The Big UMD Change Thread

[Anomandaris]

How about everyone just rolls up Svrifneblin characters and we start the f***in Gnome REVOLUTION!!!!

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

More then anything else, even the restoration of the old functional umd system, is transparency and openness as to what’s planned, and what might be fine tuned and what kind of mundane craftables will be added so we can make informed decisions rebuilding our PCs.

[kossos]

It's not cool to make such change without notice and without giving people the ability to rebuild. Btw for higher spells you need a lore of up to 80, how are you even supposed to get there, I'm a new player. There is a bug also, drinking a lore potion doesn't allow for scroll use despite getting higher a higher score than needed.

Edit : ooze tubes not working either for me, activates but no summon

[Seekeepeek]

This update is pretty much like replacing the "Gregorian calendar" with the "International Fixed Calendar". While the idea is good, replacing the old system is to much work. i think it's a great idea for a new server thought, with less baggage.

[Test Drive]

It's not cool to make such change without notice and without giving people the ability to rebuild. Btw for higher spells you need a lore of up to 80, how are you even supposed to get there, I'm a new player.

You should be getting a rebuild when you login with a dash command

[Ecthelion]

It's okay, guys, really.

The remaining admins know what they're doing. This is just part one of several updates. Like Irongron said, they spent months of forethought, planning and testing to make sure that this change is balanced as best as it can be so that it doesn't completely destroy the structural integrity of the PVP and PVE scenes alike on the live server. It's refreshing to see how much effort and active play was put into this before it went live.

Stuff will get tweaked (eventually) and people will figure out how to survive in the meantime.

That's not how updating a game should ever work. It's not very responsible to launch an update that you actually know is terrible, and wait weeks before tweaking it out. Testing it on the PGCC was probably the right thing to do at least. How do you even expect people to plan around unannounced changes ?

Hope those "tweakings" will be wise and come quickly.

[Dr. B]

I'm going to weigh in here and simply beseech the development team to roll back the changes to scrolls, and to generally avoid touching UMD in the future. Most of my thoughts have been well stated by Hex. My impression is that there seems to be a general consensus among players that this change is for the worse, and the players are usually right--their combined judgment on this question is likely to be better.

[Peppermint]

Please. There's a lot of weird stuff in this update. There're huge, gaping flaws with almost all of it. Coming off the heels of firing the balance team, and all the rest of the weird updates this year--I'm just floored. (And alas, not too surprised.)

It's a mess. All of it. I might do a full write up on the problems in the near future. But in the meantime, the UMD change might be one of the most shortsighted, heavy-handed changes I've seen in years.

I'm getting strong circle grind script vibes. I remember Mithreas doubling down on that (and the consequences that arose). Is Irongron prepared to do the same?

[Dr. B]

More then anything else, even the restoration of the old functional umd system, is transparency and openness as to what’s planned, and what might be fine tuned and what kind of mundane craftables will be added so we can make informed decisions rebuilding our PCs.

What needs to happen is that the relationship of the development team to the module should switch from a proprietary to a custodial/curatorial one. I've thought about writing a post on this on and off for years. Might do it now, but it will probably get locked.

[Alantar]

Does anybody know how many lore points are required to use lvl 9 scrolls?

[Dr. B]

80.

[Ecthelion]

Does anybody know how many lore points are required to use lvl 9 scrolls?

It's 80 if I did read correctly.

[Alantar]

80?! LOL

Is that information available anywhere?

Thanks.

[Dr. B]

Go examine a level 9 scroll in a player shop in game.

[ltlukoziuz]

I will momentarily snip this thread for the full changes, not just UMD. 80 Lore is now still achievable, but a build shattering decision. For example, my current Rogue/Knight/DivChamp can get it... at the cost of three items slots (Int Addy Bracer, Witchhunter's, and RH Ring, which I was not fond of taking at first) and every other item but weapon getting +2 Lore, including Addy Helmet, Shield and Plate, which is a ginormous cash sink. That I could live with, although I hate that now I feel like a special one, doing what almost no one in the server can anymore, not to mention what everyone else has pointed out in this thread. You just don't do partial changes and say "We will give you the bandaid in whenever".

But there's a bigger problem from storyline perspective. For most folk who won't do 80 Lore - how do they now explain that they just lost the ability to read scrolls? What has suddenly changed in them to be an anathema? And while we're at it, Averitt and another person have lost actual RP tools/mini-storylines from the Lore change, in that the understanding of languages is now capped at 25%.

This morning, as I ruminated through the updates, my interest to play my current character changed from 25% (initial read) -> 100% (realizing it's doable if I spam millions of gold on the problem) -> 0% (realizing I just lost my current RP through an update).

[Ecthelion]

80?! LOL

Is that information available anywhere?

Thanks.

Yeah in the table on the announcement section, in one of the last messages in the updates thread. Lore requirements are listed ^^

[Aftond]

Balance of classes was looking really good until this major nerf to mundanes.

Fun to see my caster pm become unbeatable overnight . By burly sub200 iq men and women that is.

[Poolbrain]

I really like the thought of drifting away from this immense UMD focus the servers has, especially how it opens up more interesting ways of building none-casters.

It might have been "balanced" but balancing casters vs none-casters (You're not "mundane" if you're using 9th circe scrolls..) by allowing the none-casters.. the same spells as the casters.. Is a bit cheap. NWN has existed for what, 19 years? I think if Arelith wants to survive for anywhere near as many years (from now) some design changes needs to be made at some point even though they will be flawed from the beginning.

I'm sure most people posting here have been playing Arelith for many years, see the imbalance of the moment as an investment for the future, because I promise you there's better and more interesting ways of designing (in this case) caster vs none-casters than giving them the same damn tools as each other.

Also, if you dry your tears because your WM is suddenly not an epic caster anymore there's a lot you can do by giving up UMD.

Feel summons is a problem? Make a barbarian/blackguard/fighter and just rip them a part in seconds. Paladin/fighter/wms sounds scary? Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters.

There's even rings available that casts WoF without UMD. With the potion changes the server has a bonanza on awesome drinks to make you see pesky invisible mages and so forth.

I could imagine a future with expensive one use relics for spells like Time Stop (Small pouch filled with sand of time) being as expensive as higher tier runes.

Can't wait to see more crazy none-rogue/bard builds out there!

[Kshatriya]

Investment in scrolls is way too high. If the want to decouple scrolls from the rest of UMD, I think the least that could be done is lower the requirement. Make them comparable to one another so it's a bit more pick and choose. Or at least make the most useful spells attainable with some level of investment that doesn't break one's build. The idea that mundane characters shouldn't be throwing around such high level spells is debatable but to just rip that out of the game now and tweak it later is a bit irresponsible imo.

As it stands, just as one example, summons have become extremely powerful. Mundane characters have no real way to get rid of them and don't have access to them, themselves. Not to mention that the only other two tools they might be able to use (if the caster hasn't already summoned their edk/vampire/etc) are dismissal and banishment which give a 30 and 60 second window without the summons respectively. Given that they can no longer reliably dispel the caster either it's more likely than not that they're not going to be able to make much of any use of that time anyways.

Maybe there might be some solution that satisfies the people that want to see less UMD and the people who want mundanes to be on par with casters but this isn't it. Otherwise a lot of the changes were honestly really cool and I'll use this as a chance to say that there is a lot of good direction in them. On the point of this thread however, I really see nothing good coming out of this direction.

Also as an aside I don't think a lot of the comments trying to downplay the mechanical knowledge of other players (many of whom have a history of being exceptionally good guidance on building) is really useful.

[godhand-]

I really like the thought of drifting away from this immense UMD focus the servers has, especially how it opens up more interesting ways of building none-casters.

It might have been "balanced" but balancing casters vs none-casters (You're not "mundane" if you're using 9th circe scrolls..) by allowing the none-casters.. the same spells as the casters.. Is a bit cheap. NWN has existed for what, 19 years? I think if Arelith wants to survive for anywhere near as many years (from now) some design changes needs to be made at some point even though they will be flawed from the beginning.

I'm sure most people posting here have been playing Arelith for many years, see the imbalance of the moment as an investment for the future, because I promise you there's better and more interesting ways of designing (in this case) caster vs none-casters than giving them the same damn tools as each other.

Also, if you dry your tears because your WM is suddenly not an epic caster anymore there's a lot you can do by giving up UMD.

Feel summons is a problem? Make a barbarian/blackguard/fighter and just rip them a part in seconds. Paladin/fighter/wms sounds scary? Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters.

There's even rings available that casts WoF without UMD. With the potion changes the server has a bonanza on awesome drinks to make you see pesky invisible mages and so forth.

I could imagine a future with expensive one use relics for spells like Time Stop (Small pouch filled with sand of time) being as expensive as higher tier runes.

Can't wait to see more crazy none-rogue/bard builds out there!

Well said.

"Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters."
Hey, take an extra feat with Epic Acid resist, add in some ankheg gear and hey presto no more acid sheath issues.

[Ork]

I feel absolutely jilted by the change. If you're going to replace such a cornerstone of balance like UMD, a replacement is necessary. I can only hope that Irongron has surrounded himself with poor advisors, because the change to the way this game works is so jarring that it will undoubtly have major ramifications moving forward.

I'm sure there are a few content with this change. Ding dong the UMD witch is dead. However, these few have such a lack or grasp on Arelith's mechanics that it is almost negligent. You can't tear through summons on a barbarian/blackguard/fighter. That's not how any epic level encounter has ever worked.

In the end, the same game remains by a different name. Now we'll be investing in lore instead of UMD & at great sacrifice to obtain some measure of counter-play. Forget ever dismissing, banishing or WoFing summons without mords to bring down their innate SR. You're doubly damned if a smart cleric slaps on the SR spell.

All hail Clerics & Wizards as King. Long live the king, I guess. It feels like I'm playing back in 2006 on Arelith all over again.

[Imperatrix]

I really like the thought of drifting away from this immense UMD focus the servers has, especially how it opens up more interesting ways of building none-casters.

It might have been "balanced" but balancing casters vs none-casters (You're not "mundane" if you're using 9th circe scrolls..) by allowing the none-casters.. the same spells as the casters.. Is a bit cheap. NWN has existed for what, 19 years? I think if Arelith wants to survive for anywhere near as many years (from now) some design changes needs to be made at some point even though they will be flawed from the beginning.

I'm sure most people posting here have been playing Arelith for many years, see the imbalance of the moment as an investment for the future, because I promise you there's better and more interesting ways of designing (in this case) caster vs none-casters than giving them the same damn tools as each other.

Also, if you dry your tears because your WM is suddenly not an epic caster anymore there's a lot you can do by giving up UMD.

Feel summons is a problem? Make a barbarian/blackguard/fighter and just rip them a part in seconds. Paladin/fighter/wms sounds scary? Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters.

There's even rings available that casts WoF without UMD. With the potion changes the server has a bonanza on awesome drinks to make you see pesky invisible mages and so forth.

I could imagine a future with expensive one use relics for spells like Time Stop (Small pouch filled with sand of time) being as expensive as higher tier runes.

Can't wait to see more crazy none-rogue/bard builds out there!

Well said.

"Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters."
Hey, take an extra feat with Epic Acid resist, add in some ankheg gear and hey presto no more acid sheath issues.

What?

DR and acid sheath have nothing to do with the issue. lesser breach wands still exist and can still be used.

The issue is there is no counter-play whatsoever to dragons, vampires, or warlock fiends.

[Nitro]

Well said.

"Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters."
Hey, take an extra feat with Epic Acid resist, add in some ankheg gear and hey presto no more acid sheath issues.

Are... Are you for real? How is taking a useless epic feat and wearing a bad item in one of your precious item slots even remotely a good deal for a mundane? All that to counter a single sheath spell that's on the breach list. What do you do when the PM with his beefed up death armour rolls in? Or someone drops an EDK on you that you have to slowly carve through while they pelt you with spells? Or a warlocks epic fiend beats you to a paste while the warlock kites and disco-rays you to death.

And if you against all odds should manage to clear out all their summons and actually threaten a caster, they can just timestop and resummon/buff or gsanc away and there's literally nothing you can do about it.

[Peppermint]

Nor Greater Sanctuary.

Nor is there an answer to mages casting Timestop anymore.

The only solid classes now are casters (and bards), and to a lesser degree, divine classes.

Mundanes with UMD have never been 'like mages'. What a ludicrous idea. On what version of Arelith are players playing where weapon masters are routinely ganking players with IGMS, Timestop, and EDK scrolls?

[Ecthelion]

I really like the thought of drifting away from this immense UMD focus the servers has, especially how it opens up more interesting ways of building none-casters.

It might have been "balanced" but balancing casters vs none-casters (You're not "mundane" if you're using 9th circe scrolls..) by allowing the none-casters.. the same spells as the casters.. Is a bit cheap. NWN has existed for what, 19 years? I think if Arelith wants to survive for anywhere near as many years (from now) some design changes needs to be made at some point even though they will be flawed from the beginning.

I'm sure most people posting here have been playing Arelith for many years, see the imbalance of the moment as an investment for the future, because I promise you there's better and more interesting ways of designing (in this case) caster vs none-casters than giving them the same damn tools as each other.

Also, if you dry your tears because your WM is suddenly not an epic caster anymore there's a lot you can do by giving up UMD.

Feel summons is a problem? Make a barbarian/blackguard/fighter and just rip them a part in seconds. Paladin/fighter/wms sounds scary? Take 3 more fighter lvls on your olde 20/7/3 WM and you can suddenly have a +5 weapon for those casters.

There's even rings available that casts WoF without UMD. With the potion changes the server has a bonanza on awesome drinks to make you see pesky invisible mages and so forth.

I could imagine a future with expensive one use relics for spells like Time Stop (Small pouch filled with sand of time) being as expensive as higher tier runes.

Can't wait to see more crazy none-rogue/bard builds out there!

While I agree that the use of UMD is not optimal, it is absolutely ridiculous to argue that rings offering WoF and such stuff are reliable options. You've got to equip your Savras's Eye to counter Gsanc, your rings to get a chance at WoFing, etc ... That's nonsense.
You sure can kill an EDK or any summon, but by the time you do that you'll be utterly dead, unless the mage experiences a C++ crash.

If you wish to change the UMD system, well, you need to replace it. Not replace it in an hypothetical future while allowing uninformed rebuilds.