Cost of Being Mundane

[Algol]

It's not just increased pvp power for a mundane. You need adamantine armor to be able to do mid to higher level epic dungeons. You need mithril pre epic. Casters don't need to buy gear ever while leveling except spell components or pouch if they are arcane casters.

[Edens_Fall]

I mean, there is a reason most PCs on the surface wear the Radiant Heart ring and it's not for the news letter.

Because it's also free exp and gold and a decent end game ring for pretty much all none evil nobles and clerics, paladins, knights and divine champions.

In exchange for these clear mechanical and QoL benefits it also shoehorns players into a very specific style of RP. This creates a homogenous character population on the surface that mostly exists only to dogpile and smother everything that deviates from it.

TBH, I'd consider this to be 2 arguments for the removal of the Radiant writ giver (if not the Radiant Heart itself) right off the bat.
Wouldn't really address the mundane consumable woes however - only pull the paladins down to their level.

I never really thought to deeply on the matter as I generally don't play Paladin etc, but if a player is rewarded for simply being a certain alignment/class with xp & gold . . . isn't that in itself a balance issue? Not even touching on the forced RP style as hinted above. As far as I am aware, no similar system is in place for evil PC's to collect special writs just because they selected a certain alignment/class.

Though I could be mistaken. Even after years, I still haven't explored every corner of the server.

[AstralUniverse]

As far as I am aware, no similar system is in place for evil PC's to collect special writs just because they selected a certain alignment/class.

There's Sencliff. Actually some setups can be members of both Sencliff and RH, unironically.

[-XXX-]

There's Sencliff.

Yeah, with the major difference being that pirates do actually need an alternative to regular writs to avoid getting casually PKed while they're still lvling, whereas the RH stuff is literally a bonus to the vanilla surface writ experience.

[Subtext]

Because it's also free exp and gold and a decent end game ring for pretty much all none evil nobles and clerics, paladins, knights and divine champions.

In exchange for these clear mechanical and QoL benefits it also shoehorns players into a very specific style of RP. This creates a homogenous character population on the surface that mostly exists only to dogpile and smother everything that deviates from it.

TBH, I'd consider this to be 2 arguments for the removal of the Radiant writ giver (if not the Radiant Heart itself) right off the bat.
Wouldn't really address the mundane consumable woes however - only pull the paladins down to their level.

I never really thought to deeply on the matter as I generally don't play Paladin etc, but if a player is rewarded for simply being a certain alignment/class with xp & gold . . . isn't that in itself a balance issue? Not even touching on the forced RP style as hinted above. As far as I am aware, no similar system is in place for evil PC's to collect special writs just because they selected a certain alignment/class.

Though I could be mistaken. Even after years, I still haven't explored every corner of the server.

I find it a lot less egregious than people make it out to be especially since the writs have been quite significantly nerfed. Essentially it's a rehash of other writs plus a few special ones on top. Additionally you can only take one writ there per day.
It really used to be absolutely bonkers before the change to writs - especially since you could do the RH writs at any level up to 30, it made that last stretch much more convenient. The XP rewards were great too, about the same as current regular writs. It's less now!
The ring used to be stronger too. What you get these days is roughly on par with a custom soft 5% ring. It's neat but not OP. By the time you are eligible to fully upgrade the ring, you are very likely already fully kitted out anyway since some of the writs are definitely endgame content.

In short. It's a very nice thing to have but it's not exactly gamebreaking. And I generally like the idea of having these extra writs in place and think it would be a nice system to expand to other areas of the server as well.
When it comes to evil, at least I personally find the leveling experience in the Underdark actually quicker despite having fewer writs available. In part due to more rewarding writs and due to mobs that yield more XP at a level range where you can reasonably tackle them.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I think the "advantages" of the sencliff writs and the radiant heart writs are often overstated. It's true that sometimes they overlap with a regular writ, giving you a huge jump on a day where you get say three regular writs done and two radiant heart writs done at the same time because they essentially have the same goals or whatever, but you can get to 30 doing about half the surface writs unless you take the slow level choice anyways, with no circle grinding involved. And I have never been able to get anywhere close to all the pirate writs done to get to dread without being at max xp for the last 5+ of them despite making an effort to do just that on multiple occasions.


As for the debate about mundanes that crop up every once in a while, I'm in the camp that thinks that the tradeoff just isn't there anymore, and hasn't been since CoT got nerfed. The reasons why I think that are all laid out pretty well in the Benny HIll Meta thread, but to tldr it for those not paying attention over there if I am going to have to chase you around with about the same ab as someone who can cast spells, use wands, ect, there is literally no point to not have the qol of having access to those things.

I still think pve is pretty easy though no matter what the build you play, and while it's been a minute since I went the true mundane path, I'm sure I can still level them just as easy as a caster.

[AstralUniverse]

There's Sencliff.

Yeah, with the major difference being that pirates do actually need an alternative to regular writs to avoid getting casually PKed while they're still lvling.

No they dont. that tag is barely if at all detectible until the really high ranks.

[Xerah]

The RH writs are significant, no matter what anyone says. It’s often just free extra exp and gold for doing normal writs. I’m not sure how you can call it anything else.

The writs should not give gold and exp.

[Edens_Fall]

I vote for letting the Church of Minmir offer a ring similar to the RH but for evil Blackguards, Clerics, Nobles for balance and new drip.

Did I use that right? Drip?

[perseid]

It's not just increased pvp power for a mundane. You need adamantine armor to be able to do mid to higher level epic dungeons. You need mithril pre epic. Casters don't need to buy gear ever while leveling except spell components or pouch if they are arcane casters.

I feel like this understates just how much increased pvp power you get for being mundane.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The RH writs are significant, no matter what anyone says. It’s often just free extra exp and gold for doing normal writs. I’m not sure how you can call it anything else.

The writs should not give gold and exp.

Unless they overlap, which admittedly some of them do, it still takes time to do that fourth writ. In that time, you can go circle grind your favorite dungeon at your level and make more gold and more exp then you did on the fourth writ. Hell, you could have done that instead of any writs, assuming you can take the tedium of it all. That's why I call it overstated.

[Hazard]

I vote for letting the Church of Minmir offer a ring similar to the RH but for evil Blackguards, Clerics, Nobles for balance and new drip.

Did I use that right? Drip?

I like this idea, but the problem with an evil signet is Arelith is very zealous. More than the "mainland". There's no real room for morally grey or evil characters to slip into the adventuring group of a bunch of goodies, except for when no one has figured out you're a baddie. Wearing a ring like that is just asking to get hunted by entire settlements.

[Helsing]

It's not just increased pvp power for a mundane. You need adamantine armor to be able to do mid to higher level epic dungeons. You need mithril pre epic. Casters don't need to buy gear ever while leveling except spell components or pouch if they are arcane casters.

This is very true. Usually you need the addy gears for high lvl dungeons, 4 AC is a big difference for live and death.

[Helsing]

I vote for letting the Church of Minmir offer a ring similar to the RH but for evil Blackguards, Clerics, Nobles for balance and new drip.

Did I use that right? Drip?

Bad idea, Sencliff is the chaotic version of RH already, we don’t need another evil version.

[Hazard]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Spell components are forever. I have made over 20 million gold selling spell components on one of my characters. It's just greenstone/malachite, coal and sand. The bothersome part is the time, but you can easily craft up massive amounts of this stuff.

Once a mundane is geared, that's it. They run for free now. I can zip through a dungeon on my mundane without needing to use a single consumable, and hang around until I get bored or the doom ost ends, then I go back to town and sell my crap for like 400k-600k after a chill gold gathering sesh.

Doing that on a non-mundane requires constant stops to rest, chugging alcohol whenever your spells start wearing off/get dispelled, and with casters/summoners, you're going to get through that dungeon once in the time a 25/5 can get through it 10+ times.

Mundanes do have challenges that magic users don't have, but I don't know if it's something that needs fixing. It's sort of inherent in the dungeons and dragons game. You're a person totally forgoing magic in a world where magic more than exists, it is common. In exchange for that, the 'mundane' things you can do have a very high potential ceiling. Arelith reflects this well. The PvP power a mundane can reach on their own (and even more so when supported by others) is very high. Their usefulness in PvE is great too.

I promise people there are good dungeons you can do as a mundane without spending a coin, and bringing in great profits. You just have to find them. You don't always need to go for the highest level best gear drop rng dungeon. You can just find a place that has a lot of something you can profit from like lots of jewelry, heads, scrolls. Even without leadership and appraise these rake in the profits like crazy, and if you can afford those skills or hang onto your stuff until you find someone with those skills even better. You're going to be RICH.

25/5 is a mundane, and imo one of if not THE best builds to play atm. Not saying it's OP. It feels just right. It feels good. It's fun. You can make insane gold. It's a great mundane build. Even crappy builds that I think are close to being non-viable in pvp and in need of severe buffs (deep rogue) can be incredibly profitable. You can sneak through most places and pick up treasures.

Crafting, as mentioned above with spell components, is also a great way any str mundane can get rich, because of the sheer amount you can carry around while running. That's a huge boon a lot of people overlook. You can get all the things no one else can be bothered walking (or crawling) back with, and you can fill your inventory with it.

The very high grade rewards offered by sailing have really tanked the market for mundanes. People get salty when all they find is 8 addy ingots in a chest, and pure zard has gone from millions to easily affordable.

I don't think the cost of being mundane is in a bad place, and I'm saying this as someone who most recently (apart my latest new character) been primarily playing mundanes.

Oh, just came to mind. Since you have no spellslots, you can pretty comfortable just carry around some appraise/leadership gear for selling up. Style it so it looks like nice town wear and it's all comfy and IC. Good times.

[Svrtr]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Just gotta say, the average price of a chunk of adamantine on the surface is about 25k or so. Thats 50k per ingot if people don't increase the price to 55k. Per ingot.

The +4 tower shield is 4 ingots, a +3 tower shield is 3 ingots.

Addy plate armor is 4 ingots, orog armor is 6, bulwark plate is 4, dragonbone plate requires addy plate and a star sapphire (which will go for approximately 70k currently)

Depending on the helmet that is 2 more

Assuming you are 25/5 and go for a keen m.damask scimitar, thats another 1 ingot before factoring 5%-ing or getting a MW bladerune to make it keen which is still roughly 350-550k

However for the sake of weapons, most unique weapons are 1 addy ingot for 1h, 2 for 2h (like unfettered edge), and another valuable material like rogue stones (approximately 35k)


Lets assume you're a 21 fighter 5 WM 4 LM going for the +4 tower shield, dragonbone plate, and cavalry sword instead of 5%-ing scimitar.

10 addy ingots (about 500k), about another 120k in rare materials, more various materials such as mithril ingots and whatnot, and then actually crafting it. Lets assume you're a smith, as elsewise you would need to pay someone for several thousand CP of crafting.

This is costing 800-900k for 3 pieces of gear, with addy being 500-550k approximately (can maybe manage 450k if you buy from UD)


25/5 then is the same but with a MW blade rune instead of a rogue stone like for the knight commander saber, so thats 1.2 million easily.



If you want to go solo stuff that has addy? Lol, lmao, good luck without regen, NEP, mind blank, etc etc. Paying for these consumables is laughably expensive for the price people charge for them from the cost to make them (7k for NEP wand) and then upcharging for profit, while the wards last like 7 minutes. LM has it nicer here because they can actually use wands unlike 25/5 and have a bonus to CL once they get to epics, but jack until epics.

This is for what is likely the 3 most expensive pieces of gear granted, but addy has not gotten significantly cheaper on the whole.



Likewise I have no clue where people get the notion mundies that are 25/5 have it easy and are fast. I have myself never before cleared a runic solo on a mundie that can have addy in less than 30 or so minutes unless you skip to the end and don't die on the way. Meanwhile a planar conduit shaman or cleric or a hemomancer can manage comfortably in about 15 in the case of one of the easier ones (illithids) which has now also had its runic chest removed. Unless you're spamming spells or going slow, you should not need to rest during a runic dungeon and can still just ward up, summon, use sequencer, and go through like a breeze for a good chunk of them, or at worst rest once in longer dungeons with rougher enemies like maurs

[Hazard]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Just gotta say, the average price of a chunk of adamantine on the surface is about 25k or so. Thats 50k per ingot if people don't increase the price to 55k. Per ingot.

The +4 tower shield is 4 ingots, a +3 tower shield is 3 ingots.

Addy plate armor is 4 ingots, orog armor is 6, bulwark plate is 4, dragonbone plate requires addy plate and a star sapphire (which will go for approximately 70k currently)

Depending on the helmet that is 2 more

Assuming you are 25/5 and go for a keen m.damask scimitar, thats another 1 ingot before factoring 5%-ing or getting a MW bladerune to make it keen which is still roughly 350-550k

However for the sake of weapons, most unique weapons are 1 addy ingot for 1h, 2 for 2h (like unfettered edge), and another valuable material like rogue stones (approximately 35k)


Lets assume you're a 21 fighter 5 WM 4 LM going for the +4 tower shield, dragonbone plate, and cavalry sword instead of 5%-ing scimitar.

10 addy ingots (about 500k), about another 120k in rare materials, more various materials such as mithril ingots and whatnot, and then actually crafting it. Lets assume you're a smith, as elsewise you would need to pay someone for several thousand CP of crafting.

This is costing 800-900k for 3 pieces of gear, with addy being 500-550k approximately (can maybe manage 450k if you buy from UD)


25/5 then is the same but with a MW blade rune instead of a rogue stone like for the knight commander saber, so thats 1.2 million easily.



If you want to go solo stuff that has addy? Lol, lmao, good luck without regen, NEP, mind blank, etc etc. Paying for these consumables is laughably expensive for the price people charge for them from the cost to make them (7k for NEP wand) and then upcharging for profit, while the wards last like 7 minutes. LM has it nicer here because they can actually use wands unlike 25/5 and have a bonus to CL once they get to epics, but jack until epics.

This is for what is likely the 3 most expensive pieces of gear granted, but addy has not gotten significantly cheaper on the whole.



Likewise I have no clue where people get the notion mundies that are 25/5 have it easy and are fast. I have myself never before cleared a runic solo on a mundie that can have addy in less than 30 or so minutes unless you skip to the end and don't die on the way. Meanwhile a planar conduit shaman or cleric or a hemomancer can manage comfortably in about 15 in the case of one of the easier ones (illithids) which has now also had its runic chest removed. Unless you're spamming spells or going slow, you should not need to rest during a runic dungeon and can still just ward up, summon, use sequencer, and go through like a breeze for a good chunk of them, or at worst rest once in longer dungeons with rougher enemies like maurs

You don't gotta do runics to make crazy profits, though. That's the thing. I don't bother, not just on mundanes but on any character. I find it far more profitable for time invested to go clear less difficult dungeons. Scrolls, jewelry, heads, gems, a few chests here and there will always bring my character a lot of wealth without a lot (or any cost), where as if I did go for the runic dungeons then yes, everything you said is spot on, but the problem is even after getting to the end I might walk away empty handed. It's a gamble, and best done in a group so that atleast you had a fun adventure if no one finds anything.

Instead of hoping I find my own addy to mine, I can easily drum up 200k in a quick few runs of a good place by just selling loot then buy someone elses addy.

If anyone would like a few tips on good mid to high level dungeons to run for good profits outside of runics. Just good old fashioned loot grinding. PM me, I can share a couple. Won't post here because FOIG and all that, but if you're really struggling feel free to poke me. The dungeons are still relatively fun/challenging, and even provide decent XP to get you to 30 if you're willing to sacrifice lightning fast leveling in exchange for a phat bank account.

[Kalthariam]

I've found adamantine veins on the surface in places that my 30 fighter can solo without any issue using just vendor potions. (Zoo, Barkskin, A scroll of Mage Armor, that sort of thing) total cost of prep is like what? 500 gold? If that? And I can just clear through an entire dungeon get all the dungeon drops, and get two ore veins at the end one of which can be adamantine. (Others usually Mithril Silver Gold, though sometimes you get stuff like tin which is just awful)

My pure 30 fighter has gotten 18 ingots of adamantine from this one farming spot. It's a heavily trafficed place from my experience as well, so it's certainly not a secret area. This characters jumped over a million gold multiple times through working pretty hard on filling crafting orders. Outside of being in my mid 20's level before I could do much and was just unlocking all the level 21 gear I had to unlock I've never once felt poor or like I was screwed because I didn't have money.

My 30 fighter got a suit of dragonbone armor (Before the recipe was changed to mithril) for nearly free (8 adamantine ingots worth of adamantine) and that was by far their most expensive item, basically got it for free because I poked around, and followed in character rumors for places people were finding adamantine that wasn't All your typical epic dungeons people go to.

Honestly I've found Runic chasing to NOT be a good form of money. I'm still sitting on a masterwork blade rune that I legit cannot sell for 400k on my character because no one wants it or needs it, because outside of Masterly Damask weapons you can't use the runes on as much stuff anymore, all the new +4 weapons cannot be Runed, and the only runes people seem to be after are bejeweled and Forged runes anymore.

I'd say stop focusing on Runics and focus on other profit items, find a niche in a market that everyone needs gather that instead, you'll not only have an easier time gathering that item and not waiting on pure RNG but you'll also have a constant source of income (At least until you crash the market because you over farmed it <_<) Only time runics are worth money is if someone's actively looking for one. I see runes EVERYWHERE in stores and runic material everywhere, all of it sitting for months because people charge dumb prices for it and it just piles up to the point of absurdity.

That's not even touching the absurdity that is the amount of gold you can get as a mundane sailing. Most sailing challenges are not difficult, and I've seen hauls of people getting hundreds of thousands of gold for a few leisurely hours of sailing. (I was one of these people on my spellsword) The only downside to sailing is the sailing skill investment required, but I'd argue that sailing is a better money making skill than leadership is these days.

[Helsing]

I've found adamantine veins on the surface in places that my 30 fighter can solo without any issue using just vendor potions. (Zoo, Barkskin, A scroll of Mage Armor, that sort of thing) total cost of prep is like what? 500 gold? If that? And I can just clear through an entire dungeon get all the dungeon drops, and get two ore veins at the end one of which can be adamantine. (Others usually Mithril Silver Gold, though sometimes you get stuff like tin which is just awful)

My pure 30 fighter has gotten 18 ingots of adamantine from this one farming spot. It's a heavily trafficed place from my experience as well, so it's certainly not a secret area. This characters jumped over a million gold multiple times through working pretty hard on filling crafting orders. Outside of being in my mid 20's level before I could do much and was just unlocking all the level 21 gear I had to unlock I've never once felt poor or like I was screwed because I didn't have money.

My 30 fighter got a suit of dragonbone armor (Before the recipe was changed to mithril) for nearly free (8 adamantine ingots worth of adamantine) and that was by far their most expensive item, basically got it for free because I poked around, and followed in character rumors for places people were finding adamantine that wasn't All your typical epic dungeons people go to.

Honestly I've found Runic chasing to NOT be a good form of money. I'm still sitting on a masterwork blade rune that I legit cannot sell for 400k on my character because no one wants it or needs it, because outside of Masterly Damask weapons you can't use the runes on as much stuff anymore, all the new +4 weapons cannot be Runed, and the only runes people seem to be after are bejeweled and Forged runes anymore.

I'd say stop focusing on Runics and focus on other profit items, find a niche in a market that everyone needs gather that instead, you'll not only have an easier time gathering that item and not waiting on pure RNG but you'll also have a constant source of income (At least until you crash the market because you over farmed it <_<) Only time runics are worth money is if someone's actively looking for one. I see runes EVERYWHERE in stores and runic material everywhere, all of it sitting for months because people charge dumb prices for it and it just piles up to the point of absurdity.

That's not even touching the absurdity that is the amount of gold you can get as a mundane sailing. Most sailing challenges are not difficult, and I've seen hauls of people getting hundreds of thousands of gold for a few leisurely hours of sailing. (I was one of these people on my spellsword) The only downside to sailing is the sailing skill investment required, but I'd argue that sailing is a better money making skill than leadership is these days.

Since the location of Addy vein is FOIG, your experience won't affect the fact that a lot new ppls cannot access to addy and have to spend a lot cash to buy them.

[Edens_Fall]

I vote for letting the Church of Minmir offer a ring similar to the RH but for evil Blackguards, Clerics, Nobles for balance and new drip.

Did I use that right? Drip?

Bad idea, Sencliff is the chaotic version of RH already, we don’t need another evil version.

I would disagree. Sencliff is gated behind the ink, a permanent brand, and not a ring one can remove at will. Also one can join the RH, do the writs, get the ring and never RP as a member. Just walk off and live their life in the settlement of their choice. If someone takes the ink they are trapped and restricted to Sencliff.

So I would argue comparing the two is apples and oranges.

[Kalthariam]

It's also not a secret, and if you poked around yourself or asked around I'm certain people would be able to tell you where to find other sources of adamantine.

Sure if you literally do not explore and do not ask around, your only option is the ridiculous epic dungeons that still more often than not do not have adamantine, or buying it from other people.

But that's now a "Mundane" cost, that's a Knowledge cost.

The same type of knowledge cost that plenty of people whom just don't know better buying random generated loot that is awful, or someone overpaying for something because they don't know where to get it. Like the people that sell vendor bought barkskin potions for 100 gold each in their shops and people buy them because they don't know less than a two minute walk away will let them buy them from a vendor for like 80 gold.

[Xerah]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Spell components are forever. I have made over 20 million gold selling spell components on one of my characters. It's just greenstone/malachite, coal and sand. The bothersome part is the time, but you can easily craft up massive amounts of this stuff.

Your characters are years old, of course they made a lot on that. Additionally, the cost of components has dropped 50% from when you started until now.

[Helsing]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Spell components are forever. I have made over 20 million gold selling spell components on one of my characters. It's just greenstone/malachite, coal and sand. The bothersome part is the time, but you can easily craft up massive amounts of this stuff.

Do you realize divine casters can cast top level spells almost freely?

[Hazard]

Addy gear is not expensive anymore, and you only need to buy it once.

Spell components are forever. I have made over 20 million gold selling spell components on one of my characters. It's just greenstone/malachite, coal and sand. The bothersome part is the time, but you can easily craft up massive amounts of this stuff.

Your characters are years old, of course they made a lot on that. Additionally, the cost of components has dropped 50% from when you started until now.

Still making huge profit off of components now, and selling them for 700 where I used to sell them for 800 each. That's not a 50% drop. My characters are years old and my characters are brand new. I play many characters. The age of my character does not at all change the amount of profit I can gain per time invested. Totally irrelevant detail when discussing gold earned per time invested.

Do you realize divine casters can cast top level spells almost freely?

Yes. I do.

[AstralUniverse]

Gold generation from dungeons hasnt ever been particularly worse than now. All of the 'op' gold income methods have been nerfed. Chest bashing is also history. Gearing a mundane has (almost) never been slower than now and considering the pace of exp gaining, I can say I get to lvl 30 with my lvl 10 mithril gear on almost any melee character. It's slower than soloing with summons because I need to play defensively with expertise in my lack of gear and I cant go to the really good dungeons solo, but it's better than spending half milion on items which arent end-game gear. Saying that adamantine is cheaper these days is a HUGE hyperbole because even if it is (which I dont even think it is. seeing them for 50k on average around the surface settlements) it's a lot because of gold generation and not because of the abundance of addy.