[Bard Update] Feedback Thread

[ElevenOne]

Now I understand. I suppose I misunderstood. Apologies.

No problem at all. Not sure if this was answered earlier, but is the extra APR made at full BAB? I can see that as an definite consideration for a melee build to go pure bard.

All extra ARP follow their own progression. Example: Hasted (+1 APR ) Dualwielding (+2 off hand APR) barbarian ( 4 base APR) under thundering rage (+1 APR).

The progression would be:

Main hand attacks (Full AB, AB-5, AB-10, AB-15)
Off hand attacks (Full AB, AB-5)
Extra attacks (Full AB, AB-5)

So, for your question, if the bard is not hasted, the song extra APR would be at full BAB, if hasted, the attack would be at AB-5.

[Kamuizin]

While not directly a feature of this bard upgrade, but as deeply affected by it, may i suggest a review for the shaman synergy with bard?

Actually there is just 2 points in this dip:
Bard levels giving 1/3 CL for dispel to shaman levels
Shaman levels giving 1/3 bard song progression.

For the last part this meant bard song progression is 12 for dip 27/3 (9+3) and 11 for 24/6 (8+3). Correct me if i’m wrong, but at the moment is 11 charges of 1 minute song and 10 min to recharge each charge no? That make the dip features not very attractive. Sounds good in theory, but in practice has no application.

May i suggest 2/3 for the bard song progression, so, 27/3 would Hit 21 bard song progression (18+3), allowing the pick of Lasting Inspiration (i think it would do)?

Obs : 2 dips in 24/3/3 would be 19, still putting the dip behind 1 bard song for Lasting Inspiration (16+3), thus anyone who wish 20 bard songs with this will need to dip 4 levels in bard and seriously harm their CL against dispel.
Obs2(edit): this calc is wrong, 23/3*2=15,33 (rounds down), +4 still 19. 2 dips are screwed for Lasting Inspiration.

Shaman is a very feat starved class anyway and any attempt to pick bard feats will directly affect spell focus feats (con, trans, abj pre-epic and + div epic normally), so it may be a fair trade.

[toftdal]

1. Having an hour long song means a bard can just sit in the hub or guildhouse or whatever and buff everyone on their way out without having to risk themselves. This goes against the design intentions of song dropping when the bard dies.

I agree. Bard song is perhaps the most powerful group buff in the game. Giving someone an -hour- of so much AC/AB/Damage/Saves/Skills AND the individual song buffs like 50% movement speed increase, scry immunity, etc, is way too strong (and it's unpurgeable to my knowledge). I think the 15 minute cap with lingering/lasting feats was a good balance. Heck 10 minutes was strong for just having lasting, especially given song recharge is below ten minutes nowadays.

I can forsee, for example, PCs in the main settlements giving out 60 min songs for players to run epic dungeons, and not even joining them for it.

I might be missing something completely obvious, but why not have the bard song only work when you are a) in party and b) on the same map?

[Morgy]

1. Having an hour long song means a bard can just sit in the hub or guildhouse or whatever and buff everyone on their way out without having to risk themselves. This goes against the design intentions of song dropping when the bard dies.

I agree. Bard song is perhaps the most powerful group buff in the game. Giving someone an -hour- of so much AC/AB/Damage/Saves/Skills AND the individual song buffs like 50% movement speed increase, scry immunity, etc, is way too strong (and it's unpurgeable to my knowledge). I think the 15 minute cap with lingering/lasting feats was a good balance. Heck 10 minutes was strong for just having lasting, especially given song recharge is below ten minutes nowadays.

I can forsee, for example, PCs in the main settlements giving out 60 min songs for players to run epic dungeons, and not even joining them for it.

I might be missing something completely obvious, but why not have the bard song only work when you are a) in party and b) on the same map?

That is another option, though I'd prefer it not to matter what map you are on, because if the bard crashes/is delayed on a previous load screen/fighting another group in mass pvp on the next transition, it doesn't make sense that the buff wouldn't still apply imo. Limit it to 15 minutes, which solves these issues in one stroke. 60 mins for this buff is simply too strong.

[toftdal]

I was also wondering how the classes with synergy is chosen - I am guessing it has something to do with BAB - the only three with synergy and 1:1 BAB is Arcane Archer and one of each Zhent and Harper. I'd think it would make sense to have Knight have some kind of synergy - or is that off the table due to it being too strong?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Now I understand. I suppose I misunderstood. Apologies.

No problem at all. Not sure if this was answered earlier, but is the extra APR made at full BAB? I can see that as an definite consideration for a melee build to go pure bard.

Should be, it's added the same way as haste.

[ElevenOne]

What about:

- Capping song at 15min
- Unremitting Cadence gives 15min song, but does not require lasting inspiration

This way, Unremitting Cadence is the same as Lasting Inspiration + Lingering Song, but in one feat rather than two (which require high charisma to get).

Unremitting is useful otherwise. I'll just remove the song duration increase from it.

I would love if Unremitting Cadence as an alternative option to lasting inspiration, making non cha build to take lasting inspiration to extend their song, and the cadence to for CHA builds.

If the issue of the duration is for buffing in town other people and the bard to stay away. and it will be removed, could at least the following options be considered:

A) Players loses the song effect when leaving the party group.
B) The duration is still x4, only for self.
C) Make Song of the Heart requirement only lasting inspiration, as Unremitting Cadence will not alter the song at all with the change, which would make it a strange prerequisite.

Seems the change was announced, guess the answer to the this post was a no?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

just one thing about the apr. I know this has been discussed already, but no one mentioned one suggestion and I too agree that 28 is too late to get it even if i understand why its there. It said it was to help bards solo, but solo what? Runic dungeons?

So my question was this, is it possible to make it at level 21 with epic perform or something while checking to see if you are full bard?

My reasoning for this is rather simple.. a full 30 bard is going to be weaker at everything solo combat related then its dipped brothers, and even with the extra attack per round is going to be find content suitable for a 28+ too difficult to solo. So as it stands now, the addition at 28 is pointless. you give it to them at 21, and they might be able to solo the talassans, or the earls mannor a little better then they would with 3 attacks per round instead.

Just my two cents. I know its a more complicated set of checks to make it so you can't get a fifth attack out of it, but i think the juice is worth the squeeze because as i said I think its rather pointless at 28 on a pure bard.

[Sincra]

The 28 selfish solo is to enable a bard to comfortably Solo NON-DUNGEON content at max level without basically being a haste expending 3 apr tool with anemic damage.

It is not moving due to two things:
It was contentious to get it considered.
At 21 we still don't know if you're going to be pure or not, this defeats the objective of giving a choice of more functionality to support focused bards that may still want to melee.

Not everything needs to be made accessible just because you deem it "not so useful" or "not meta", how about instead just accept it's a feature for a song that makes it a little better than say just sitting in the regen song and haste at a 28+ bard.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The 28 selfish solo is to enable a bard to comfortably Solo NON-DUNGEON content at max level without basically being a haste expending 3 apr tool with anemic damage.

It is not moving due to two things:
It was contentious to get it considered.
At 21 we still don't know if you're going to be pure or not, this defeats the objective of giving a choice of more functionality to support focused bards that may still want to melee.

Not everything needs to be made accessible just because you deem it "not so useful" or "not meta", how about instead just accept it's a feature for a song that makes it a little better than say just sitting in the regen song and haste at a 28+ bard.

I mean, if you put a check to see if you are pure bard at its usage whether or not I take bard levels after is not relevant. It's fine if its not going to change, I just said what I thought was best since it seems like a pointless thing at 28 for the character type that would get it at 28. You go full bard because you know you are going to be in a group a lot. If you are just looking to be the best solo bard for both pve and pvp, you are going to splash something. Even getting it at 21 (especially if its a haste effect and not an apr ala barb rage) is whatever, since haste wands are a thing, I just thought it would at least be slightly useful then since sometimes you are still in the low 20s and all your friends are dirty thirties, making you want to go do some writs and catch up. At 28, its just not a useful thing to anyone since again a pure bard is going for max party effect.

I'm not a power muncher by the way, I don't even talk about my builds in public because there would be a lot of pointing and laughing. I just think that if you have a thing, it should do a thing, or it ends up being a useless thing. I get the concept of behind the scenes contention better than most though, so I know how these things end up.

[jomonog]

Given all these new class synergies with bard it would be nice if lasting inspiration could be available to take as an epic feat for any character that has effective bard song of level 20 or higher to encourage the hybrid bard builds.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Given all these new class synergies with bard it would be nice if lasting inspiration could be available to take as an epic feat for any character that has effective bard song of level 20 or higher to encourage the hybrid bard builds.

A duration increase based on effective levels is being considered, but Lasting Inspiration will retain its dominance in terms of bonus and placement on its corresponding levels.

[xfears2077]

I'm in a very bad mood. And the reason is simple - the current state of my favorite class, bard. Let me try to explain in detail.

First at all, let's take a look at the RP archetypes of the bards.

1) Pure bards. Famous citizens or travelers. Tavern artists or opera singers. People who have equally good relations with the streets and the lords, connecting these two worlds. Something is very close to commoners with the extensive abilities to buff.

2) Battlebards. Skalds. Squad tactical leaders. Banner-bearers. Something is very close to warpriests, but arcane ones.

3) Let me quote the NWN wiki: "Bards often serve as negotiators, messengers, scouts, and spies." I can continue this list: tricksters, scoundrels, mafia authorities. Lightly armed warriors. DEX is the keypart of all of those builds.

I always thought that the "flavor-3" is the most common for the most bards. Personally played such bards since the 90s.

And it seems to me that I understand the idea and the main goal of the recent update: is to give ALL the bards more "flavor-3" sort of gameplay.

But what just happened in practice?

Let's call the starting state an "A" (before the patch). So we had different ways to develop our bard, imagine the scheme:

A + BCD (multiclassing with rogues, rangers, shadowdancers, swashbucklers).
A + EFG (multiclassing with fighters and divines).
A + HIJ (no multiclass)

Quite an interesting choice, isn't it?

However, a huge shift has occurred after the last patch and starting state became ABC. So now, our scheme is looks like:

ABC + D
ABC + EFG
ABC + HIJ

Is there choice at all anymore? As I said before - the most common flavor was nerfed to zero. It's huge.

Just try to search in Discord with the keywords "DEX Bard". "Dead concept, dead concept, dead concept" year after year, right?

One of the most ridiculous (but not the only!) examples of this horror is Uncanny. Let's see and count who have it: spell and hex -blades, rangers, barbarians, earthkinds, swashbucklers, warlocks, pets, familiars, decent part of grandmothers, roughly speaking - whole realm, but not the "scouts and spies". Isn't this absurd?

Honestly, I don't understand. What dip would you suggest to get this one simple and obvious thing? Shadowdancer 3? Ranger 8? Maybe rogue 4? Absolutely clear that any of this ruins any build. Completely.

What do I suggest? You recently introduced an absolutely brilliant feat acquisition mechanic for the shaman.

Let's take a look a standard lvl 24 bard with 1/3 progression (8 to a 11 effective) of her two roguish 3lvl-dips in terms of feats:

Rogue: keen sense, 3-4 sneak dice, uncanny.
Ranger: use poison, woodland stride, improved two-weapon fighting (or +2 arrows), evasion (maybe; already seems enough), uncanny.
Swash: mobility, luck of heroes, uncanny.
Shadowdancer: defensive roll, slippery mind, uncanny.

Nothing seems OP? Everyone agrees that this is exactly what DEX-bards need? And this comes with a fair price - lower CL and dispel resist levels, 20 (two tiers lower) song. Still lack of DPS.

Another breath of life - is to add additional effects to the rarely-in-use spells (only from book) IF bards have one of the listed dips.

A good example, + HMS for Displacement spell.

Balagarn Horn arrow. On-hit low-DC effects like daze (chasing 1 basically). Not necessarily this but something alike.

[Heroic Spirit]

3) Let me quote the NWN wiki: "Bards often serve as negotiators, messengers, scouts, and spies." I can continue this list: tricksters, scoundrels, mafia authorities. Lightly armed warriors. DEX is the keypart of all of those builds.

I always thought that the "flavor-3" is the most common for the most bards. Personally played such bards since the 90s.

starting here - sorry, but you've thought wrong. DEX bard is probably the worst variant of the build possible. you're paying feat tax for finesse, and you have no damage. whatever worked in the 90s doesn't work now, because people are keen on the mechanics of the game.

Just try to search in Discord with the keywords "DEX Bard". "Dead concept, dead concept, dead concept" year after year, right?

i mean, you've even said it yourself☝ just build something else

One of the most ridiculous (but not the only!) examples of this horror is Uncanny. Let's see and count who have it: spell and hex -blades, rangers, barbarians, earthkins, swashbucklers, warlocks, pets, familiars, decent part of grandmothers, roughly speaking - whole realm, but not the "scouts and spies". Isn't this absurd?

here, linked is the vanilla variant of bard. uncanny dodge has never been a part of it's kit https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Bard. for your scouting and spying, you have absurdly high perform to aid in your disguises. access to additional bonus languages helps in that sort of roleplay as well. bards have always had hide and move silently as class skills. the pilfering song grants at least +11 hide/ms on a level 20 bard. paired with high investment in the skills and they're difficult to detect.

anyways, bards have been buffed pretty significantly - and no, it wasn't to give bards DEX gameplay at all. you have access to more spells, there's a plethora of songs/curses for added versatility (added in earlier updates).

if anything, high CHA caster bard has been brought into the light with the additions of bard receiving undead caster level, Song of the Heart, and Unremitting Cadence.

Rogue: keen sense, 3-4 sneak dice, uncanny.
Ranger: use poison, woodland stride, improved two-weapon fighting (or +2 arrows), evasion (maybe; already seems enough), uncanny.
Swash: mobility, luck of heroes, uncanny.
Shadowdancer: defensive roll, slippery mind, uncanny.

for your above builds, multiclassed toons with 21 levels of bard even have +3 additional CL vs dispels - so they actually benefit.

Balagarn Horn arrow. On-hit low-DC effects like daze (chasing 1 basically). Not necessarily this but something alike.

if you want to chase 1 DCs on-hit, use poisons. http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Poison

[xfears2077]

Wait a minute, summing up everything I said, I said that DEX-bards should be viable and somehow explained WHY they are weak at the moment. Summing up everything you said as an answer - absolutely the same actually, but you arguing they MUST be weak BECAUSE OF this WHY? Designed to be weak? Very strange logic. But I agree. They are weak because of. And it must be fixed because it is a classic vicious circle otherwise - always "just build something else", something from the front page of the wiki.

here, linked is the vanilla variant of bard. uncanny dodge has never been a part of it's kit https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Bard

What about the vanilla rangers? Why is it important at all? Shouldn't we fix the obvious "weak spots" in the core rules, considering many years of our practical experience?

I didn't mean that Uncanny should be built-in, but available as an option for the price of the dip. This is a huge difference between.


This feat should be easy to access, that's for sure. But in practice "easy" is very much dependent on the levelcap. Core rules cannot anticipate and regulate all the possible scenarios. And something that is easy to get with levelcap of 40, same time ruins builds with levelcap of 30.

for your above builds, multiclassed toons with 21 levels of bard even have +3 additional CL vs dispels - so they actually benefit.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Dispel_Tables

24 + 3 = 27, right? Already one tier lower than pure 30 caster. Yes, it's significant.

BTW, for why do you think this bonus exists for hybrids? To give them more space to hybridize even more, to stimulate it. And this is the concept and spirit of my request as well.

Anyway, specific values can be lowered further on. I just indicated the starting point and direction.

Try to ask about something like 24/3/3 bard/rogue/ranger in Discord and you'll be answered is "way too weak compared to". So maybe a combination of all three feats (woodland, use poison, keen sense - QoL things) instantly makes this build an OP miracle?

I absolutely do not insist on any forms of additional DPS.

if you want to chase 1 DCs on-hit, use poisons. http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Poison

And we are back to the beginning yet again. Give me "use poison" feat or high DEX and I would.

[Itikar]

The issue of uncanny dodge for bard is not so much that it is bad per se that bard lacks it, but that almost every other class that melees or is some kind of spellblade gets it. Spellsword, whose idea is rather close to a bard, but gets ninth level spells, gets it, so why is bard left out? Why should dexterity bards be so penalized? They do not particularly shine really, especially the non-divine versions.

I recall that when this point was mentioned, at the time of the previous big update, it was said that then it would be looked into removing uncanny dodge from classes that do not have it in vanilla or tabletop incarnations. Since then hexblade got actually uncanny dodge given to it.

Personally I would rather prefer uncanny dodge being less common, I don't like rangers, monks, spellswords and many others having it. But I see little merit in leaving bards and fighters out of it, if the intention to remove it from other classes is not there. In other words, the situation at hand pertaining uncanny dodge is really inconsistent among the classes.

One of the reasons I find this update most praiseworthy is that it finally made charisma bards a viable build, instead of a meme. I don't see why dexterity bards should be so neglected as they are now, despite the fact they are actually arcane casters, not unlike hexblades and spellswords.

I am glad to see at least that there is some awareness of this issue in the community, so thank you, xfears, for bringing this up.

[Kamuizin]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it before, but could a divine champion synergy be evaluated for Bards? It's a class with a good synergy for Bards (at least sound that way) without breaking balance, as you get nothing instantly (like divine grace/dark blessing for example) but by progression in Divine Champion levels.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I don't know if anyone mentioned it before, but could a divine champion synergy be evaluated for Bards? It's a class with a good synergy for Bards (at least sound that way) without breaking balance, as you get nothing instantly (like divine grace/dark blessing for example) but by progression in Divine Champion levels.

It gets full BAB.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So I have been playing all week, and i have to say that the changes have been very good. I went from unable to solo (dex bard) to soloing no problem in the teens, and that will probably last until the low epics which is good enough. The build is meant for parties anyways, where a dex bard really shines despite someone above saying they are unplayable. Sorry, but having monk level ac to guard with while buffing everyone with you and debuffing everything you are fighting is really strong even if you don't do much in the way of damage .

I haven't gotten to the part where this matters yet, but I'm still not in love with the level 30 "pure bard" benefit, and if I could change one thing about what you guys did it would be that. I just don't think it does enough for a pure bard, and is laughable compared to other "level 28 perks". And yes, I know an extra attack per round is really strong, I just don't see any builds that would benefit from it caring. A DPR round bard is not going to trade all the goodies they can get from dipping for 1 ac 1 ab and a few more skill points, and everyone else is going to want to focus on bufffing the party and not solo buffs. Maybe there is something with casters I don't see (ala why blinding speed was changed) but as far as I'm concerned if this was a contested issue I say give the people who thought it was too good the win with a nod and a wink and replace it with something a level 30 bard can actually use

[In Sorrow We Trust]

So I have been playing all week, and i have to say that the changes have been very good. I went from unable to solo (dex bard) to soloing no problem in the teens, and that will probably last until the low epics which is good enough. The build is meant for parties anyways, where a dex bard really shines despite someone above saying they are unplayable. Sorry, but having monk level ac to guard with while buffing everyone with you and debuffing everything you are fighting is really strong even if you don't do much in the way of damage .

I haven't gotten to the part where this matters yet, but I'm still not in love with the level 30 "pure bard" benefit, and if I could change one thing about what you guys did it would be that. I just don't think it does enough for a pure bard, and is laughable compared to other "level 28 perks". And yes, I know an extra attack per round is really strong, I just don't see any builds that would benefit from it caring. A DPR round bard is not going to trade all the goodies they can get from dipping for 1 ac 1 ab and a few more skill points, and everyone else is going to want to focus on bufffing the party and not solo buffs. Maybe there is something with casters I don't see (ala why blinding speed was changed) but as far as I'm concerned if this was a contested issue I say give the people who thought it was too good the win with a nod and a wink and replace it with something a level 30 bard can actually use

You get a feat and the strongest possible song

[Kamuizin]

Pure Bards could get access to Planar Conduit, maybe, at 28 bonus feat, in the place of all the other changes to buff pure class, since we will have lots of bards/PM/Dirgesingers soon, with mummy dust. May be wrong in this, but as Mummy Dust, Planar Conduit would be a PvE viability without breaking PvP.

Based on earlier questions (and i'm not sure on this), dirgesinger will progress bard spells and the picking of new spells for the spellbook, right?

(pre dirgesinger)
17/13 - Bard/Palemaster - Get mummy dust, lvl 6 spells, no epic spell feats and lasting inspiration
15/15 Bard/Palemaster - Get Mummy, immune to critical and epic spell feats, no lvl 6 spell circle (PM don't give spells to spellbook and lvl 16 bard is needed) and lasting inspiration.

(dirge singer)
7/10/13 - Bard/Dirgesinger/Palemaster - Same as 17/13 but with access to lasting inspiration
5/10/15 - Bard/Dirgesinger/Palemaster - Same as 15/15 but with access to lasting inspiration

A lvl 30 bard would be equal to the 7/10/13 bard/dirgesinger/PM, with a much better song* [13 bard song + 22 Curse song x 30 bard/curse song]

*dirge singer apparently changed for no bard song progression in the wiki (0:0)

Obs: If planar Conduit is too OP for 30 bards, maybe elemental swarm as a feat ability could do the job.

[Xerah]

Please stop asking questions about unreleased content. Mechanics can change during the development process (and just as likely during the live testing phase) and planning things out to this degree with content you don't even know yet isn't something that will exist which will just confuse everyone.

[Wethrinea]

I am playing a pure bard that is currently sitting on level 23. He was made long before the bard changes, and is thus built as "ye olde str bard", with 16 charisma, trash dex, decent cont and int. Pre changes he was OK, early pre-teen bard levels have always been a torturous experience where you essentially were a lousy sorcerer with medium armour proficiency. After the changes he is pretty great, the new songs give benefits for every situation and the scaling is much more sensible.

But the greatest addition to a bard's repertoire on Arelith have been Leadership and Henchmen. As a bard, you are the greatest buffer out there, and you are perfectly geared to lift those sub-par henchmen to greatness as veritable engines of destruction well into mid-epics. And that goes double for PC party members.

It is important to keep in mind that bards are a support class. They thrive in groups and were never meant to shine alone, so they will be worse at soloing than nearly every other class. And that is how it should be.

In return, they get all these neat tricks that nobody else have. Fighting frost giants? Here, immunity to ice storms. Dragons? Wreck the worms with additional AC, AB and elemental DR. Having a super-secret meeting? Let me sing you my song of absolute non-detection.

The latest updates have been a massive buff to all bards, and I think they are in a pretty sweet spot now. Sure, their damage alone is laughable, just as the gods intended.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

You can bring friends. Giving bards an epic spell would absolutely not be balanced.

[msterswrdsmn]

So there are 2 or 3 different bard feedback threads with various issues, but this seemed like the most appropriate topic to respond to.

I waited for about 2 or 3 weeks before commenting on this, playing as a bard-heavy character.

My thoughts? A lot of quality of life changes, but nothing game-breakingly horrific like some of the other comments are making it sound like.

Bardsong in general was toned down slightly and given numerous sub-songs with a niche focus. This is a nice idea in theory, but I've personally only found a handful of them being useful. Granted, I -am- mostly a solo character due to playtime issues, so obviously i'm getting more out of "Selfish Solo" than anything else. But I haven't had much of a reason to experiment with the other buff songs. Miners Melody, for example, isn't terribly useful for me at level 30 as the bonuses are very, VERY small compared to what other songs offer. A loss of 2 AC vs elementals and 6 DR is not going to entice me compared to other songs, sadly.

Some of the songs are very, very niche and some players will probably never use. Sea shanty for example, is absolutely useless if you're not on a boat or going underwater. Boats aren't the 5 million-gold glory-quarters rare anymore, but they're still not the most accessible thing on the server to get on regularly.

Curse songs are even more of a mixed bag. I can tell they're definitely more party-oriented in mind, which makes it difficult me to accurately gauge how useful they are. Bards don't have great offensive spell selections, so things like Reposeful Requiem which add elemental vunerability to enemies would be great if I actually had said offensive elemental output, but I don't.

Some of them, like venemous verse, unfortunatly, I just can't ever see myself using (on paper). Some songs like Chilling Chant that have fixed, non-scaling elemental penalties (15%) were too small for me to really take advantage of, barring a critical hit with a weapon enchanted with said element (non-crit damage was typically too low to benefit)

I both love and hate how most skills are open to bards now. Bards have always been a skill-hungry class, and this is NOT helping me with my notorious build indecisiveness. Nothing here is groundbreaking, per se, as multiclassing with bard builds was almost required, so you were more likely than not going to get these skills anyway with a decent build. I guess this makes pure bard builds more build-flexible, but your overall lack of offense compared to other classes is going to hurt (more on that below)

Even if all these skills are now class skills, you're still probably going to struggle to get -everything- you want. I have 18 INT on my bard and I still had to split points and agonize over what to give up.

The spells are a hit or miss. I love having rogues cunning, but I can see why everyone else hates it. Greater Shadow Evocation is broken, but if it -was- working it makes ice storm completely useless (I can take the bards 6th level Ice storm, or Greater Shadow Evocation, which has icestorm AND 4 other spells). Amplify lasts longer now, which...honestly i'm indifferent about? Listen honestly sucks compared to spot, and it takes harsher penalties when factoring distance, combat, and objects in the way. So on -some- level, you need to crank it higher to get the same results you would with spot. Blasting it up by something like 30-40 ranks with specific bardsongs and spells is a bit much, but none of these spells last long enough to make casting them 24/7 worthwhile.

So, basically, its sitting in the same boat truesight is/was in my opinion. You're probably not going to have it up all the time, and you'll usually needed to be clued in somehow as to when you need to use it. When you DO fully crank it all out, odds are you'll be able to find the stealther if they haven't gotten the hell away from you or stabbed you by then.

As far as combat goes? The new spells/songs offer some quality of life changes, but the melee bards weaknesses are still the same. Still no evasion without multiclassing and a lower HP pool means evocation spam will destroy you very quickly if you aren't careful. You can crank your AC up to high heaven, but you're very vunerable to powerful dispels and being flatfooted. Bards themselves don't inherently have anything that gives a significant damage bonus, even if you're STR based, so your damage output is typically going to be somewhere between "okay but my lower level rogue/barbarian hit way harder" to "wow, this is awful".

Cranking up your melee bards damage usually invovled ye good olde divine dip for divine might, or something similar. Apparently those went out of fashion a while ago? Still seems to work fine for me, but again. Same weaknesses. Its not like the weak points of melee bards disappeared overnight because of these changes. They're still there!