About That Enchanting Suggestion

[Rwby]

Surely the easiest transition would be a one-time script which gives you the chance to trade in all your enchantment feats for Transmutation feats?

Edit - If we were going for a school swap.

If we're not going for a school swap, then I'm not sure anythings needed, providing enchanters are still getting a good cookie out of whatever-it-is that enchantment would be doing. They could still enchant cool stuff, and they'd get a new cool toy.

[thingsicantdo]

Surely the easiest transition would be a one-time script which gives you the chance to trade in all your enchantment feats for Transmutation feats?

what would you propose for people who would take enchantment anyway, but also want the enchantment benefits? (for example, bob, the wizard, took enchantment, conjuration, evocation, and let's say abjuration. given that he wanted to make epic gear, but also wants foci in the enchantment school, shouldn't he be able to drop another school for it? he may not have taken abjuration over transmutation in this case).

[Rwby]

When bad things happen to good adventurers...

[thingsicantdo]

When bad things happen to good adventurers...

alright, we've got the worst idea out of the way

[JediMindTrix]

+1 ^

GSF could enhance duration & ESF could give an enchantment spell a x% chance to ignore Mind Affecting Immunity?

I think the discussion Yellowcateyes was trying to provoke was more in line with Red Ropes original suggestion, which doesn't tie enchantment to any school. I might be wrong! But if that's the case, I don't see enchanters really suffering if something like the above is provided... they still have the ability to enchant, they still have access to the same spell repertoire, except now they'd be more effective. Granted, they wouldn't be able to charge as high of prices for enchanting but whatever

[Xerah]

Enchantment could provide an alternative to the monster summon spells, giving longer duration and stat buffs. Something else would be nice too. Hm. Like this one http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antipathy.htm

My gnome artificer needed to take enchantment so I could make things. It was strange. She also had transmutation, mind you.

[Woper_The_Black]

I like it the way it is.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I like it the way it is.

I second this. My epic enchanter did rune work for someone they'd never met just the other day. He charged exactly 10% of the labor cost, and was brought an item with a draconic rune that needed a third +1 stat put on it. The work was about 5200, so Ast made about 500 gold.

Ast was happy to do the work, and it was a fun bit of RP for me- the person he wound up doing the work for is a descendant of a previous friend.

Getting enchanters to work for you isn't always hard, depending on how the situation is approached. Both of my goody-two-shoes have "enchanted" items for evil characters in the past. It can in fact happen.

As to their scarcity- I believe that over the last hour I spotted at least four different characters that weren't mine who had ESF: Enchantment.




I'd like to visit a tangential point. Though our advertisements claim to be based on a modified 3.5 rule-set, the truth is that we are a modified 3.0 ruleset. Spell Foci still give +2, +4, and +6, so do the spell penetration feats. Haste still gives extra actions and +4 dodge AC on top of the move speed (in 3.5 mass haste doesn't exist; it's +1 dodge AC, double movement, and an extra attack during a full round attack (never a spell) to something like 1 target per four caster levels or so)?

Keen still stacks with improved critical, etc. I could go on, but most of the key features that 3.5 changed are still 3.0. A lot of changes have been made that are reflective of 3.5, and I'm by no means unappreciative, but to say Arelith is closer to 3.5 than it is to 3.0 is false, at least in my opinion, so balance changes should be based around more than JUST that, I think.

Or, you know. Give me a free school change, I guess (pretty please)? But I kind of like the fact that the school that's easiest to ignore gets a bonus to things other than the stuff that gets ignored. A lot.

[MissEvelyn]

It's hard to not appreciate Enchanting for what it is, especially after reading all these posts. I think I'm inclined to agree more that Enchanting is fine the way it is, even if it seems a bit 'inconvenient'.

When was RPing ever convenient?

[JediMindTrix]

Except Red Ropes changes would still let you access that RP? You just would not have the monopoly anymore.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I'd be happy with teleport/portals being moved to conj, item enchantment being moved to trans, and ench getting something else.. but I think it should come with re-levels for characters with those feats.

Doing nothing is also fine with me.

[Tourmaline]

You guys are throwing around the possibility of rebuilds for current enchanters if this were to happen like it's a sure thing, but recent history has shown that isn't too likely (it's really only happened for PDKs who had required feats completely changed, and feylocks which was later said to be a mistake.)

It would be far more likely a present enchanter would be like an archer ranger who took three feats that became redundant overnight last week, and if you want to mitigate it you have to de-level, remake or just live with it.

Anyway I think the current system is okay, it is true that going by lore some of it seems a little wonky but it's more of an OCD thing than something that needs to be mechanically changed with all of the repurcussions that would bring. If something were to happen I'd rather see effort go to a complete overhaul of the enchanting pool, how it is used and what the possibilities could be since the current system really hasn't changed much since I was playing back in 2007.

[Baron Saturday]

I'm really curious as to why so many people seem fixated on moving basin bonuses to another school, rather than decoupling them from schools altogether and tying them to level and class instead. It seems to me to be the much less elegant, much more work-intensive option. Specifically, this (and not meaning to pick on you, Dr_Hazard, I've just seen this sentiment a few times now and you were the latest to express it):

I'd be happy with teleport/portals being moved to conj, item enchantment being moved to trans, and ench getting something else.. but I think it should come with re-levels for characters with those feats

This comes with a host of issues, one being the need to offer relevels, another being that you now have to rebalance multiple Spell Foci lines instead of just one. In the example above, for instance, conjuration foci (which are already probably THE best foci to take) become even more useful. So why is this preferable to just giving basin bonuses based on level/class and giving Enchantment something else?

As for what else...

I just finished playing Pillars of Eternity 2, and a system I greatly enjoyed there was the idea of resistance to debuffs, where a resistant enemy would downgrade a debuff from, say, paralyzed to rooted, or stunned to dazed. It would be interesting if this could be implemented, with ESF Enchantment allowing a partial bypass of mind immunity (probably with a reduced duration, as well).

Alternatively, and this idea definitely needs some work, but what if Enchantment spells applied CC-over-time effects? Each round for the duration of the spell, the target makes a save or suffers the effects of the spell for that round. Recasting the spell refreshes the duration, but does not cause multiple rolls/round to be made. This makes Enchantment much less binary, much less susceptible to removal by -pray, and makes clarity only offer a temporary reprieve from an ongoing effect. The questions this leaves: What further impact (if any) should Enchantment Spell Foci have? What impact should Extend metamagic have? Should casting multiple different CC spells on a target force them to save against each one every round (similar to how someone standing in, say, a web/entangle/grease combo has to save against each one every round), or should all enchantment spells override each other? How would this work with AoE spells like Confusion? (The more I type, the more I think that this is way too complicated to implement well...)

Anyways!

Anyway I think the current system is okay, it is true that going by lore some of it seems a little wonky but it's more of an OCD thing than something that needs to be mechanically changed with all of the repurcussions that would bring. If something were to happen I'd rather see effort go to a complete overhaul of the enchanting pool, how it is used and what the possibilities could be since the current system really hasn't changed much since I was playing back in 2007.

I think the reason this is being suggested is less a "Enchanting doesn't work like that in D&D, it should be Transmutation" nitpick, and more the fact that there is a perceived scarcity of characters with ESF Enchantment relative to the sheer number of people playing on Arelith these days, and that tying end-game gear to feats that are really not useful except for the creation of said gear likely contributes to this issue. What yce said, basically.

It is not a good dynamic when Enchanting is a sub-par choice, both mechanically speaking and in terms of RP perks, yet essential for high-end gear.

[Red Ropes]

...and where my 'WEIRD' issue comes with enchanting equipment comes with is that they are independent of spell schools in DnD, and in general its left to feats and class features. NwN is not DnD in total and I realize that. But it's still a game and the creation of items and things is fun! Not being able to create holy items as paladins, druids, and clerics kinda sucks.

Enchanting also is completely restricted to people who either gimp their potential output as a class by taking an empty dead school, or wizards who have extra feats can afford to just take a mostly useless school. What you gain as enchanter as a paladin, bard, cleric, ranger, or druid is absolutely underwhelming. The non-ESF casters (especially if we look at the Bard-to-Warlock convert) are stuck forever in a suboptimal can't quite do what everyone else can and will never have success despite investing two feats.

Making the enchantment school have an appropriate buff / cookie, while expanding enchantment of equipment to relevant classes only helps the ability for people to support their guilds, generate roleplay through the creation of relics, and doesn't cripple or sully the potential of everyone else. All it'd do is make everyone... gain?

I also guarantee not everyone is going to enchant. People will ignore its features and boons to have others do it because of laziness, lack of expertise, or just in general "I don't want to do it".

My idea is something based both in the mechanics but at the heart of it flavor and rp. If this were to change I expect it'd be on the back of an update to the enchanting spellschool as well. (A school which has long only been associated with making items where it should have appropriate, thematic cookies instead. Its spells and their hooks are basically vanilla and kinda 'PEE PEE DOO DOO', IMO.)

[Baron Saturday]

Continuing to brainstorm...

Some sort of -sense_mind ability could be an interesting RP tool. Two ways I could see it working: Targeted on a (non-mind-immune) character, it tells you where that character is for X amount of time. Sending -sense_mind to that character again in that time frame updates their location. A bit similar to scrying, but better for finding people, not so good for spying on them.

Or it could work as a general command, telling you how many other creatures are in the area with you. ESF could update it to give more granular info, such as telling how many hostile v. non-hostile creatures, or how many creatures of each racial group.

[Rwby]

If any arcanist/character can enchant stuff, then won't that entirely defeat the roleplaying aspect of not being 100% self sufficent on yourself for your own gear?

[Fionn]

Enchantment could provide [snip]

Obviously Enchantment should focus on animating furniture and dishes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHEMkbyXFxs

[Baron Saturday]

If any arcanist/character can enchant stuff, then won't that entirely defeat the roleplaying aspect of not being 100% self sufficent on yourself for your own gear?

Not really? It's still limited to caster classes, though I could see an argument being made that hybrid classes (namely bard, paladin, and ranger) should need to invest more heavily to get access to improved basin bonuses. Say, levels 7/14/21 for cleric/druid/wizard/sorcerer v. levels 8/16/24 or 9/18/27 for paladin/bard/ranger.

[Rwby]

If any arcanist/character can enchant stuff, then won't that entirely defeat the roleplaying aspect of not being 100% self sufficent on yourself for your own gear?

Not really? It's still limited to caster classes, though I could see an argument being made that hybrid classes (namely bard, paladin, and ranger) should need to invest more heavily to get access to improved basin bonuses. Say, levels 7/14/21 for cleric/druid/wizard/sorcerer v. levels 8/16/24 or 9/18/27 for paladin/bard/ranger.

That's hugely more open than it is at present, though.

[Baron Saturday]

I mean... That's the point of the suggestion, to make enchanting more accessible. I think you also have to consider that many characters aren't going to want to wait until level 21/24/27/whatever to enchant their own gear. Not to mention the fact that many builds don't go that heavily into their caster class. If the level 25 benchmark from the original suggestion was used, for instance, the cookie-cutter battlecleric would fall short.

The admin team has access to detailed character level statistics, and could look at those to determine where they want the cutoff to be.

[Duchess_Says]

Possibly, leave enchantment the way it is (at least, for existing characters) for spellcasters and make enchantment another avenue of crafting to spend points on. I don't see why a warrior with no casting classes still couldn't learn how to be an enchanter and it could be a profession anyone could dedicate themselves to like forging or alchemy.

[Wytchee]

I just dislike how mandatory enchantment feels, right now.

All the other schools have great perks, but I always feel pressured to take enchantment on a caster, even if it doesn't fit them appropriately, because of that gnawing feeling that "ugh, gearing will be a chore if I don't..."

Meh. Decouple it from foci, please.

[BrutalForce48]

Again, just my 2 cents, but from what I've seen alot ot people talk about every other class being able to enchant and item creation.

End all be all for me is that this is already a thing enchantment focuses just lessen cost and open up skill enchants only. So literally anyone can go and 5% a 3 stat item for example. Should a fighter Joe schmoe be able to enchant with the same skill as someone who's focused and studied into enchantment? Imo no, and this is reflected in a manner that is suitable in the server.

As for the mechanics, anyone who says that enchantment is underwhelming hasn't met someone who knows how to utilize those spells. Dominate monster hands down is one of the best out there.

Not meant to offend anyone here, again just my two cents. I think enchantment is in a perfect spot as far as rp goes and mechanically.

[Wytchee]

Again, just my 2 cents, but from what I've seen alot ot people talk about every other class being able to enchant and item creation.

End all be all for me is that this is already a thing enchantment focuses just lessen cost and open up skill enchants only. So literally anyone can go and 5% a 3 stat item for example. Should a fighter Joe schmoe be able to enchant with the same skill as someone who's focused and studied into enchantment? Imo no, and this is reflected in a manner that is suitable in the server.

As for the mechanics, anyone who says that enchantment is underwhelming hasn't met someone who knows how to utilize those spells. Dominate monster hands down is one of the best out there.

Not meant to offend anyone here, again just my two cents. I think enchantment is in a perfect spot as far as rp goes and mechanically.

We are talking about tying it to caster level, not character level. Not just any class would be able to enchant.

Also, let me reiterate, just for the record:

Enchantment is *decidedly* underwhelming.

A good chunk of the end-game mobs you fight will have some sort of mind-immunity; or otherwise, ridiculous will saves. With the changes to divination, that school does everything enchantment does in terms of stunning/holding, anyway, and with the benefit of having a flat +4 to its DC and totally screwing with spellbooks if the target is a PC caster. Divination also has one of the better one-target kills in the game in the form of Power Word: Kill, which has NO SAVE if you can manage to get your target below 100 hitpoints, which is hardly difficult with a few IGMSs.

Enchantment is lame. It's the worst school to focus in, by far. The only reason I took it on my wild mage was for its use at the enchantment pool. I think a lot of players feel similarly: that enchantment is mandatory unless you're okay with hating yourself come epics, but otherwise completely mechanically useless in both PvP (-pray is a thing, as are clarity pots) and PvE.

"Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but I have to put my two cents in? Somebody is making a penny." - Steven Wright

[Versatile]

People are finding it a chore to locate an enchanter to make their gear is one of the things I've been seeing mentioned here. Once again, my epic enchanter ~still~ has yet to be approached, asked, or read anyone searching for an enchanter. Is it honestly that hard to find that we need to open it up so that 75% of the server can make their own enchanted gear and runic items?

I also wonder, am I the only one reading this thread that thinks "Well here comes yet another change that will effect one of my toons that will change the concept of what I was after when I made them." ? I get that she would still be able to enchant, I get you are speaking of giving the school another 'cookie' which most are seeming to focus on domination, but that isn't why I spent those three feats. I would absolutely have taken another focus if being an enchanter was just going to be a given because I made a caster.