PG-13 and what it actually means based on definition

[Dr. B]

I should point out some discrepancies between the rules here and what the PG-13 rating actually allows. Irongron said that abortion, infanticide, and miscarriage are not PG-13 topics, yet The Cider House Rules is a PG-13 rated movie about an abortion clinic and Up (PG) features one of the main characters having a miscarriage. It's also been said that the F-bomb cannot be used, but PG-13 allows the F-bomb as long as it's used only once, although MPAA rating committees have been flexible here: https://www.imdb.com/list/ls075350723/

[The GrumpyCat]

A fair point with the F bomb thing. But I ask you a question.
So in the MPAA rating - you say the F bomb may be used once. Ok, cool.
Once per how often?
Per 2.5 hours? (the length of time of an average film) Day? Week? Month? Year? Characters life span? Time played on the server?
Comparing PG13 on this game directly to film/tv ratings is a bit tricky because we're dealing with different medium - a visual shound based medium vs a written medium.

When it comes to swearing, I'd rather say 'No F bombs ever.' and then possibly be able to overlook the odd F bomb someone drops accidtnaly because they got too passionate, or had a brain fart, or just was a little bit chancy - than say 'Yeah ok you can use them just once' and then find people are using them once per IG day, leading to F bomb tirades that upst the parents of young children (of which I am now one ) on the server.

[l33tfragiletings]

I'll admit that the PG13 line can be a bit of a trickly line to follow. Not just because it covers 'act' but also 'context.' The other Dms have given pretty good examples on where the line is though.

Reguarding Violence - yeah it makes no sense in our society that we are more easy going about torture than we are about sex. I dunno what that says, but sadly it's true and not something we can change.

I do sympathise with one point that players are saying however - When playing monster races by nature it's going to shift a bit away from PG13 in terms of violence. If you prevent that, then sadly what you end up with is people going 'Oh Drow arn't so bad. Really the surface is worse.' And if you remove the chance of torture, for example, then you prevent avenues for rp that arn't basically murder. I do agree it's a very careful line to walk, and I'd certainly advise that players tone down any excessive descriptions, and also ensure that at every point the other player involved is comfortable with it, but I do think there's a danger of sanitising the server too much at the same time.

One good line however is that of Language. A general rule of thumb which I like is this (and thank you Mithreas for this one)
If it's a swear that is used in the voice sets, or inthe main game of NWN (damn, bugger, blast, hells, ect) then you're free to use it as much as you want.

If it's not used then please avoid.

We'll over look the occasional more severe term - everyone slips up and yeah, the (VERY!) occasional S bomb is probably fine. And best used in extreme scarcity anyway, if only because then people know that S**t got real
But the F bomb really should be avoided at all costs. Sorry, I know that's probably dissapointing to some of you. But it's a line we really have to be firm on.

Thank you so much for giving this thorough response. I think it'll save me from future rule-breaks! Woo

[Subutai]

The more I think about it, the less the whole "PG-13" thing doesn't make sense to me. I made a comment about it before, but since then, we've gone as far as to bring up MPAA criteria on what makes a film PG-13, and I really, really want to reiterate that Arelith is not a visual medium. Literally none of what's being discussed here actually occurs graphically in NWN. I understand that we want to draw the line somewhere on some kind of activities or types of emoting, but using the MPAA film rating system seems like a misapplication of criteria, to me, when it's intended for determining how to rate video and its related audio, not text. Surely there has to be a more appropriate list of criteria somewhere?

[Durvayas]

Hi. I play drow a lot. A cruel drow that routinely tortures prisoners as part of slavery RP and interrogation.

I've sort of settled into a routine of best practices to stay within the rules while still pushing the envelope, because as grumpy said, if drow are not excessively cruel and violent, people can and will hem and haw about them not being so bad. And my character has a reputation to uphold anyways.

So my method...

1. I send a tell to my PC's victim, asking them if they're cool with being tortured, and if they have any hard limits. If my PC has a specific objective (eg: cutting off an elf's ears, branding them, cutting out an eye) I get clearance for it. If they don't want to be tortured graphically, my PC will bring out a hammer and break bones. There is less blood in describing it; You just need to emote a thud and a crack to get the point across after all.
2. I ask my PC's victim's player to please inform me if we stray into territory that they become uncomfortable with, so I can tone it down or stop the scene.
3. I then send tells to everyone in attendance giving them a warning that whats about to happen is going to get a bit grisly.
4. I ask them to please inform me if we stray into being so graphic that they become uncomfortable with it, so I can tone it down. I don't give them the option to stop the scene, their PC is not a prisoner, and is free to find something else to do if they REALLY want none of whats going on. The scene is not for them, they're spectators, and occasionally assistants.
5. I begin the scene, usually starting out with a few punches, but quickly graduating to using a hammer. The intensity of the scene will vary from person to person, but I'll usually ramp it up, breaking out the knives, poisons, and other cruelties until someone objects or until I feel like we're seriously approaching 'passion of the christ' territory. Then I'll scale it back a little and hold at that intensity until the scene is over.
6. Nothing my PC does to another PC is permanent without their express permission. I like to RP my PC's glowing red assassin's blade as leaving marks that scar, and cannot be healed. I'll often ask if its fine to mark a PC permanently, and while sometimes the answer is no, very often, the answer is yes, and my drow gets to leave a victim something to remember her by.

I've never had anyone complain about a torture scene, and I've done dozens of scenes like this. Generally people are quite happy with the experience OOCly.

[DM Axis]

I am not certain why the PC monster races make the list above.

He is refering to RP of those races....you can see things in UD...well...for example...from last encounter with Surface...
We had prisoner....and...
One Ogre: *Rips his arm from his body, throws it into his mouth and after few crouching sound he swallows it*

Is it PG 13? Isnt it?

Isn't this God-emoting?
...

God Emoting would be forcing someone else's character to do something. If they are dead they would not necessarily have control of the limb. If a player is standing at full health before me, it does not make sense that I would be able to force him to give me the finger as an example.

Invented instance: *Jon Snow chuckles some profane thoughts under his breath which Jamie clearly takes exception to*

A small clarification to this is the ability to interact with said objects.
Using body parts for a one off display of grotesque carnivore consumption (I mean it's eating people here, last I checked we're all still people) is fine when not too graphic or excessive.
Using heads/trophies of any kind on a note pinned to the board is not allowed because this is not something that can be removed or interacted with. Impaled heads can be created via the fixture system and are allowed to be created.

This also includes but is not limited to sending speedies who forcefully commit actions such as (but again never limited to) pieing someone in the face, showing off buttocks, or some degree of violent behavior that is 'emoted' from afar.

These are not acceptable. And instances of this misuse should be reported.

God emoting can also be some invisible 'invincibility' or similar. This is not a common issue however as PVP usually settles most feuds and shows that characters indeed have weaknesses.

[Lady Astray]

According to the Arelith wiki link I posted, regarding God-emoting, it isn't necessarily just forcing another player's character to do something, but also forcing the consequences of your character's actions onto another player.

To quote the wiki:

Godemoting (or power-emoting) is an act of forcing the result of one's actions on another character, typically without the other player's consent and not giving the other character a chance to do anything about the emote.
For example:
*John slaps Jack*
*John catches Jack by his arm and holds him in place*

In my opinion, even if the character has been restrained, posting something like *cuts off BooBoo's finger* without their consent is pretty poor form in RP. Considering we have sorcerers, warlocks, and fighters capable of carrying around 4,000 pounds, not giving them a chance to respond or void your actions is pretty much (definitely) God-emoting.

To list a few examples of how a player tied up in a chair could respond to such an emote:

Sorcerer: *projectile vomits acid in the direction of their captor's face*
Warlock: *summons a demon to attack their captor*
Fighter: *breaks free of their restraints with their Herculian strength*

OOC communication and asking consent before doing something like this goes a long ways. If a player sends you a tell saying they are fine with being dismembered or skinned alive and all present parties are comfortable with such RP, I really have no problem with it. What I do take issue with is such RP being forced on other players, especially newer players who aren't so familiar with the rules. There's also the fact that such things tend to get posted all over message boards after the fact, and 12 year old Timmy might end up reading about it and having nightmares for the rest of the week.

People keep using the American film rating system to try and say that people are fine with violence but things like sex or nudity are off-limits. As an American I can assure you that is not the case. We might have a bunch of super hero movies where people are beating the crap out of each other but there is almost never anything more graphic than a bloody lip. When it comes to people being skinned alive, gutted, dismembered, etc. those movies are almost always rated R. You could probably do some digging and find some PG-13 movie with a lot of violence, but I could also do some digging and probably find some Danish children's movie with tons of gratuitous sex and nudity and constant F-bombs.

I think Durvayas' post sets a good example of how a player should conduct themselves in such a situation where their character is torturing someone else's. With respect, consideration, and communication, one could probably pull off this kind of role play without offending anyone or stepping in someone's metaphorical corn flakes. That's about all I have to contribute to this thread though, and I'm sure others have posted this many times before anyways. It is always worth having a discussion though, imo. Hopefully someone benefits from it.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

'Oh Drow arn't so bad. Really the surface is worse.'

Actual quote from my character.

[Lady Astray]

'Oh Drow arn't so bad. Really the surface is worse.'

Actual quote from my character.

Honestly I've seen good aligned clerics and paladins that put the worst of the drow to shame. This isn't just about Team Evil. Team Good and Team Neutral have plenty of offenders too.

[Memelord]

Well, if you see a Cleric you suspect of being Good-aligned, or a Paladin, engaging in torture or gratuitous brutality - report it. Having a Good alignment means possessing an inherent respect for the dignity of living creatures and the sanctity of life. Torture is, therefore, objectively not Good.

But anyways, people. It's really simple. There are kids who play here - don't use our RL cursewords unless it's the very rare slip. Come up with your own setting-specific curses, or use the ones provided by Greenwood/WotC (I listed a few on the last page as examples.) Don't emote out gore and brutality. You can still be plenty evil without it, and it'll be less worthy of eye-rolling. I guarantee it.

[CosmicOrderV]

It seems odd that this thread garnered as much attention as it has. I would be dissapointed if irongron actually said anything about things like miscarriage being a no-no topic. I also generally find the notion of "not wanting to make people uncomfortable" odd. This is a game. By in large, the events within this game are expressed over text. Do we want to cultivate a server of high quality mature roleplayers, or are we content to never nudge someone out of their comfort zone? Arelith is the BEST place for this to happen, because none of the events are real, and so much of it is supported by imagination. If to you make a mistake, dont sweat it. New login name, and new character. Grow. Experiment. Flourish.

I have been playing probably 8 total years regularly across a span of 11 years? Ive literally never seen anyone take the violence too far. In fact i think that would be a very difficult feat just because of how well versed with anatomy, and how much time, it would actually take to accomplish this. No one in this entire thread has pushed that line with examples given.

I think the core issue that may be encountered for those like OP and others who like to comment on what they've never experienced, is self insertion. When emotes seem to veer into the realm of self gratifying power fantasies? Yeah that can be an issue. Not because of how graphic it is, simpky because thats unhealthy behavior and puts others in a precarious position of how to react to such unhealthy behaviour. Even still, ive never seen this actually happen. Im not goimg to say it hasn't, but as with so many other 'fears' brought up on the forums, it's drastically exaggerated.

Complaining about alignment also seema off base. There's a fun theological arguement to be made there, but as Ork is fond of saying, "Support it in-game with badass roleplay."

[Born on a mountain, raised in a cave]

I could also do some digging and probably find some Danish children's movie with tons of gratuitous sex and nudity and constant F-bombs.

min yndlingsfilm

[Lady Astray]

I think it is important to recognize not everyone has the same boundaries as you. Maybe you're fine with graphic violence in your role play. I'm not. Many other players aren't. Just like many players wouldn't feel comfortable with constant sexy elven fun times going on around them. There's also the issue of consent. Most people wouldn't want someone trying to sexy elven fun times with them without their consent. But there seems to be this mentality that gratuitous violence, gore, etc. should be fine because "I'm just playing my character bruh." I believe that thread about the Wangrod defense is applicable there. You say you've been around 8 years and never seen violence taken too far? I've been here 8 months and seen violence taken too far multiple times. But we have different standards, obviously. What is acceptable for you isn't for me. Consideration is a good thing. No one should be forced into something they are uncomfortable with in regards to online role playing. Even if you enshrine in the rules that gore, dismemberment, etc. are legal under X circumstances people always will have the option to log off and not participate in it. Respect your fellow players and their boundaries and you likely won't have any problems with them OOC.

[DM Axis]

I think it is important to recognize not everyone has the same boundaries as you. Maybe you're fine with graphic violence in your role play. I'm not.
...

Again I reiterate that the DM Team should be reported to if there is a problem. Much as you may have an individual opinion you share among your own friends and groups, the DM Team maintains a quality server wide.

Do not try to force people to play a certain way, cooperate, and if need be at worst report and disengage.
In the forum, thoughts should certainly be explored, but there are also flat rules that are to be obeyed if you will continue to play on this server or post in this forum. Please remember this.

[Dreams]

Aren't the rules pretty clear on this?

Consent doesn't come into it, because things such as sexy elven fun times aren't permitted on Arelith.

[CosmicOrderV]

I believe you're mixing up two topics. I agree with your prior expressed views concerning god-emoting. Trying to do anything in-game that you cannot get away using the WYSIWYG rule, requires the other party to play along. That's good. You cannot be forced into any of the things you are complaining about.

But it's a different issue than someone being too graphic with their emotes. Don't confuse the two. This is the part I'm saying is very difficult to break a rule on. It's this part that I'm also saying sounds dis-genuine and manipulative to claim as your justification as to why someone's RP you didn't like was "against the rules" or "bad". Adapt. Grow.

[Lady Astray]

I think it is important to recognize not everyone has the same boundaries as you. Maybe you're fine with graphic violence in your role play. I'm not.
...

1. Again I reiterate that the DM Team should be reported to if there is a problem. Much as you may have an individual opinion you share among your own friends and groups, the DM Team maintains a quality server wide.

2. Do not try to force people to play a certain way, cooperate, and if need be at worst report and disengage.

3. In the forum, thoughts should certainly be explored, but there are also flat rules that are to be obeyed if you will continue to play on this server or post in this forum. Please remember this.

1. What does "maintains a quality server wide" actually mean? Are there any wiki articles or forum posts detailing this?

2. I do not believe I've tried to force anyone to play a certain way. My post was actually expressing this sentiment. Maybe you aren't speaking about me personally but just in general. Could you reiterate what you mean by this so everyone reading this thread can understand?

3. What rules specifically are you referring to? I'm very familair with the server's rules for the record and as far as I know have followed them.

http://wiki.arelith.com/Rules

[magistrasa]

[Queen Titania]

1 and 2:: To simply sum, just report if there's a problem. Server wide quality means the PG-13 rule is applied everywhere equally.

3: Those are IG rules. The forum rules are simple: Be courteous and kind. When in doubt, everything Axis says falls under rule #5 as well.

Magistra's GIf applies for the rest!

[Liareth]

I think it is important to recognize not everyone has the same boundaries as you. Maybe you're fine with graphic violence in your role play. I'm not. Many other players aren't. Just like many players wouldn't feel comfortable with constant sexy elven fun times going on around them. There's also the issue of consent. Most people wouldn't want someone trying to sexy elven fun times with them without their consent. But there seems to be this mentality that gratuitous violence, gore, etc. should be fine because "I'm just playing my character bruh." I believe that thread about the Wangrod defense is applicable there. You say you've been around 8 years and never seen violence taken too far? I've been here 8 months and seen violence taken too far multiple times. But we have different standards, obviously. What is acceptable for you isn't for me. Consideration is a good thing. No one should be forced into something they are uncomfortable with in regards to online role playing. Even if you enshrine in the rules that gore, dismemberment, etc. are legal under X circumstances people always will have the option to log off and not participate in it. Respect your fellow players and their boundaries and you likely won't have any problems with them OOC.

Even if it's oddly permitted by our cultural standards to skin somebody alive and force them to walk around wearing a hat made from their inner thigh, I would suggest that most people are willing to skip the torture if you ask them. I have no patience for torture scenes myself. I find them boring and distasteful. So if I'm being tortured I just send a tell saying "hi I'm not a psycopath is it okay if we skip the detailed graphical torture?" (paraphrased) and I've always had the answer "yes, let's fades to black" in response. If I have to torture someone (rare, usually there's an alternative) I will fades to black it after discussing it in a tell. If I have to watch torture I'll just make an excuse and leave. I think RP comes with implied consent by default since you are playing a character in a story so by being present and participating you're consenting to the story unfolding, but if you feel uncomfortable just assert yourself and people will respect your wishes for the most part.

[monkeywithstick]

I’m going to make a post here, though with a little trepidation.

Thing is, I have a RL friend, he roleplays, he’s actually really damned good. I very much enjoy our (limited due to geographic proximity) time roleplaying together. So, you’d think I might point him to Arelith, right?
Except I haven’t. Why? He’s ex Forces, he has PTSD. I do not know his triggers, but I do know he has some, and to be frank the specifics are none of my business.

Likewise I have other friends who have suffered sexual assault, harassment etc. A post cropped up on my FB feed yesterday in fact, saying that an old friend of mine had taken her estranged partner to court for the fifth time, because, despite a restraining order he had turned up banging on her window at 5am scaring the hell out of her and their child, demanding to be let in.

Likewise, this person, I cannot in good conscience bring to Arelith, even with its current implementation of PG-13, it would take one IC “creep” to ruin the experience entire and likely result in them never coming back. There are quite a lot of other people in this or similar situations within my wider friend group, but I am not going to bash out outlines of all their circumstances because that is not the point.

There is a concept we discussed in LRP, the “Missing stair” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair. And much as yes, asking someone to please not on an OOC level is fine for some people, it isn’t for everyone. It’s a signpost for the missing stair, not a solution.

Torture RP may be fine for you, it would be in poor taste for others, it would be actively harmful for others, and the solution we have from some people is essentially “they probably shouldn’t play this server.” Or “They should speak out.” That is very much putting the onus on the afflicted rather than creating an environment they might like to play in.

Likewise, I recall when I first started playing both the female characters I have played here; I had to fight off a slew of suitors of various levels of benign through to outright creepy simply because my character model was female. That’s fine for some people, romance RP is a powerful, and fun storytelling device. It is less fun if it has IRL connotations of “creep”.

The game is escapism, people play to escape the real world, not be reminded of its flaws. That doesn’t mean, we all need to hug and dance round a campfire IC, but some consideration given you do not really know the age, gender, circumstances, mental health or otherwise of the player on the other end of our exchange is never going to be a bad thing.

[Born on a mountain, raised in a cave]

A good video on this topic by Matthew Colville, who has been referred to already in this month. The man talks about DnD in a Tabletop environment specifically, but I think his advice is applicable to roleplay in general.

[Baseili]

When you're doing stuff ingame just imagine you're at a table with your friends, family and 13 year old brother/sister/cousin and apply it to your actions. If something you're doing would be off-putting or uncomfortable in that setting then change it to be more acceptable or don't do it at all.

I've noticed a small minority of players tend to go overboard with their RP indulging in what could only be described as "murderporn", while never having experienced it myself (thankfully) I've been grouped up with players who have and it soured their experience greatly. As for sexy elven fun times, its never needed.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

When you're doing stuff ingame just imagine you're at a table with your friends, family and 13 year old brother/sister/cousin and apply it to your actions. If something you're doing would be off-putting or uncomfortable in that setting then change it to be more acceptable or don't do it at all.

Yeah, This goes from family to family. And person to person.

I grew up watching R rated movies with my dad at ten years old, while another parent will go crazy because DnD promotes fictional religions.

I stick with the doctor who guide.

[CosmicOrderV]

...

Your post may simply be inspired by a desire to play with your friend, but here are some issues.

Tyranny of the majority. The only efficient way to build a system is so that it pleases the most amount of people. You dont build on the outliers. Also, your post comes off vaguely manipulative because just as you dont know their triggers, you dont know if arelith would trigger them at all. That's a conversation for you and them. Not for us here on the forum. Your fear and uncertainty isnt a tool to be used so that you can avoid uncomfortable conversations via server policy changes. Talk to your friend. Figure out what works. If arelith isnt one of those things, so be it. The server is maintained with the goal of pleasing the most people at once, within a sphere of immersive story telling. Some people wont be in that sphere. Your friend might be among those. You wont know without some communication.