Arelith

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:10 am

My only point was the ring was not that much more powerful then something people could craft,

yall still cant add +5 to skills on an item, so it is by quite a large margin.

Its +2 disc +1 uni over what you can make, assuming you go 3 stats 2 disc and one uni on your enchanted ring. The option for better sr is good too, but for the classes that can get this ring I think only certain knight builds that don't dip into the others will care about that with the saves they are capable of already.

goblinhero wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:50 am

If there is one thing I have learned about rp'ers - it is that boundaries make them more creative - not less. Inter-faction friction, disagreements and ambition fosters a ton of RP. Sure, one goal is the same - eradicating evil where it is, but they do not share gods, motivations nor methods as to how to go about it. The larger the faction, the easier for these kinds of things to happen.

Since you have to wear the ring for it to work, that alone fosters RP, limitations and boundaries since other characters will treat you differently from the one not wearing the ring. They will -know- you are bound by at least one oath and can leverage/exploit that.

Sure, but why couldn't all this have been allowed to happen without the scripted factions? It's very hard to promote friction, disagreement and ambition within or toward a mechanically stable faction. They have a cultural monopoly. They are safe from the usual "market" forces of sandbox RP that everyone else has to consider.

It took literal years for a faction like Benwick to be upended because players will always regard the guy with the inviolable castle, or the static NPCs whose dialogue corroborate his RP, as more "legitimate". This isn't even taking into consideration the introduction of scripted factions, with their tags and powerful items. These things did, and will always, bleed into RP and affect players' assumptions about the world. It just stacks the cards against sandbox factioneers even higher, whose work, already volatile and discouraging enough, is entirely what makes Arelith, "Arelith".

Sounds to me like it would be better if anyone could register a Paladin Order faction and have access to these rings then.

Essentially make them generic and split the Radiant Heart quests / ring out from the in game NPC faction. This works well for Pirates right now, as there are various different crews that may not work together but all have the pirate missions/ranks/tattoos.

As usual, tying Player groups/factions together with NPCs is a bad idea because the NPCs are too static and relies on DMs to do the work. Better to have player factions in charge of settlements and major forces and have NPCs as minor background groups.

I like how in another thread people are fine with EMD being a really strong spell only be usable by evil, yet not with this really strong ring only being usable by certain classes.

EMD is not alignment-locked.

It takes a feat.

The ring is free: all you have to do it some fun quests and RP (those quests are in themselves a benefit).

I think the ring is cool and plan to use it on my paladin character. I also think it would be cool if there were N and G versions of EMD. I even posted that in the suggestion box a couple months ago (rejected).

But i dont think its fair to compare the two things.

One is a fundamental representation of Necromancy.

The other is less than a statstick, it's a statslot.

yeah no wonder

“Good” characters know their real strength is all of the friends they made along the way.

“Evil” stabbed all their friends in the back. They need those mummies.

Marsi wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:47 am

goblinhero wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:50 am

If there is one thing I have learned about rp'ers - it is that boundaries make them more creative - not less. Inter-faction friction, disagreements and ambition fosters a ton of RP. Sure, one goal is the same - eradicating evil where it is, but they do not share gods, motivations nor methods as to how to go about it. The larger the faction, the easier for these kinds of things to happen.

Since you have to wear the ring for it to work, that alone fosters RP, limitations and boundaries since other characters will treat you differently from the one not wearing the ring. They will -know- you are bound by at least one oath and can leverage/exploit that.

Sure, but why couldn't all this have been allowed to happen without the scripted factions? It's very hard to promote friction, disagreement and ambition within or toward a mechanically stable faction. They have a cultural monopoly. They are safe from the usual "market" forces of sandbox RP that everyone else has to consider.

It took literal years for a faction like Benwick to be upended because players will always regard the guy with the inviolable castle, or the static NPCs whose dialogue corroborate his RP, as more "legitimate". This isn't even taking into consideration the introduction of scripted factions, with their tags and powerful items. These things did, and will always, bleed into RP and affect players' assumptions about the world. It just stacks the cards against sandbox factioneers even higher, whose work, already volatile and discouraging enough, is entirely what makes Arelith, "Arelith".

Anyone that slips into this mistaken mentality just has to catch a ride with Laurik to remember that it's absolutely false- wharftown ruins are still pretty central to island geography, and doesn't really require you to go out of your way to see the example.

I don't think this synopsis is an accurate reflection of friction and conflict rp on the server. It's been years since it happened now, but the point is that it can. Soulhaven was "established", now it's gone.

Edit- at work- The tower also underwent some pretty heavy changes, and the temple of the triad, to name a few more.

"Legitament Establishments" are regularly overturned, if someone is motivated enough to make it happen.

You're example proved Marsi's point. Who can change established factions? The developers alone.

Ork wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:56 am

You're example proved Marsi's point. Who can change established factions? The developers alone.

That's a completely different topic, as is the entire conversation about whether server factions are a good thing or it should only be player factions. The two would go nicely in their own thread together actually. But since I'm not going to start said hypothetical thread I will say that while I fully support server factions for a multitude of reasons most of which have been covered by a few of us in this thread, no establishment should be safe from player activity knocking it all down if the story makes sense. That's actually one area where I think Arelith lacks the most, but I also understand that its a balancing act since you want to maintain some semblance of stability for the casual crowd that makes up the majority of players. Too much change where people feel they need to be on ten hours a day or they can't keep up will erode a player base faster then most things a nwn developing team can do.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:35 am

Edit- at work- The tower also underwent some pretty heavy changes, and the temple of the triad, to name a few more.

"Legitament Establishments" are regularly overturned, if someone is motivated enough to make it happen.

yeah nah soulhaven was inactive after they dumped it into guldorand
the tower changes were because of dev perception of player motivation but far from in a positive way from an OOC standpoint
the triad temple upgrade was also not from player initiative whatsoever

don't quote wharftown or benwick, either, these can all be neatly summed up as, essentially, punishments (or maybe more charitable "reassessments of their contribution to the server") from on high with player involvement and IC character credit being basically cosmetic.

Kuma wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:37 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:35 am

Edit- at work- The tower also underwent some pretty heavy changes, and the temple of the triad, to name a few more.

"Legitament Establishments" are regularly overturned, if someone is motivated enough to make it happen.

yeah nah soulhaven was inactive after they dumped it into guldorand
the tower changes were because of dev perception of player motivation but far from in a positive way from an OOC standpoint
the triad temple upgrade was also not from player initiative whatsoever

don't quote wharftown or benwick, either, these can all be neatly summed up as, essentially, punishments (or maybe more charitable "reassessments of their contribution to the server") from on high with player involvement and IC character credit being basically cosmetic.

I'll give you Soulhaven, because I never spent any time there myself - as for the Triad, I was under the impression there was a desire among both players and devs for a more inclusive atmosphere of religions within the city- again, from both an IC perspective of being a trade hub and from a design direction. One does not necessarily exclude the other, and in my experience the latter often comes from the former.

As far as Benwick and Wharftown being "punishments from on high," (or the more charitable phrasing), I'm of the opinion that it took an awful lot of IC RP in large enough numbers to have a noticeable impact on the atmosphere for those event lines to occur. It's my understanding that whether their outcomes were popular or not, they involved a great deal of people. I was part of the latter, so I can verify that it involved a lot of different people in a variety of ways, and certainly not just the people I was interacting with.

I'm not saying, at all, that there weren't also very likely some OOC factors as well, particularly in the latter case, of how things were ultimately handled- but we'll have to agree to disagree on the perception that players can't impact these things unless Devs want them to- Irongron was very specific about the fact that the destruction of Wharftown was neither part of the plan nor to his pleasing. Narratives can be made to happen- players just have to be comfortable with the fact that most plans don't survive first contact when they do.

Edit: And for the sake of being on topic- my opinion on the rings is ambivalence. I'd like to see something similar available for most class paths, but am not so envious of the differences offered by this singular strong item to ask that it be taken away because I don't have one, either. When a faction starts handing out rings with SR greater than 32, I'll re-evaluate. Until then, I'm all for Cookies For Others, even if I'm not playing a character that takes advantage of them.

I'd suggest some simple toning down:

1) Make it +1 uni instead of +2
2) Make it 22 SR instead if 26 SR

Just bumping this because I've seen a bit of discussion in the Discord channel, and using the feedback board is best practice in that situation.

My problems with the Ring are more narrative than mechanical. I do think a quick spot-fix would be to ax Spell Resistance and replace it with some 5% Damage Immunity vs. Evil Stuff, as well as lowering +2 Uni to +1, but,

1. I don't think the rings should show rank unless you ALSO have a signet ring. The progression of Squire-Junior Knight-Knight-Senior Knight-Knight Officer is very evocative of Light Keep. Thankfully, there are a lot of great roleplayers in the Radiant who recognize that a loose confederacy of knightly orders is better than strict interpretations of rank and hierarchy.

Which does beg the question of why there are ranks codified in the signet at all, if many many players/characters seem to not use this power to lord over each other. It just seems like a way of representing mechanical progression, and not narrative progression. Which I think is good.

But it just reinforces that the ring shouldn't show up in character descriptions. Or rather,

2. Radiant Order affiliation should show at the bottom of character descriptions like pirate tattoos, etc.

More broadly, I do wonder if playing someone Lawful Good has been watered down because of the strong mechanical incentives. It is always a difficult needle to thread - you want to attract players to play challenging characters but at the same time you don't want to dilute the significance of these concepts.

I still believe enforcing factions from an OOC level is Not Good, but that's an argument for a different day.

We had the beast belt trimmed and I hope the ring is next. The attributes are a little crazy and it results in a very unusual culture of a large majority being in a faction that they aren't even in. I haven't been playing a paladin for very long and already I have had multiple conversations with other factions that paint the RH as inconsequential - its joined just for the item.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:38 pm

I still believe enforcing factions from an OOC level is Not Good, but that's an argument for a different day.

100% this. It would be nice to see the RH changed to the way the Tower/Sencliff/Grove is where the area is class/occupation specific but not held down by a single NpC faction.


-S

There are just as many people who do love the idea of how the RH is set up with the faction with tags and all. It's also not set up to be controlled by one group (as the Arcane Tower was in the past), there is a just guildhouse in a cave, while the main building is the RH.

That said, on my list of things to do is to remove and replace all your rings so you can remake them with updated stats. I'm not exactly sure what this will look like, but I'm sure a lot of you can guess.

The sad part is that the RH has been devalued since so many people are building their character around getting access to the ring.

Xerah wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:02 pm

The sad part is that the RH has been devalued since so many people are building their character around getting access to the ring.

This I think is the real problem with keeping the ring so powerful.

Xerah wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:02 pm

The sad part is that the RH has been devalued since so many people are building their character around getting access to the ring.

I don't want to sound snide - but was this not inevitable?

You can make the same argument for the Harpers being devalued because of how strong Paragon was. You can make the same arguments about the upcoming Zhentarim because now it offers a build diversity for evil characters.

Because Radiant Heart, Harpers, and Zhentarim require only 3 levels of commitment to get Unlimited Access, you will inevitably have a whole slew of buildcrafters and players go,

"I can just swap out this dip for one of the above, it makes me better mechanically, gives me more access, maybe this concept didn't really fit verbatim the roleplay of RH/harper/Zhentarim but *shrug*"

All PrCs should be faction-less. TimeAdept had a good post about how he would convert all the Harper subclasses into generic PrCs. I still think that is the right choice.

Tying narrative to mechanics works very well in a table-setting. Not in an MMO environment UNLESS you're comfortable with things getting "watered down" and "devalued." Is it anything but inevitable?

I don't think everyone in the RH builds around getting that ring. But if your character was going to be a LG or NG divine type anyway, there's really no downside or reason not to other than some personal integrity, which isn't nothing but...

If you do at least a stint with the Radiant Heart you get the ring as well as a non-insignificant amount of XP from their own quest line (which I believe is also a draw, honestly) AND a built-in network of other well connected players who have to at least acknowledge you. Or you could not go the Radiant Heart route and.. be on your own. Seven is right to ask how you can expect otherwise, it's all upside. The nearest equivalent would probably be to be a pirate/assassin for the bonus XP, RP perks and special item but at least there you have quite a bit of social stigma as a drawback.

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:44 pm

Xerah wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:02 pm

The sad part is that the RH has been devalued since so many people are building their character around getting access to the ring.

I don't want to sound snide - but was this not inevitable?

You can make the same argument for the Harpers being devalued because of how strong Paragon was. You can make the same arguments about the upcoming Zhentarim because now it offers a build diversity for evil characters.

Because Radiant Heart, Harpers, and Zhentarim require only 3 levels of commitment to get Unlimited Access, you will inevitably have a whole slew of buildcrafters and players go,

"I can just swap out this dip for one of the above, it makes me better mechanically, gives me more access, maybe this concept didn't really fit verbatim the roleplay of RH/harper/Zhentarim but *shrug*"

All PrCs should be faction-less. TimeAdept had a good post about how he would convert all the Harper subclasses into generic PrCs. I still think that is the right choice.

Tying narrative to mechanics works very well in a table-setting. Not in an MMO environment UNLESS you're comfortable with things getting "watered down" and "devalued." Is it anything but inevitable?

I continually agree with Seven here. This was inevitable. The mechanical markers (outcast, pirate, etc.) limit the breadth of roleplay a character can achieve. Certainly the argument for their creation was to hold players accountable, but that accountability only matters if everyone abides by it. If radiant heart is watered down, remove the ring and the tag. Remove radiant heart as an NPC led faction and allow characters to invest in that particular brand of roleplay if they want - not compelled by mechanics but by story.

Emotionaloverload wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:06 pm

We had the beast belt trimmed and I hope the ring is next.

the best belt is 100% useless - it's wholly an RP item now. my character has multiple of them after being given them by champions; the benefit is entirely the cash now. it doesn't even show up in description, now.

i doubt anyone wants that sort of nerf for the RH rings.

I dont care about the ring mecahnically. I think it's the best option for the item slot but it does not enable any broken builds you couldnt do otherwise. Having 'space' for 1 more ac or 1 more con or 3 more discipline over everybody else is not game breaking.

What I really like is that the ring shows in description. I like it and I like that it shows ranks. To most it doesnt matter, but to that lone squire out there that meets a group of paladins, it can be quite exciting and RP-enabling.

AstralUniverse wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:55 am

I dont care about the ring mecahnically. I think it's the best option for the item slot but it does not enable any broken builds you couldnt do otherwise. Having 'space' for 1 more ac or 1 more con or 3 more discipline over everybody else is not game breaking.

What I really like is that the ring shows in description. I like it and I like that it shows ranks. To most it doesnt matter, but to that lone squire out there that meets a group of paladins, it can be quite exciting and RP-enabling.

I totally agree with this.
The ring is good, no one will deny that, but it is not game breaking. At most, you have more discipline, and you get the helm slot free all while still having three stats, or two stats and saves.

There are no builds that exist due to this, and if you compare the same build with and without the ring, the difference is marginal. And no one is dipping for the ring alone.

If anything, bring it in line with what can be created by players with runes, and do not remove the tag.