The Big UMD Change Thread

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

hey isn't this the path Amia went down

and then it died

[Basementfellow]

I have to say that you seem to have a lot of implicit assumptions when discussing this, Dr. B.

if the people of France could legally vote to vandalize or destroy the Mona Lisa,
it does not follow from this that they wouldn't be acting wrongly in doing so

Your language here means that the initial assumption is that they ARE acting wrongly, and it does not follow from a democratic vote (hypothetically) that they would NOT be acting wrongly.

You need to -demonstrate- why this is wrong, not take it as assumption.

Quite on the contrary, let's extend this to a global vote - if the entire population of humanity who even knew that the Mona Lisa existed, voted in a majority to destroy it for some reason, that means that the desire of the most people this matter even is known to would be to destroy it. Given that a piece of art like this has no value other than in the perceptions of people who look upon it and think "I like this," it would seem that in this scenario there's literally no reason to suggest they've done anything wrong, so far as has been demonstrated.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it would be morally correct to destroy a one-of-a-kind piece of human history just because we felt like it lmao

[Adam Antium]

The conversation is being continued in PM's, sorry.

[Nitro]

Honestly, just slash the lore requirements in half. 80 is a ridiculous investment, and 40 is still a hefty investment, either in gear power or skill ranks invested. And you still need to get ranks in UMD if you also want access to wands so mundanes would end up needing to spend 3x as many skill points for the same functionality of old without it being so extreme to reach.

[Bibliophile]

After finding the time to read the update many times, as that is what it takes for me to comprehend such things when it is writing only, and wade through 11 pages of comments in just this thread only, it sounds like of all the update only two points keep being brought up though one less than the other.

First would be the knockdown change. I read it and thought nothing of it, 18 seconds seems short. But ones thinking about it? That is really going to hurt more specifically stealth characters in pve. Perhaps it could be considered in the days to come, if it does turn out to cause issues, that it maybe be every other round you're able to use it.

Second would be the change effecting scrolls and lore. I again get why it was done but hitting 80 lore is next to impossible. You are already asking now for the same 15 point dump into umd and now points spent to lore that some wouldn't even do and the ones that do don't typically go past, lets say 20 for identifying items. So maybe consider dropping the 80 for lvl 9 scrolls down to 50? That is asking an additional 13 point dump to a skill and taking up precious slots on your enchanted gear to work your way up to that 50 just so you can get scrolls. They would still be reachable with effort but they will still be making a sacrifice.

[n00bdragon]

I think this topic is quickly exhausting its usefulness and I'm more than a little concerned by the tone of Irongron's recent posts that the man might be under just a wee bit too much stress at the moment. Let's all consider the following truths:

1. Yes, the update has problems. They need to be addressed. The focus should always be not on assigning blame for the problems but on fixing them. In this case, in order to fix them, there needs to be a dev lead who isn't a few snarky posts from pulling the plug. The problem(s) I think has been duly identified and at this point it's just outrage posts.

2. Aside from people being (rightfully) worried and afraid for the future, the game is, at it core, still functional in the sense that you can make a character and go into dungeons and level up and what not. The scope of this issue, while critical to the long term health of the server and deeply influencing what sort of characters people decide to play and how they decide to play them, is NOT critical to the daily health of the server. Many players never experience the sorts of situations this issue is meaningful to and most of the players this is meaningful to do not experience these situations on a daily basis. In other words, it is possible for life to go on without fixing this change at least for a little while. If everyone were to take a gentleman's agreement to not engage in any dramatic storyline-influencing PvP for a few days before its addressed it would be as if nothing happened.

3. Irongron, I don't know you personally, but based on the temperament of many of your posts and understanding the situation where you have approximately a hundred people jumping down your throat constantly these last few days over something you did in a computer game, I am guessing you are probably not in any sort of state to be making rational decisions.

Why not close this topic and take a couple days break or something? Clear your head. Come back in 48 hours. It'll be the weekend by that time and then start sorting through your options and making a decision on where to go from here. There's a lot of good stuff here in this topic (a lot of bad stuff too, but that's the nature of feedback) and I'm sure when you come at it fresh and not feeling like you're under siege you'll make the best choices.

[Anatida]

There is a skill titled "Unavailable" lingering in the skills selection.

i think it's intention is to show what skills you can't take. since on a fighter level both UMD and Unavailable share the same grey color. (to show you can't take it at this level). not completely sure tho. if it is so.. then a change to a red color would be more suited.

This is intentional and due to the way the game engine works. If the slot for that particular skill had simply been deleted, then over half of the skills would have changed reference numbers and then you would really have problems.

So you have skill 1, skill 2, skill 3 etc. You delete skill 2. Now skill 3 moves up to the skill 2 slot and every skill that follows moves up the list.

The compromise was to rename the skill and make it so it is not selectable for now. The slot can then be reused later for a NEW skill.

[NauVaseline]

hey isn't this the path Amia went down

and then it died

It sure is

[MissEvelyn]

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Well put and fair enough. To address your point about mundanes vs magicals, wouldn't you say the argument that PCs are supposed to be unique and powerful in a world of common and not-so-unique NPCs holds up to this?

Naturally, mundane classes should be more powerful than your common NPC guard, but throughout most of D&D we see caster classes always having more toys to play with. Taking scrolls away from mundanes doesn't completely nullify them, unless I'm missing something here. I see lots of bold statements about how this mundane class feature (like Knockdown) is now "useless", but I've yet to see the proof in game.

Maybe we'll see level 3 Wizard dips now

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

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Maybe we'll see level 3 Wizard dips now

Arcane Archer with wizard levels just became meta. Actaully no, in the updates section also includes that casters are restricted how high a scroll they can used depending on their own level and casting stat.

[Chosen Son]

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Well put and fair enough. To address your point about mundanes vs magicals, wouldn't you say the argument that PCs are supposed to be unique and powerful in a world of common and not-so-unique NPCs holds up to this?

Naturally, mundane classes should be more powerful than your common NPC guard, but throughout most of D&D we see caster classes always having more toys to play with. Taking scrolls away from mundanes doesn't completely nullify them, unless I'm missing something here. I see lots of bold statements about how this mundane class feature (like Knockdown) is now "useless", but I've yet to see the proof in game.

Maybe we'll see level 3 Wizard dips now

As far as pve goes this does not change much. That part of the game is still fundamentally the same. The imbalance comes in pvp, where mundane classes need tools like knockdown, and scrolls to have options other then running away or dying from casters.

If you cannot knockdown spam a mage to prevent them running, or kill them during the span of one kd (hard with them having -pray) they can simply stand up after you kd them, pray away the damage, and greater sanctuary away.

Without spells that can dig deep into the breach list, you will also burn rounds of time getting rid of their damage shields, so you can attack them to begin with without dying yourself from the damage.

And without spells like mord to nuke 10 SR off a dragon before you word of faith it away, you will be facing a summon performing on par almost to a wm while eating igms, dispels, and disables from the mundane.

Divine casters are not near as vulnarable. They often have saves high enough to eat all the dc spells cast at them, and in some builds, igms immunity too, giving them strong protection against alot of what a mage can throw at them. The dragon is still brutal, but a cleric does not need mord to deal with it, as they are casting at cl 23 or 27 compared to the cl 13 of a word of faith scroll, and only need a greater spell breach to hit 5 sr off the summon to be guaranteed to land the wof and deal with the summon.

The reason people treat this as such an existential threat to non casters is that they have had most of the essential counter play to turn an already challenging matchup, into an impossible one. Even divine casters that are not clerics suffer to an extent, despite being considerably better off then mundanes.

Losing them one at a time, or gradually as things are balanced would have been one thing, but the update pulled the rug out from underneath them, with precious little real and sustainable options available to them.

All this wont probobly directly effect alot of players who are not very involved in pvp, but it will indirectly involve them with the update having redistributed who can, and to what extent they can, employ hard power in settlement and personal rp. The existance of hard power (Most commonly ability to effectively pvp, and situationally use settlement powers to enforce consequences like eviction or exile.) on both sides of a conflict is what creates room for, and often nessecitates soft power (intrigue, spying, manipulation, bargaining, blackmail, seduction) because enough capacity for hard power exists on both sides of the conflict to make direct confrontation difficult, costly or risky.

Balance between the classes also protects those with no interest in mechanical matters, because if settlements have nessecary mechanical power backing them, it creates an aegis for those attached to it that have no such interest or concerns.

A final consideration is that while people will still continue to play non casters because they enjoy playing them, meaning you wont have an island infested with wizard or spellswords, you also dont need to have an overwhelming number of a certain class to imbalance things. Especially when it is the more mechanically minded players, the ones most often involved in conflict rp that are likely to move on to play the more powerful classes.

I hope this helped shed some light on why alot of players are taking this very seriously.

[susitsu]

You can’t even knockdown any properly built level 30 caster due to discipline availability. Oh, and hey, they can all make their own gear without enchantment. The massive irony there is that...the imbalance begins before PvP and has been a sustained trend.

My honest response at this point is I can’t deal with this. I’ve dumped like over thirty hours per character into this server due to the ridiculous leveling pace, and half the reason for me to make any character is the build and how I want to do mechanics (PvE and PvP, PvP being a highly important vehicle for conflict roleplay that I happen to enjoy, seeing as this is a video game,) and I have zero drive to do anything but I guess meme on people with wizards. And FYI, it’s not just summons, it’s not just the maximized igms, it’s also getting to play rock paper taste this aoe fort save local dex builds, and reflex saves for all the rest of the universe.

I really just don’t want to deal with this. The subtle irony of crashing the scroll market is that it’s basically a debuff to wizards.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Two really controversial ideas:

Get rid of skill dumps and faith boons.

The fact that gods intervening, something not supposed to be in a mortal's control, is literslly integrated into meta or crafting and PvP is, in my opinion, a poor taste mechanic

No skill dumps would also make casters a lot more vulnerable.

But i know that mighr be extreme

[TimeAdept]

Or, no, we don't, and try to preserve what's left of the balance we once had.

[Aren]

Or, no, we don't, and try to preserve what's left of the balance we once had.

+1.

[Nitro]

Two really controversial ideas:

Get rid of skill dumps and faith boons.

The fact that gods intervening, something not supposed to be in a mortal's control, is literslly integrated into meta or crafting and PvP is, in my opinion, a poor taste mechanic

No skill dumps would also make casters a lot more vulnerable.

But i know that mighr be extreme

I don't think you realize, but no skill dumps would make casters even stronger. It would mean that spellcraft saves disappear for most mundanes. What little wand access there was from UMD disappears from most mundanes, and discipline disappears from some DEX'ers. It would make casters and bards a lot stronger because everyone else gets weaker than they do.

[Huschpfusch]

I dont think the update is nearly as awful as some claim. Rather, I have the impression, this probably is one of many changes to coax even powergamers into more rp-heavy playstyle.

Consider:
If I remember correctly, it says somewhere on the Arelith wiki somewhere that this is a server where people exchange stories = it's a roleplay server.
And skill descriptions taken from the player's handbook 3.5 p.78 & 85:
Knowledge "Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline. Below are listed typical fields of study. With your DM's approval, you can invent new areas of knowledge."
UMD "Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate." ..."emulate quality"...

On a declared story server loreskill (knowledge skills) and its many applications is potentally more powerful than the mere emulate-activation of magic items. This now is represented mechanically also a little more on Arelith by the switch from UMD to Lore for scroll use (at least - maybe other aspects of UMD will follow?)

Lore is open to all classes.
Lore is the NWN equivalent of the player handbook's INFINITE number of seperate knowledge skills.
Lore is knowledge. Knowledge is power.
It helps identify items on the spot.
And if I remember correctly lore skill on Arelith also increases loot drop quality and/or quantity(!)
And since no need to take UMD class for magic tricks that spot can be used to take another class.

The lore numbers required may be high/too high, but numbers can be adjusted with further updates.
Or the Arelith staff could introduce new ways of gaining permanent increase to (lore)skill with updates.
And those rod things are probably just the first few new items we see. All sorts of items can be introduced or taken from the game at any time! (e.g. there could be a weapon that unsummons creatures, rips off buffs on hit, or a shield/helmet that unsommons if defending PC gets hit). And item-based-balancing is maybe easier and faster than fumbling class features for balance all the time. And in the future the characters affected by itembalancing dont need to relevel they just are inconvenienced to get new gear by dungeoneering or buying from others, either one the possible source of new rp scenes unlike mere mechanical relevels in the starting area.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I dont think the update is nearly as awful as some claim. Rather, I have the impression, this probably is one of many changes to coax even powergamers into more rp-heavy playstyle.

I think I might've covered the manner in which poor balance negatively impacts the roleplay environment.

If I was unclear, I could recap.

Certain playstyles are strongly associated with certain roleplay preoccupations. For example wizards, collectively, will have a generally academic outlook, and those characters will push for policies enacted by in-rp institutions and governments that promote this outlook.

Monks, by virtue of their class being what it is, are required to be lawful in alignment, and thus will actively persue lawfulpolicies if they are in a position of in-rp authority and power.

Blackguards are by necessity evil, and will therefore push for evil policies when they are in power.

Paladins are lawful good, and therefore will push for lawful good agendas and policies to be realised.


If we offer ANY of these an easier time than the others in playing the game, or in using "hard power", or achieving level 30, or better quality of life, then you will see the roleplay landscape also being slanted in the direction of whatever build archetype the current balance favours.

In short, if we make rangers overpowered, then we would see a tendency towards "be nice to nature" roleplay politics and positions from a larger portion of the playerbase, and those policies and positions being easier to enforce.

Game balance = RP balance.

If you balance the game mechanically, the you see a wider variety of roleplay styles, interests, alignments and attitudes appearing in player characters.



This most recent update strongly skews the balance in favour of (primarily) spellcaster characters, and against (primarily) mundane and melee characters... And this is odd, because prior to the change, the game was already skewed in favour of (primarily) spellcasters.

Roleplayers should ALL push for better mechanical balance, for the health of their roleplay environment. Do not fall into the trap of believing that because someone is concerned about balance, or mechanics, or they know how to build characters to be effective, that they are inferior roleplayers or uninterested in roleplay. That is simply not true. A great many of the best "builders" I know here and many of the people who are most mechanically savvy and capable in pvp, are also some of the finest storytellers the server knows. Treating people as villains when they are very far from that is a dangerous game to play and runs the risk of being very upsetting to a number of pretty much blameless individuals.

[susitsu]

I dont think the update is nearly as awful as some claim. Rather, I have the impression, this probably is one of many changes to coax even powergamers into more rp-heavy playstyle.

No, people will be leaving for a place where they can use scrolls and not be bored of their character.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Two really controversial ideas:

Get rid of skill dumps and faith boons.

The fact that gods intervening, something not supposed to be in a mortal's control, is literslly integrated into meta or crafting and PvP is, in my opinion, a poor taste mechanic

No skill dumps would also make casters a lot more vulnerable.

But i know that mighr be extreme

I don't think you realize, but no skill dumps would make casters even stronger. It would mean that spellcraft saves disappear for most mundanes. What little wand access there was from UMD disappears from most mundanes, and discipline disappears from some DEX'ers. It would make casters and bards a lot stronger because everyone else gets weaker than they do.

A pure fighter with equip ment/ feats etc can achieve saves that shrug off most dcs easily.

Umd only needs a mod of 15, when i suggested no skill dump, i meant no saving points. Not stopping people from putting all their points from a single level up. So rather thsn just 3 rogue levels they might have 4 or 5 for the extra skill points. Casters could still do this with bard but would have to cross class discipline before bard and or take more bard levels which would lower their caster level which would make things with sr more dangerous to them.

Spell craft for plus saves was always bonkers imo but i understsnd if it needs to stay.

*edit*

Id like to potentially retract my statements. Through cross skillijg and then discipline 4 bard levels without saving points they might be abke to max out disicipline still due to high int.

Youd have to can disicipline and return 3.x combat maneuvers. Again that's a headaxhe od its own with more issues.

[Huschpfusch]

Game balance = RP balance.

If you balance the game mechanically, the you see a wider variety of roleplay styles, interests, alignments and attitudes appearing in player characters.

This most recent update strongly skews the balance in favour of (primarily) spellcaster characters, and against (primarily) mundane and melee characters... And this is odd, because prior to the change, the game was already skewed in favour of (primarily) spellcasters.

Roleplayers should ALL push for better mechanical balance, for the health of their roleplay environment. Do not fall into the trap of believing that because someone is concerned about balance, or mechanics, or they know how to build characters to be effective, that they are inferior roleplayers or uninterested in roleplay. That is simply not true. A great many of the best "builders" I know here and many of the people who are most mechanically savvy and capable in pvp, are also some of the finest storytellers the server knows. Treating people as villains when they are very far from that, is a dangerous game to play, and runs the risk of being very upsetting to a number of pretty much blameless individuals.

"Powergamer" in my using of the word = "rp-light number-obsessed player"
"Powergamer" is not "rp-heavy + number-savvy player"

First of all, I don't believe true balance can ever be achieved.
So powergamers will always find some combination that is hyper and will be axed eventually so they find something new which is then axed... an endless cycle of frustration.

So because of this, secondly, I feel the real problem is elsewhere:
Variety in class chosen by powergamers would diversify agenda of characters. True.
Though it does nothing at all to increase the rp-quality in this rp-light section of the playerpopulation.
Those types create shallowness+frustration (especially when involved conflict-storywise) regardless of what build they play.
Other than the RPR there is to my knowledge no mechanics to reward rp over shallow-rp-playstyle.
( Eh pardon if my writing is confusing. I am trying very hard to write coherently.)
The focus should be on inventing mechanics that give a seizable advantage to RP over light-RP on a storytelling server. And inventing means and incentives to help players become better storytellers. Rather than worrying about class balancing all the time.
That class balancing, while it can have positive effect on overall environment, as you pointed out, I feel is only a minor issue as compared to the insignificance of RP mechanical-wise.
If powergamers become better roleplayers that would mean they even if playing their hyperpowerful characters they know what makes a good story and give room to opposing, non-top-mechanics characters for meaningful narratives.

Lastly, I do not see a severe impact on roleplay environment with a melee vs spellcaster imbalance yet.
Just as paladin will have trouble against evil spellcaster. Blackguard will have trouble against good spellcaster.
Though paladin vs PM is problematic. But paladin is always problematic...

[NauVaseline]

"Powergamer" in my using of the word = "rp-light number-obsessed player"
"Powergamer" is not "rp-heavy + number-savvy player"

It's always the people who don't understand the game who trash on the people who do understand it. You're creating a strawman to beat on Perhaps you've been dunked in the past and it's frustrated you into creating this strawman. There are only casual and devoted RPers & build-savvy, build-ignorant and "build-locked" players

[Huschpfusch]

"Powergamer" in my using of the word = "rp-light number-obsessed player"
"Powergamer" is not "rp-heavy + number-savvy player"

It's always the people who don't understand the game who trash on the people who do understand it. You're creating a strawman to beat on Perhaps you've been dunked in the past and it's frustrated you into creating this strawman. There are only casual and devoted RPers & build-savvy, build-ignorant and "build-locked" players

If there were indeed only roleplayers casual and devoted there would not be any need for balancing at all, because everyone would give each others characters narrative space and meaningful ingame interaction.

[Nitro]

If there were indeed only roleplayers casual and devoted there would not be any need for balancing at all, because everyone would give each others characters narrative space and meaningful ingame interaction.

That's a Utopia. Utopias don't exist. On a server with 100+ players simultaneously online there's always going to be those who cannot agree with how things should play out. And if there's no balance, then they don't have a level, fair playing field for settling that dispute with mechanics.

And how would you propose legitimate IC conflict be resolved in this utopia? Both sides sit down and agree which one of them should win before it even begins? That sounds incredibly boring.

EDIT: And as a final note, I think it's unfair to claim that anyone on this server isn't here for roleplay or does "roleplay-lite".

[Zavandar]

what if I told you that some of the best role players I've encountered here are also some of the more mechanically savvy people on the server

being good at the game and being a good role player aren't mutually exclusive.