Encourage and
Respect other
Players

As for people who want to cuss, well. Just do it sparingly and only for dramatic effect - or make use of the many colorful examples of lore-friendly Forgotten Realms specific curse words/phrases!

"Badaulder!" (Hogswash/Bull)
"Boots." (actually semi-polite, it's calling someone an expendable/unskilled soldier - cannonfodder.)
"Hells' Teeth!"
"Cyric's Blood."
"Oh, Ilmater's Patience." (I imagine it being used equally as a show of exacerbation and a sort of "Bless your heart." sort of deal.)
"Sandstone!" (effectively, "Shit!" for dwarves - because sandstone is unstable and crumbly enough that you can break it with your bare hands)
"You're open to the sky!" (a dwarven proclamation for something being unsafe, or when directed at a person that they're a liability)
"Go kiss an orc." (an elven insult)
"Orc-gobbler." (ironically, not even an elven insult - and far, far more profane)

[Lady Astray]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

Isn't this God-emoting? Or was the character already dead from PVP? I agree with the sentiment that monsters should be able to act like monsters. Doing something like that to a corpse is one thing. But if the player character is still alive and hasn't given consent for this to happen, it seems like a serious breach of the God-Emoting rule.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Godemoting

Another thing I'll say, is I can think of a dozen or more ways to torture someone IC off the top of my head that are completely PG-13. The server also has plenty of spells, items, etc. to aid with this. For example, there is a pair of gloves that lets you do a small amount of electric damage to another player an unlimited times a day. There are fear spells. You could just slap them around, or whip them. Maybe slash them once in the face with a dagger giving them a cool looking scar that they might actually wear with pride later. Mild stuff like that generally seems to be taken well by other players.

But nearly every instance of capture/torture RP I ever heard of went straight to extreme gore, dismemberment, mutilation, and so forth. Removing fingers, limbs, ears, lips, noses, eyes, tongue, etc. until the character is basically unplayable without pulling the whole, "A priest used Heal." or "A God revived me with no damage." arguments. So you end up with Porc the Orc getting skinned alive and barbeque'd only to come back 3 minutes later perfectly fine with no consequences. How is that a good narrative? There are much more creative ways one could inflict pain and consequences on another player's character than forcing them to pull the whole, "I got chopped up into pieces but I'm okay now." explanation which just ruins the immersion for a lot of us.

Personally, I'd rather not sit there and feel helpless as my character is abused. If I felt like it would be done tastefully I might be more eager to partake in that kind of RP. A black eye, a bloody nose, some bruises, a few broken ribs, and maybe a scar on the cheek would be totally acceptable to me. But skinning my character alive and wearing their skin like Buffalo Bill from Silence of the Lambs? I'm sorry, but stuff like that is really taking it too far and not respectful at all to me as a player. I'm here for a high fantasy adventure where I fight dragons and stuff. Not a poor imitation of a Stephen King horror novel where I'm the victim.

[CosmicOrderV]

Every situation that you "hear" of

[Lady Astray]

You can just read the entirety of this thread and see players admitting to pushing the PG-13 envelope in regards to torture. So don't roll your eyes at my post and pretend like it never happens.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I, As a lover of puns and other language related jokes , Am assuming the joke is: you "read" of them and not "hear".

[Lady Astray]

Sorry, I took it as just being needlessly dismissive rather than joking.

[Liareth]

[The GrumpyCat]

I'll admit that the PG13 line can be a bit of a trickly line to follow. Not just because it covers 'act' but also 'context.' The other Dms have given pretty good examples on where the line is though.

Reguarding Violence - yeah it makes no sense in our society that we are more easy going about torture than we are about sex. I dunno what that says, but sadly it's true and not something we can change.

I do sympathise with one point that players are saying however - When playing monster races by nature it's going to shift a bit away from PG13 in terms of violence. If you prevent that, then sadly what you end up with is people going 'Oh Drow arn't so bad. Really the surface is worse.' And if you remove the chance of torture, for example, then you prevent avenues for rp that arn't basically murder. I do agree it's a very careful line to walk, and I'd certainly advise that players tone down any excessive descriptions, and also ensure that at every point the other player involved is comfortable with it, but I do think there's a danger of sanitising the server too much at the same time.

One good line however is that of Language. A general rule of thumb which I like is this (and thank you Mithreas for this one)
If it's a swear that is used in the voice sets, or inthe main game of NWN (damn, bugger, blast, hells, ect) then you're free to use it as much as you want.

If it's not used then please avoid.

We'll over look the occasional more severe term - everyone slips up and yeah, the (VERY!) occasional S bomb is probably fine. And best used in extreme scarcity anyway, if only because then people know that S**t got real
But the F bomb really should be avoided at all costs. Sorry, I know that's probably dissapointing to some of you. But it's a line we really have to be firm on.

[The GrumpyCat]

For further reading here are links to prior threads on this topic.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22444&p=178754&hilit=PG13#p178754

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=21907&p=174647&hilit=PG13#p174647

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21884&hilit=PG13

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=14963&hilit=PG13 - This one isn't entirely about the PG13 ruling, but is an interesting and linked topic about PG13 language none the less.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12337&hilit=PG13 - another @!!"& thread about &*$£@ swearing!

Anything else is getting really old. I hope there's some useful stuff here for people though. (-: