Arelith

Though I do actually think language fluency is overrated. Who actually denies you RP opportunities if you don't speak the proper language? Almost everyone will be all too happy to speak in common with you. The one language you need to know if you don't want to die in certain places is Undercommon and that's fairly easy to pick up. Anyone worth spying on will do their secret meeting behind closed doors in a scry-warded location anyway. Feels like 90% of the time when people speak in a language they didn't get through their race/background, it's for the sole purpose of bragging.

Yes. Languages are a joke. Most of the time it's speaking racial languages where appropriate, or someone speaking 17 different languages to show off.

LM getting extra languages is hardly broken.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Loremasters are to Arelith what Planeswalkers are to Magic the Gathering, they completely changed the game and not for the best. I think the best idea so far is to draw it out, make go up to level 10 instead of level 5 and spread out those cookies, what you get for a 5 level investment is just too much. Is 5 levels of Invisible Blade that good? How about 5 levels of Cavalier, does that compare?

I don't understand how anyone could argue against Loremaster getting a nerf, but then I remember how popular the class is, and the people that don't want change are often the people benefitting from it.

This is so dramatic, lol.

5 levels of Cavalier actually does compare, believe it or not. In fact, you only need to go 4 levels to get some pretty good benefits. And so does something like WM for the 5 level comparison.

Loremaster is ultimately a class that has been taken more for flavor, rp and QOL, rather than strict mechanical power. The far more popular build has been 25 wizard 5 LM, despite being a strictly worse version for PVP.

With the exception of fighter/wm/lm, it's almost always pointlessly shoehorned into builds for QOL goodies, and often not the best option. Paladin/LM is strictly worse to Paladin/Bard. Fighter/BG/LM is worse than the WM variant. Putting it into almost any caster build(with the exception of wizard now) makes it worse. So on and so forth.

Acting like it "completely changed the landscape of the game" is not based in reality at all.

Changing it to a 10 level class would kill it overnight. Martials would not take it because it would ruin their BAB, and casters wouldn't take because they can't be an epic caster with it.

I'll never NOT enjoy the sight of a WM dispelling my summons only to whip out a gate scroll, which was then followed by an in your face beat down as I try to recast.

This isn't even a LM problem. Anyone with 35 UMD can do this. Anyone with 80 lore can do this. Many builds can gear for 80 lore without being LMs.

I think Fighter and Swashbuckler are the only classes that can fit in LM without really giving up something. Though amusingly a pure level 30 Fighter can easily fit in ESF:Lore and gets more AB and AC than a Fighter/LM. And in the case of the dreaded Fighter/WM/LM, it's the WM where the majority of the power is coming from.

The problem with the current display of player counts is that you can’t really tell how the LM is combined with other classes. I would really like to see the old display where all class combinations are listed with the numbers of characters. This would also allow to see how much LM is used for RP flavor and how much for mechanical benefits in PVP. Then it would make sense to have this discussion.

Keep in mind that 16 INT can be very taxing for melee builds that want to invest into Str, Con, DEX or Cha. Besides this, with classes like Paladin and SS running around, I don’t have the feeling that LM dips cause a lot of imbalance.

Kythana wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm

I'll never NOT enjoy the sight of a WM dispelling my summons only to whip out a gate scroll, which was then followed by an in your face beat down as I try to recast.

This isn't even a LM problem. Anyone with 35 UMD can do this. Anyone with 80 lore can do this. Many builds can gear for 80 lore without being LMs.

No they cannot.
Using books or scrolls without LM your Mords have CL 17, which has 0% chance to dispel anything at CL 26+.
Using Mords scrolls with LM5 you have CL22, which has 5% chance to dispel at CL30.

This is the problem and it is solely an LM problem. No one else with access to Mords through items can do this, only Loremaster. No other mundane can dispel my CL 30 Conduit, or haste with mords. But Loremaster can.

Out of all the things being mentioned in this thead this is the most problematic mechanically. The rest is problematic when it comes to QoL and RP cookies, but this actually has mechanical impact.

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 4:22 pm

The problem with the current display of player counts is that you can’t really tell how the LM is combined with other classes. I would really like to see the old display where all class combinations are listed with the numbers of characters. This would also allow to see how much LM is used for RP flavor and how much for mechanical benefits in PVP. Then it would make sense to have this discussion.

Let's look at the numbers then.

What I did here was sort the class names in ascending order for each level 30 character (which may result in dip classes like Bard appearing first in the above table even though they only have 3 levels, but this step was needed to ensure an accurate grouping). I then combined the result into one string, grouped the data by that and counted the number of rows in each group. For brevity, I also trimmed the lower end of the chart, as there are plenty of class combinations that only exist once or twice. They don't really seem relevant for the ongoing discussion.

Edit: Updated to include dual-class builds that got removed due to a code error.

Numbers were never relevant, they typically aren't for mechanical discussions.

There were less people playing Plantshape shifters and they still got rightfully nerfed, because they were just too much.

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:43 pm

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 4:22 pm

The problem with the current display of player counts is that you can’t really tell how the LM is combined with other classes. I would really like to see the old display where all class combinations are listed with the numbers of characters. This would also allow to see how much LM is used for RP flavor and how much for mechanical benefits in PVP. Then it would make sense to have this discussion.

Let's look at the numbers then.

What I did here was sort the class names in ascending order for each level 30 character (which may result in dip classes like Bard appearing first in the above table even though they only have 3 levels, but this step was needed to ensure an accurate grouping). I then combined the result into one string, grouped the data by that and counted the number of rows in each group. For brevity, I also trimmed the lower end of the chart, as there are plenty of class combinations that only exist once or twice. They don't really seem relevant for the ongoing discussion.

For my own curiosity, I only see here the three class builds but know there are some 25 bard 5 LM builds out there. Do the 2 class builds not show up in this query?

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:43 pm

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 4:22 pm

The problem with the current display of player counts is that you can’t really tell how the LM is combined with other classes. I would really like to see the old display where all class combinations are listed with the numbers of characters. This would also allow to see how much LM is used for RP flavor and how much for mechanical benefits in PVP. Then it would make sense to have this discussion.

Let's look at the numbers then.

What I did here was sort the class names in ascending order for each level 30 character (which may result in dip classes like Bard appearing first in the above table even though they only have 3 levels, but this step was needed to ensure an accurate grouping). I then combined the result into one string, grouped the data by that and counted the number of rows in each group. For brevity, I also trimmed the lower end of the chart, as there are plenty of class combinations that only exist once or twice. They don't really seem relevant for the ongoing discussion.

Point taken. Then there are too many WM/LMs out there. Clearly not for RP favor.
Then it may be better to nerf that particular combination than breaking LM for all other combos?

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:55 pm

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:43 pm

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 4:22 pm

The problem with the current display of player counts is that you can’t really tell how the LM is combined with other classes. I would really like to see the old display where all class combinations are listed with the numbers of characters. This would also allow to see how much LM is used for RP flavor and how much for mechanical benefits in PVP. Then it would make sense to have this discussion.

Let's look at the numbers then.

What I did here was sort the class names in ascending order for each level 30 character (which may result in dip classes like Bard appearing first in the above table even though they only have 3 levels, but this step was needed to ensure an accurate grouping). I then combined the result into one string, grouped the data by that and counted the number of rows in each group. For brevity, I also trimmed the lower end of the chart, as there are plenty of class combinations that only exist once or twice. They don't really seem relevant for the ongoing discussion.

Point taken. Then there are too many WM/LMs out there. Clearly not for RP favor.
Then it may be better to nerf that particular combination than breaking LM for all other combos?

Wow, thats not a lot of IB/Rogue/LMs! I play one of em! Lol.

My Druid/LM combo didn't even make the list!

Granted, my combination of classes makes me arguably much worse in PvE/PvP than a Rogue or Fighter dip or even pure-Druid would. I adore the flavour and RP of a Loremaster, especially given I lean into scholar RP. Of course there are those who use LM for mechanical/build advantage, though I'd argue that's the minority given how easy it is to get the standard Lore/UMD Skills up to par. Upping it to 10 levels would absolutely devastate any build that is not purely utility, more like a commoner with magic tricks.

Also, please don't take my languages away. They don't effect how well I can fight things and I like them ;-;

Svrtr wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:49 pm

For my own curiosity, I only see here the three class builds but know there are some 25 bard 5 LM builds out there. Do the 2 class builds not show up in this query?

Pretty sure 25 fighter 5 lm and 25 rogue 5 lm are builds some people play too, especially fighter/lm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:40 pm

Kythana wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm

I'll never NOT enjoy the sight of a WM dispelling my summons only to whip out a gate scroll, which was then followed by an in your face beat down as I try to recast.

This isn't even a LM problem. Anyone with 35 UMD can do this. Anyone with 80 lore can do this. Many builds can gear for 80 lore without being LMs.

No they cannot.
Using books or scrolls without LM your Mords have CL 17, which has 0% chance to dispel anything at CL 26+.
Using Mords scrolls with LM5 you have CL22, which has 5% chance to dispel at CL30.

This is the problem and it is solely an LM problem. No one else with access to Mords through items can do this, only Loremaster. No other mundane can dispel my CL 30 Conduit, or haste with mords. But Loremaster can.

Out of all the things being mentioned in this thead this is the most problematic mechanically. The rest is problematic when it comes to QoL and RP cookies, but this actually has mechanical impact.

Um. Are you not aware of Word of Faith? Conduit has no SR. Anyone can remove it. I feel like you completely missed the context of what I replied to.

"dispelling my summons" not dispelling in general.

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

LurkingShadow wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 6:06 pm

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:55 pm

Kalopsia wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:43 pm

Let's look at the numbers then.

What I did here was sort the class names in ascending order for each level 30 character (which may result in dip classes like Bard appearing first in the above table even though they only have 3 levels, but this step was needed to ensure an accurate grouping). I then combined the result into one string, grouped the data by that and counted the number of rows in each group. For brevity, I also trimmed the lower end of the chart, as there are plenty of class combinations that only exist once or twice. They don't really seem relevant for the ongoing discussion.

Point taken. Then there are too many WM/LMs out there. Clearly not for RP favor.
Then it may be better to nerf that particular combination than breaking LM for all other combos?

Wow, thats not a lot of IB/Rogue/LMs! I play one of em! Lol.

Would Rogue / SD / IB be better?

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 7:27 pm

I am aware that WoF works, but it is more than than.
Action economy. You will always want to breach, if you open with Mords and it dispels Planar Conduit then you no longer need to WoF, that's a round saved.

It's a 5% chance to dispel at scroll speed cost versus a 100% chance to remove summons at item cast cost(Which means you can fit in your haste potion too), and you want them removed sooner rather than later. The scariest part of fighting a caster is when conduit is up. Why would you want to delay that and potentially eat a bunch of damage while you're also letting them freecast on you?

The action economy argument doesn't even make sense here. Going for the hail mary dispel is an unreliable tactic. It's only nice to have when you want to mords to lower SR/breach, and occasionally get lucky.

Kythana wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 7:06 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:40 pm

Kythana wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 3:43 pm

This isn't even a LM problem. Anyone with 35 UMD can do this. Anyone with 80 lore can do this. Many builds can gear for 80 lore without being LMs.

No they cannot.
Using books or scrolls without LM your Mords have CL 17, which has 0% chance to dispel anything at CL 26+.
Using Mords scrolls with LM5 you have CL22, which has 5% chance to dispel at CL30.

This is the problem and it is solely an LM problem. No one else with access to Mords through items can do this, only Loremaster. No other mundane can dispel my CL 30 Conduit, or haste with mords. But Loremaster can.

Out of all the things being mentioned in this thead this is the most problematic mechanically. The rest is problematic when it comes to QoL and RP cookies, but this actually has mechanical impact.

Um. Are you not aware of Word of Faith? Conduit has no SR. Anyone can remove it. I feel like you completely missed the context of what I replied to.

"dispelling my summons" not dispelling in general.

Let's not forget everyones favorite -ward teleport ability. This skill is clearly taught to every line infantryman in any noble lords army as part of their standard kit bag to ensure non can escape. Right next to their scroll and item collection worth hundreds or thousands of coin. That or perhaps they spent a few extra years in study under a mage to learn the art of divination using that useful -scry skill all aspiring city guard commanders should know to seek out those pesky exiles.

Fun poking aside, the LM/Fighter combo creates this wierd beast of a warrior with the talents of a mage leading one to ask why even have a mage when a common soldier can PVP far better then they ever could.

Edens_Fall wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 7:46 pm

LurkingShadow wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 6:06 pm

helitron wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:55 pm

Point taken. Then there are too many WM/LMs out there. Clearly not for RP favor.
Then it may be better to nerf that particular combination than breaking LM for all other combos?

Wow, thats not a lot of IB/Rogue/LMs! I play one of em! Lol.

Would Rogue / SD / IB be better?

I honestly have no clue. All I know is that peopel think IB is underwhelming.

guess thats why its not played much.

Let's not forget everyones favorite -ward teleport ability. This skill is clearly taught to every line infantryman in any noble lords army as part of their standard kit bag to ensure non can escape. Right next to their scroll and item collection worth hundreds or thousands of coin. That or perhaps they spent a few extra years in study under a mage to learn the art of divination using that useful -scry skill all aspiring city guard commanders should know to seek out those pesky exiles.

I do agree with this. I think it's very silly to have bob the fighter who "read a book once" be able to scry with the same potential as an epic level non diviner wizard.

It's the one aspect that I'd want tuned down.

Isn't the entire flavour of LM that you aren't just a joe schmoe who read a book and are in fact a fairly well read and capable person who is able to tap into these abilities at a cost?

Svrtr wrote: ↑

Mon May 13, 2024 5:49 pm

For my own curiosity, I only see here the three class builds but know there are some 25 bard 5 LM builds out there. Do the 2 class builds not show up in this query?

Good catch. The list was indeed missing two-class builds due to an error in my name cleanup logic.
I've updated my original post with the updated list.

Maybe loremaster ought to only allow scry, ward etc if you have greater spell focus in that school. That would allow bards and other half-casters to get the special abilities they normally wouldn't with some feat investment but not allow martials-only to do it unless they dipped another class to open up spell focuses (meaning no scrying and warding fighter/wm/loremasters for sure)

I think I'm generally pretty happy if a martial spends their time reading Mords scrolls to dispel me with a 5% chance instead of actually beating me down in melee. Sure, once in a while you get REALLY unlucky and they hit your haste, but they still spent an entire round to get rid of that then.

Wow! Looking at the updated list, we have:

19 Wizard/Loremaster
18 Cleric/Loremaster

Neither of these are power builds at all. Seems to me there is a pretty healthy split of caster LM for flavor and RP and martial WM for power. (Which can also be for RP too, mind you. The warrior scholar is a fun archetype to play out.)

Going back to the original point, it's that LM are both a strong mechanical class, and by far the best class for many and unique RP tools.