Summon Adjustments

[Biolab00]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

[perseid]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

The EDK dies to two dimissals or a mord and a WoF depending on if you're a caster or using items to sweep it. Its greatest strength at this point is that it's been bad so long most people aren't familiar with going through the motions to remove one anymore so they tend to hesitate.

[Biolab00]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

The EDK dies to two dimissals or a mord and a WoF depending on if you're a caster or using items to sweep it. Its greatest strength at this point is that it's been bad so long most people aren't familiar with going through the motions to remove one anymore so they tend to hesitate.

Dragon Knight is not too shabby in it's attack and to give you three rounds and just being a nuisance on a battlefield makes a WHOLE difference.
You can't WOF it unless you're a cleric because they have 32SR.
Whoever can cast dismissal or a mord means you're also facing another Wizard or Clerics per se.
So...it's not 1 on 1.

But Wizards are master at escape if they just want to do so. Just have to be....fast on your fingers

Edit : The reason why i say Wizard and not Sorcerer is because only Wizard has enough feats to get all these epic spell focus and epic spell.

I'll avoid reposting and probably end my post on the current thread discussion with my below words

There remains a Huge difference between a pure caster with epic abjuration focus, casting a Mords compared to a Mord gem.
Similarly, a Huge difference between a pure caster casting WOF than those from scrolls or grimoires.
I can see that quite a couple if not many other players disagree with what i wrote but what i've wrote, is what i've witnessed before.
PVP is usually such a chaotic mess that it's hard for us to discuss it on pen and paper and a Big Hitbox often screw many things up.
Then again, this nerf was not about PVP but PVE.
I standby saying that pure martial is having a hard time with PVE end game content and some dungeon are even impossible for them compared to Caster.
So, please do not keep using Martial are great and Caster is weak etc.
Just check the post on the number of classes posted few months ago and see how many are wizards, you'll get an idea.
It's never true that Wizard are weak.
It's never true that Martial are strong as well.

Well...only spellsword is an abomination because it's not a wizard and not a martial.

[For My Next Trick]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

Rogues can literally have DC 35-40 blind to flatfoot most things and sneak attack in a 1v1. And your AC numbers are very off. Hellball doesn't kill people, and most saves come from +Unisave gear and spellcraft as a skill so no. A mords isn't removing that. It's clear you might not be aware of people being able to add +7-9 unisave to their gear, and +22-+25 spellcraft for a total of like +14 to all their saves for gear on top of their base saves, whatever they have geared for ability scores, and spellcraft as a skill. What I've outlined above is easily doable especially with the changes proposed to the enchanting system (Which look great BTW) but what this means is it's going to be remarkably easy for people to get +13 to +15 to their saving throws. On top of everything else that can't be dispelled.

[Kythana]

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

So you're not even doing the evo combo, so you don't even force a pray. The Dragon can be kited, or mords gem + wof scroll. Or you can just burst the wizard down, since a DC casting wizard has super low hp. This is some actually legacy advice that is not applicable to modern Arelith at all.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

Nope. Literally not true. A significant portion of your saves comes from gearing them + spellcraft. Go ask an actually geared pvp ready wm what their gear looks like.

And even beyond this, you have clarity potions for the really bad things. Fort is going to be high no matter.

[perseid]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

The EDK dies to two dimissals or a mord and a WoF depending on if you're a caster or using items to sweep it. Its greatest strength at this point is that it's been bad so long most people aren't familiar with going through the motions to remove one anymore so they tend to hesitate.

Dragon Knight is not too shabby in it's attack and to give you three rounds and just being a nuisance on a battlefield makes a WHOLE difference.
You can't WOF it unless you're a cleric because they have 32SR.
Whoever can cast dismissal or a mord means you're also facing another Wizard or Clerics per se.
So...it's not 1 on 1.

But Wizards are master at escape if they just want to do so. Just have to be....fast on your fingers

Edit : The reason why i say Wizard and not Sorcerer is because only Wizard has enough feats to get all these epic spell focus and epic spell.

Mord gems, Mord Scrolls, and WoF books/scrolls are all highly abundant. Needing to Mord and WoF something is by no means an indication you're facing a purecaster.

[stop bullying bards]

I wanted to say after the update went live on the PGCC/Live servers, I went and checked out the 'new' version of Epic Spell: Elemental Meteor versus Epic Spell: Planar Conduit for my character's casting strength.

Old version of Lawful Good Planar Conduit + Monolithic Water Elemental:

Updated version of Lawful Good Planar Conduit + Monolithic Water Elemental:

I had already felt like Elemental Meteor was in a bad place given it is 32 Spellcraft locked, instead of the 15 Spellcraft locked Planar Conduit. Especially for classes that might want something to fill the rift moving into Epic levels on the server. Since a 32 Requirement pushes the feat to level 30 on account of the initial damage it might offer if someone tries to use it offensively at the start of a fight, however few times that might actually happen.

Though, class flavor and roleplay pushed me into wanting to try out the more support based Elemental Meteor, rather than more generic Planar Conduit. With Epic Spell: Elemental Meteor losing 15 AC, and 180 HP, Elemental Meteor dropping from a 4APR single creature down to a 3 APR creature with the haste change, I'm not sure the niche bonuses it offers outweigh simply taking conduit in all situations. Compared to, two summons at the near same AB, Higher AC, both still have Regeneration, both have higher health Elemental Meteor in a small amount, and one of them is 4APR to still total out at 7 attacks between the pair.

Is something going to be done to make Meteor competitive with Planar Conduit?
This feat is looking like something overlooked, and I hope it is addressed before this ten week trial concludes.

[Ruzuke]

While a druid with elemental swarm is powerful and able to easily clear content levels higher than them and low level content on Skal was helped a great deal with that helping hounds potion. The issue is one class and low level dungeons.

What do Sorcerers and Favored Souls have going for them? Less feats, skills, and cannot do anything that someone cannot do better? In the case of Favored Souls they do not even get paths. So I would ask you make them viable concepts.

For other classes such as Blackguard which gain summons could you add in the spell book they are supposed to have as in D&D which all around make them a much better class with their level 4 spell casting abilities. (Giving Assassins their spell book they gain in D&D would be a bonus as well).

So while yes two builds can quickly become overpowered with summons others are not. When I play I like accomplishing something. If I have a lot of time it is RP. If I do not then I might want to do a dungeon, gather resources and my spellcasters cannot do that without a pet.

[Wolfgangvondi]

Hi,

Just to leave some feedback about the current update that changed stuff on summons.
I know very little about the actual mechanic of the game but heres what I feel in the game ("tested" in the normal servers and not in the PGCC).

Elemental swarm: simply fells terrible now. Very Low ac and low AB equals the summons are not able to be of much use in an higher "level zone". They die VERY fast, and miss almost all of the tacks. Even whit the druid sequencer that gives +str + dex barkskin and stone skin.

Elemental Meteor: Seens completely pointless now and an waste of a feat? Feels like its the same than Just one of the older summons Of the elemental swarm, but just whit more life. But its only one instead of 4 Summons.

Epic Spell: Planar Conduit: its now the only summon able to actually still be usefully in an higher level zone.

I have an cleric Summon, whit earth domain... that 90% of the time used elemental swarm, and I did loved to use it. Now that doesn't feel viable anymore. : /

[Lass is Class]

1. Most of the game content is solo-able easier, and faster, by those who don't have ESF: Conjuration. It is also more fun.
A short list.
Warlocks, spellswords, elementalists, hemomancers, warpriests - don't need/can't get a summon and easily breeze through almost any the content even easier. Special bonus - warlocks can get a summon too which is overpowered.

2. What really was/is out of tune is Planar Ally, and early level summons.
The early game summons after the changes were, indeed, too strong, especially when a character had GSF: Conjuration that allowed to skip a tier.

The Planar Conduit should be reworked. What it offers now is way too much for a singular feat, and other summoning feats, EDK and Monolithic, are non-competitive against Planar Conduit in any way.

Planar Conduit is not equal to summoner, either, it does not require ESF: Conjuration (which it should if its stats/mechanics are to remain as they are). And other summons' stats should not be adjusted to what Planar Conduit has, they need to be brought in line together.

3. Game content in general is easy to solo, and summons are just /one way/ to do it.
The new changes for the bosses getting new spells were good ones, but they were few, and scarce.

Revisiting the content itself getting more variables and bosses getting random spellbooks that are still in flavour, could address making content harder and more interesting, but not necessarily impossible to approach.

4. Making PvE summons lose their stats without introducing a substitution for the summoners will, indeed, result in much less players considering summoner-based classes as viable to play.

Without a reliable PvE tool, many lose interest quickly.

5. EDK is bugged, lasts only 2 rounds/level, stats out of tune, and in general is out of sync with the server's change to 'no dragons'.

Code: Select all

The locus of power of any character should be the character itself. Summons should be a tool available in your tool kit; not the only lifeline that makes your entire class viable to play at all to begin with.

Paint is correct here, cannot agree more. Summons should be just one of the tools, that a character can focus on to get it a bit stronger if they want so, just as wizard does with any spellschool they want to hone.

The Conjuration spell focuses, themselves, should get a revisit, how they interact and what they give to a summon.

TL;DR
Summons are tools. Not a lifelife. Useless tools are bad design. Too good tools are bad design.

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

I’ve soloed most of the server (including ZW) on pure mundane strength WMs and AAs. 60 AC to do an epic dungeon is absolutely not necessary. 48-49 AC pre-haste AC will stomp virtually every dungeon.

You’re really overestimating what’s required to do PVE content here, and I can only assume your standard is what it takes to sit still and trade blows with a room of enemies at a time. The AI in this game is not good, and you can kite out basically every fight if you need to.

[For My Next Trick]

Paint is correct here, cannot agree more. Summons should be just one of the tools, that a character can focus on to get it a bit stronger if they want so, just as wizard does with any spellschool they want to hone.

Not a lifelife and only real way to be useful in a group.

I want to agree. It -should- just be one of a tools. But with the class as it is right now. This isn't true.

[Biolab00]

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

I’ve soloed most of the server (including ZW) on pure mundane strength WMs and AAs. 60 AC to do an epic dungeon is absolutely not necessary. 48-49 AC pre-haste AC will stomp virtually every dungeon.

You’re really overestimating what’s required to do PVE content here, and I can only assume your standard is what it takes to sit still and trade blows with a room of enemies at a time. The AI in this game is not good, and you can kite out basically every fight if you need to.

Well that's not true for High end epic dungeon. I'll not quote what these dungeons are because it's all FOIG.
Just that they have their AB adjusted to 48 and above, crit x 3 with 4APR and their caster minion begin with mass haste.

Edit : With regards to known dungeon such as RDI, the recent rework with Abazuur means that you cannot drop him as a martial if you do not abuse the 'pillars' and use certain line of sight with heal pots, true strike potions as a martial
What used to be possible for 5 crits to end Abazuur is no longer possible with the current rework whereby it begins with displacement spell and the Mages are terrible to deal with as well.
You'll just need plenty of consumables. Like i said, Spellsword is not martial because what i mention above does not hold an ounce of true if you're soloing RDI as a spellsword.

As for which dungeon that i'm referring to as High end epic, it's all FOIG. It depends on how much server content that you've been through. I wouldn't want to ruin everyone's experience to just write it all out.

[AllPizzasArePersonal]

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

I’ve soloed most of the server (including ZW) on pure mundane strength WMs and AAs. 60 AC to do an epic dungeon is absolutely not necessary. 48-49 AC pre-haste AC will stomp virtually every dungeon.

You’re really overestimating what’s required to do PVE content here, and I can only assume your standard is what it takes to sit still and trade blows with a room of enemies at a time. The AI in this game is not good, and you can kite out basically every fight if you need to.

Well that's not true for High end epic dungeon. I'll not quote what these dungeons are because it's all FOIG.
Just that they have their AB adjusted to 48 and above, crit x 3 with 4APR and their caster minion begin with mass haste.

Which? What are you defining as a “high end epic dungeon”? Wells? RDI? Mourn? ZW? These are all soloable if you know how to play this game.

I don’t have the patience to solo the Tree, sure. There is content that would be annoying to solo. But other than the novelty of soloing Paush, there’s no reason to do it. You already get access to everything.

Your opening comment was that to solo a “basic epic dungeon”, you need 60 AC. This is wildly untrue.

Edit: the context of the discussion we’re having here is that summoners feel that their ability to solo content is threatened by these nerfs, while melee classes do fine. You responded to this saying they couldn’t actually. If what you meant by that is that there is some dungeon that they can’t solo, I don’t think you’re responding to the actual point. I will concede that there are some dungeons that can’t be soloed easily by a martial class - it’s just totally irrelevant.

[Paint]

Paint is correct here, cannot agree more. Summons should be just one of the tools, that a character can focus on to get it a bit stronger if they want so, just as wizard does with any spellschool they want to hone.

Not a lifelife and only real way to be useful in a group.

I want to agree. It -should- just be one of a tools. But with the class as it is right now. This isn't true.

This is mostly my point. I personally think these adjustments are a step in the right direction, but without some serious changes to the mechanics of spells for caster-focused classes and builds, there's an entire category of classes that just aren't worth playing right now.

Edit:
I feel like I need to add this disclaimer to everything I say, but what I mean by 'not worth playing right now,' isn't just some dramatic reflex here, nor is it coming from a purely mechanical place of mind. Arelith is a very complex ecosystem of roleplay and mechanics and both interlock regularly. It's impossible to divorce the mechanical experience of Arelith from the roleplaying experience forever, and if any of you think you've figured out the sauce for that, you're delusional, and clearly, haven't been dragged through enough unwanted PVP.

The value of your character mechanically does affect the kind of RP you can get, does affect the kind of events and outings you're invited on, and does ultimately, have an impact on how far your character develops. So what I mean by, 'an entire category of classes that just aren't worth playing right now,' is that there are classes and builds that fill the roleplay niches of the classes that are really going to suffer from this and can fill the same mechanical niches in a group, too. And these classes and builds will suffer far less and find it easier to get into group outings because of this.

More group outings, more incentive to get involved. More incentive to get involved, more RP. The cycle repeats.

[Inordinate]

I gave my feedback nearly a year ago and warned against doing this exact thing you're doing now. lmao

[Anomandaris]

What inficasters are doing is so much more disgusting to trivialize the servers content than anything a summoner can do.

Seriously, go watch a warlock, elementalist or hemomancer. The rest of the party can just rp for fun and watch.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

It’s infinitely more simple to nerf things that work well than bringing up things that underperform, cuz nerfs don’t directly affect other classes, but buffs might have huge consequences. So in that regard I completely understand the reasoning behind the change, even if I disagree with it. It is an easy and quick solution that gets things done.

It does however feel out of whack to get a rugged pulled from under certain builds with nothing put in its place in return. But I don’t play and don’t want to play summoners, so eh. It’s second hand disappointment, I’d rather people get cool stuff and be happy than lose stuff that was pivotal to their viability in certain areas.

Edit: and I assume that it has been done according to the data collected over a vast period of time, based on information that a lot of people don’t have access to and can’t see. Just like with wizard being one of the most popular classes. So please, be respectful, as we most likely do not have any semblance of a full picture behind this decision.

[ElevenOne]

I started playing a Wiz / LM (Yes, I know, awful combo) for the past 2-3 weeks and I do agree the summons were too awesome, but I thought it was because I took GSF: Conjuration at level 1, kinda cheating the system by having a spell power that comes from 2 levels later, which is unique for the casters.

The main thing is, as the time it would have been better if the nerf came with a positive change at the same time, because, right now, the wizard tools are slowly chipping 1 enemy life with a cantrip and pray to RNGesus a Flux procs to cast some kind of damage spell and every enemy group always spawn with 5-8 enemies, so without a summon and not having flux from a previous battle, with the limited spell slots makes it harder to finish a dungeon. I just ran a dungeon I ran yesterday and it took 30 more minutes because my summon was doing less damage (I assume the lack of mass bull) and I guess I had bad luck with the Flux proc?

Unfortunately, some dungeons are long or very long, so just using the spellbook to deal damage would not pass the half-way mark of them before running out of spells. Resting alone in the middle of a dungeon can be dangerous and a fool thing to do.

If this update goal was to make wizards join parties, I am wondering what is the wizard role in a party?
Every mundane just drinks zoo buffs that are almost the same power as the wizard spells, so is the wizard a mass haste bot that now saves money on consumables?

Without a summon, every other class fills the DPS role. The wizard DPS time only comes up when Flux procs, which sometimes does not happen for quite a while and the larger the party, the less it procs as the group hacks away the enemies faster than the wizard can cast the cantrips.

And to make it worse, the cantrip sometimes does not get returned if it is cast at an enemy that disappears. So on the parties I had ran, sometimes I ran out of cantrips just because it bugs out and the wiz only has 4 cantrips slots with no way to restore, aside resting. (The Clutch feat also does not work on those, for some reason when I tested on the PGCC).

The auto cantrip is also not perfect because it tends to cast the spell to a dead body, I tried to cast them manually but is annoying a bit a difficult to hit the target I was aiming and not a friend.

I am crossing fingers the "10" weeks feedback period gets shortened, or this change reverted, or an update is done that gives wizard a system to play without depending on a summon, because as the current status of the class there is no incentive to play a wizard at all.

[Cthuletta]

This change makes me a little sad.
I totally understand if pushing towards making PvE content a bit more difficult is a thing that is wanted. A good challenge can be very fun, I personally enjoy it from time to time. In this instance I think the wrong type of tool is being looked at, however.
My summons were already useless in PvP. One WoF and I'm toast. I don't even bother wasting those precious seconds to do Elemental Swarm most of the time because I don't want to waste MORE seconds drinking a Remove Blindness pot while getting smacked. Especially as a Totem, where my choices are 'shift and maybe live' or 'risk another spell and go down in three hits'. I've had to figure out work-arounds to essentially confuse the person I'm fighting to even stand a chance and fight as though I'm a mundane relying on potions when shifted since my summons aren't gonna help me.

And now they've been... lessened significantly, particularly for more difficult PvE areas where I'm able to get time to buff them beforehand. I'll give it the good ol' college try, of course, but being less capable in PvE when summoners are already hit hard in PvP is a little disheartening.

I hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory, or rude to the team. I mean it with the greatest respect. I don't want to have to min/max any class for PvE. I just want to go kill things, usually on my own since I prefer to move at my own pace. I understand the necessity and drive for grouping up and making content much harder for runic dungeons- but outside of that, I don't quite understand the focus on summons and how powerful they are given some of the other much more notorious and powerful classes available.

[Biolab00]

This change makes me a little sad.
I totally understand if pushing towards making PvE content a bit more difficult is a thing that is wanted. A good challenge can be very fun, I personally enjoy it from time to time. In this instance I think the wrong type of tool is being looked at, however.
My summons were already useless in PvP. One WoF and I'm toast. I don't even bother wasting those precious seconds to do Elemental Swarm most of the time because I don't want to waste MORE seconds drinking a Remove Blindness pot while getting smacked. Especially as a Totem, where my choices are 'shift and maybe live' or 'risk another spell and go down in three hits'. I've had to figure out work-arounds to essentially confuse the person I'm fighting to even stand a chance and fight as though I'm a mundane relying on potions when shifted since my summons aren't gonna help me.

And now they've been... lessened significantly, particularly for more difficult PvE areas where I'm able to get time to buff them beforehand. I'll give it the good ol' college try, of course, but being less capable in PvE when summoners are already hit hard in PvP is a little disheartening.

I hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory, or rude to the team. I mean it with the greatest respect. I don't want to have to min/max any class for PvE. I just want to go kill things, usually on my own since I prefer to move at my own pace. I understand the necessity and drive for grouping up and making content much harder for runic dungeons- but outside of that, I don't quite understand the focus on summons and how powerful they are given some of the other much more notorious and powerful classes available.

I actually kind of get the idea for totem druid both in PVE or PVP.
Losing mass zoo spells means they have reduced 3AB and 3AC with a little more HP because you can't slap arcane sequencer on them now but having to use druidic sequencer instead.
It's especially prevalent on elemental swarm because they're elder elementals and every bit of AC and AB matters.
This nerf hits the druid where it hurts although not as much compared to other summons / summoner classes.
And to top it off, there's no more mass haste before the epic fight against bosses...
That's chipping away 7 AC.

Arcane sequencer grants +3AC shield and +4mage armor with concealment
Druidic sequencer grants +4AC Natural with max cat's grace @ +5 and bull strength, often resulting in +6AC or +7AC to contra the Arcane sequencer, with no concealment though.

The pain inflicted on different class weighs differently and i'm feeling your pain there as a druid class.

Edit : On the below post on the unwarded saves, this is only possible to be achieved to include these -

1) Base saving throws if you're say, a Fighter
Fort 12, Reflex 6, Will 6
Epic level of 10 grants +5 saving throws resulting in
Fort 17, Reflex 11, Will 11

2) 10 pieces of equipment ( Boot, Gloves, Belt, Cloak, 2x Ring, Amulet, Helmet, Armor and Perhaps a shield ) = +10 saving throws

Assuming that you're a strength warrior, your dex is somewhere between 12 - 14 when buffed with Cat's Grace (+2Reflex)
Assuming that you're High Con @ 18 + 12(soft) = (+10Fort)
Assuming that you're 14 Wisdom when buffed with Owl's Wisdom (+2Will)

That's a total of -
37 Fort
23 Reflex
23 Will

This is possible to be further enhanced with magic circle of alignment -
+4 Uni saves with against good and evil
+1 with Aid potion
+2 with good hope

Buffed Saving throw :
47 Fort ( 55 ) Spellcraft
30 Reflex ( 38 ) Spellcraft
30 Will ( 38 ) Spellcraft

The above should be the limit or close to, for most strength warrior that does not dip into Divine's Grace or Dark Blessing. It's not including Spellcraft which most should have up to 40 minimum (+8 against spell)

The above is possible with maximum masterworked equipments @ end tier build.
If you're a paladin, monk or war priest? It'll only be higher and not lower.
And it's not including if, they choose to go Dex warrior ( rogue )

Wizard sure, is never about DCs spell because -
Mords do not need DC.
IGMS do not need DC.
Incinerate do not need DC.
Greater Sanctuary do not need DC nor Timestop.
Grease spell with Entangle after breached do not need DC ( Be amazed at how often you can roll a 1 )

Right, i'm off topic again.

[Naghast]

Honestly, i would rather there be just vanilla stats and Wizards, Sorcerer or Clerics just buff them up however they can.
Well, it'll be just even more crappy than the current 'nerfed' one.

As for DCs spell and what nonsense it was.

A good wizard begins either with Greater Sanctuary or Timestop, whichever you think is good and position yourself based on terrain. Spam a single mord, toss a hellball, follow by another mord and drop your BIG HITBOX Dragon knight...tbh, it's harder to kill you than you think is possible if you even know what i'm writing here.

Most of the DCs boost comes from Magic alignment, Good hope, Bless, Prayer and Animal buffs.
2 Mords are super devastating on a pure class wizard really. It literally remove a HUGE chunk of saving throws.

It was never about Conduit nor other nonsense written here. None of it even affect anything other than PVE.

In case that most are not aware, you'll need a minimum of 60AC for basic epic dungeon. Minimum of 65AC for moderate - difficult epic dungeon and probably 70AC for High end epic dungeon.
Most often, High AC can be achievable by compensating on LOW AB which is turning on Improved expertise. The problem is that most str build classes cannot hit 65AC even with improved expertise and the Dex build are just weak at 1 on 1 without their sneak attack. Meaning to say, you'll still need someone and SOLO is not quite possible...

Of course again, Spellsword is an abomination that is not restricted to the above.

My unwarded saves are 36/36/38.

[-XXX-]

I think this announcement came 3 weeks too early, lol

Just because Defilers happen to have summons out while they are roflstomping their way through the PvE content doesn't mean summons are the problem.

Divorcing mass haste and mass zoo from summons not only hurts wiz/sorc the most, but makes these classes rather pointless.

Absence of haste AC buff makes the AC of necro summons not good enough, even after stone bones+sequencer AND ESF:necro most of them will cap out somewhere between 42-48 AC

Absence of mass zoo pushes their max AB below 38, so...
PvE - will only ever hit endgame bosses on nat 20s
PvP - "i can prolly ignore this if I have AC 56+" territory = why even bother with WoF at this point?

All of this while Ab 50+ AC 60+ melee builds reign unchecked through both PvP and PvE

The loss of haste APR speaks for itself - this alone cleaves the summon efficiency by half.

[AstralUniverse]

I've been saying for ****ing years that summons should be very tanky and very slow to kill things, this way they can help a mage survive in pve, without being a full replacement to an actual character in the party.

Its really not that hard to do that, you just give the summons more resistances and lower their damage.

Instead, you've been doing all of these backflip shenanigans in an attempt to balance............. I dont even know what you're trying to balance here. Summoners are not the issue. Spellswords solo the content much more effortlessly, so does a paladin, and especially weapon ma---- what about freaking Defiler???

Right now I just dont have any faith that the team knows what they're doing about summons at all and this thread is useless if you're going to ignore the players providing feedback... like last time...

[AnselHoenheim]

I've been reading a lot of this posts and I still don't get what is the real reason of, not literally but almost, destroying summoning for clearing PvE content as it is? Is it incentivizing group playing? Making pve harder? Creating a more difficult experience to halve levelling characters at level 30 too easily? Because if this is the attempt...

Then this update is useless and I will tell you why, two classes: Defiler, and Spellsword, The first is known to have a high refund for harm, and able to cast it several times in middle of a dungeon, because of most of the pve content has no negative energy protection, and for those who are NEP protected, it is undead, and mass heal is saying hi, hello, good morning, harming becomes any pve content clearing a piece of cake and a half, yes, summons OP? I doubt they even need one and it only helps them do the things faster.

Number two, is the usual suspect, Spellsword. This recking machine has been on the top of the pve wave for a few months and it's...just too good, able to create instant attacks that deal high amounts of damage, access to the proper wizard spellbook, which a bit more difficulty but that really does not affect them, and being able to summon still creatures with a sequencer just because why not.

Now the route would be AGAIN nerfing more classes, for AGAIN making everything harder? No. I think the classes that has been hit so much with this update (Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid, or Shaman), they need something else, of course I am not the brightest mind of all times and I have no magical wand that would say: "TADDA FIXED", so I have no idea of what could be a good incentivizing for those classes to actually feel relevant in clearing pve content regarding other classes that could do way better, that's something the devs can figure out, and way better than I can.

In pvp, however, I am here standing and giving an applause, yes, this was needed, the pressure capable that gate were able to do it was unbalanced, and before the WoF tribe comes saying: "BUT WOF WOULD SEND THEM TO THE ABYSS", I must remind, that the summons from gate do have SR, and most important either, they are scrollable, so using these summons were an usual practice in pvp, so even if your fellow WoF average user cast it and they are lucky enough to remove the Deva/Devil/Demon, get ready for a second, or a third, or maybe a fourth depending of builds, circunstances, etcetera, and pray the RNG gods you are not failing the SR check, cause those summons could still give you a bad time, even in the shortage of time WoF is deployed a second time.

Now, I am getting tired of reading my own post (Paraphrasing Gale here), and I'm bringing up a conclussion of this post, this is a good approach, but it has created a larger gap between classes in pve content in terms of adaptability, entertainment and usefulness in a party, or in solo, because, seriously, it is not a meme that sorcerers are basically mass haste bots in any party composition, even at level 30.

Good morning, good evening and good night, and I hope the team still kicks up with good content as they usually do.